yeah 168 was created in the 80s...and middle and light heayvweight were prestigious
Does Marvin hagler lose points for never leaving middleweight
- Thread starter BrothaZay
- Start date
I never knew that.
NormanConnors
Detroit/MSU Spartan Life
I would have liked to have seen a rematch with Hagler and Hearns either at middle again or at 168 circa 1987
michael spinks vacates the light heavyweight title in 1985. jb williamson fights mama mohammed and picks up the vacant title december of that year. jb williamson then loses it to dennis andries in april 1986. tommy hearns knocks out dennis andries march 1987, becoming the lineal light heavyweight champion one month before hagler fights leonard. thats the light heavyweights. so now lets talk about hagler. hagler fights tommy hearns in april 1985, and in december of that year, could have fought for the title michael spinks recently vacated, against mama mohammad or jb williamson. i like hagler. hagler's first defense would be against dennis andries in april 1986. i like hagler. hagler would instead fight hard punching john mugabi march of that year, stopping him brutally in the 11th.
now, in 1987 tommy hearns fights dennis andries for the light heavyweight title and a month later hagler fights leonard. if hagler was light heavyweight champ in 1987, with wins over mama mohammad, jb williamson, and dennis andries, that means hagler fights hearns again in an epic rematch instead of losing, controversially, to leonard and retiring. who do you like? tommy hearns would ultimately vacate the light heavyweight title, and, by june of 1988, runs into a brick wall named iran barkley. that vacant title gets picked up by donny lalonde. who wins lalonde vs. hagler? i like hagler. if hagler beats lalonde, and i think he beats lalonde, that means leonard doesnt fight lalonde in july 1988. this time he'd have to fight hagler. who do you like?
it seems to me, hagler does alright against the light heavyweights, well, for one reason in particular: michael spinks moved up. had spinks never moved up, none of those guys would have ever moved up.
now, in 1987 tommy hearns fights dennis andries for the light heavyweight title and a month later hagler fights leonard. if hagler was light heavyweight champ in 1987, with wins over mama mohammad, jb williamson, and dennis andries, that means hagler fights hearns again in an epic rematch instead of losing, controversially, to leonard and retiring. who do you like? tommy hearns would ultimately vacate the light heavyweight title, and, by june of 1988, runs into a brick wall named iran barkley. that vacant title gets picked up by donny lalonde. who wins lalonde vs. hagler? i like hagler. if hagler beats lalonde, and i think he beats lalonde, that means leonard doesnt fight lalonde in july 1988. this time he'd have to fight hagler. who do you like?
it seems to me, hagler does alright against the light heavyweights, well, for one reason in particular: michael spinks moved up. had spinks never moved up, none of those guys would have ever moved up.
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the ultimate goal is to make money. All Hagler had to do was hold his position because SRL, Hearns, and Duran were coming up anyway. Hagler was pretty cut and was short guy. It probably wouldn’t be comfortable for him to put on more weight without compromising something and for what? So those other 3 can move their battles to middleweight while he miss out on all that bread? If he moved up we would’ve never saw SRL or Duran matches and if Hearns won middleweight title prob wouldn’t have been a Hagler - Hearns fight either.
Jesus Is Lord
Give Thanks, Repent, and Forgive
No, go down in weight. Not up. I understand all about the money and all of that other stuff, but in keeping with the premise of the thread... he still loses points and IMO he’s a notch below the other 3. Why? Because they ALL went to various weight classes and fought great fighters, win or loss. His body of work doesn’t compare to theirs. Doesn’t mean he wasn’t a GOAT boxer.
Dallas' 4 Eva
Superstar
Fighters very rarely move down in weight the older they get bro. It's either up or nothing.
Jesus Is Lord
Give Thanks, Repent, and Forgive
No, it’s not either up or nothing. Uncommon but very doable. Off top I think I remember Thurman, Kid Chocolate
and Gamboa doing it. I know B-Hop did it, and a few others back when.
chunky_mcdaniels
All Star
You could argue it's harder to stay at middleweight as you get older than to go up anyway.
you bring up an interesting name with B-Hop because his career at MW almost mirrors Hagler's. B-Hop stayed at MW all those years waiting for those WW's to come up. (Oscar/Tito/Ike) he toiled in obscurity for all those years while RJJ jumped from weight to weight making millions. he didnt go down in weight, he stayed put and let Tito come up to face him. this fight made him a known quantity, then he did a "catchweight" with Oscar which instantly tripled his bank account. Had B-Hop moved up, he likely never wouldve made the millions he ended up making because RJJ and Tarver didnt bring the $ of Oscar and Tito. Only difference is when Marvin was fed up with boxing, he was done, while Bernard chased checks and history.
It has to be REALLY worth it for a fighter to move down in weight, especially after he is close to or in his mid-30's.
Two instances off top where I knew it was going to be disastrous is when RJJ went back to 175 and when Dawson went back to 168.
Hagler was in tremendous shape, I just dont think he had the weight to lose without weakening himself.
Marvin was different, he couldve moved up after SRL. He said after that last fight he never so much put on a pair of gloves again or trained. I respect the hell out of that.
Jesus Is Lord
Give Thanks, Repent, and Forgive
Great post. However, Hagler still loses points IMO. He’s the only non-HW GOAT that I can think of that didn’t fight in another weight class. Foot staying on his neck.
chunky_mcdaniels
All Star
some fighters def do that..depending on competition AND/OR to increase a physical advantage they may have
to be clear, I am a big fan of guys who compete in different weight classes. I always think if I were in this person's shoes and I was a fighter thats what I would be doing. I would be snatching titles, no matter who holds them but thats not for a lot of fighters especially with the advice they get from their handlers. some guys dont want to fight a weak titleholder because they may not motivate them for whatever reason, be it not challenging enough, not enough $$$, etc...at the same time I can clearly see why Hagler didnt move up or down. actually, I thought Hagler was nuts for fighting guys like Mugabi but thats what made him special. its funny we praise fighters for cleaning out divisions but on the flip side we knock them for not moving up or down and then vise-versa.