Does anyone else see this as a flaw in The Dark Knight?

[TheGodling]

So again I ask what's Joker's true purpose... is he an agent of chaos hell bent on causing random destruction or is he just a loon that's obsessed with Batman and exists only to make him mad.

Not saying both versions don't work, just that the latter is a lot less scary.

Uhm, he's both? If Batman represents order in Gotham, than Joker is chaos. The two tangle forever for control but both may also be aware that without the other, they too would lose their purpose. It's yin and yang.

 

[MartyMcFly]

So again I ask what's Joker's true purpose... is he an agent of chaos hell bent on causing random destruction or is he just a loon that's obsessed with Batman and exists only to make him mad.

Not saying both versions don't work, just that the latter is a lot less scary.

It's possible for him to bean agent of chaos and a psychotic who wants to make batmans life miserable breh. The two don't have to be separate. The best villains are the ones that test the hero. Whether it's their mettle or their mental acumen or whatever it is. The ones that take their supposed strengths and use them as weaknesses while also exposing weaknesses. I'd argue joker killing Tim did more to hurt batman than killing batman. Just like him putting a wedge between Bruce and the bat family recently.

 

[Atsym Sknyfs]

Just like when he took his half of the money and burned it.. he doesn't care.
I see it as he's f'in with Bats to get him to break and reach his limit. If Bats dies in the process so be it... but he wants to be the one that kills him if he dies..
Joker is like that girl you like that doesn't like you that way.. but says and gets mad if you talk to other girls..
Its more of a cat/mouse .. say uncle ... 2 cars racing of the cliff .. type of thing..

 

[Atsym Sknyfs]

remember OP .. joker got arrested on purpose... And telling Bats he doesn't wanna kill him doesn't ruin anything.. think about it... all it does now in Bats mind is create a scenario where he sees Joker bothering him forever or he has to kill (which he wont) sooooo.. in the end who really won.

 

[Kill Dat Noize]

Uhm, he's both? If Batman represents order in Gotham, than Joker is chaos. The two tangle forever for control but both may also be aware that without the other, they too would lose their purpose. It's yin and yang.

i'm sure you can find examples in the comics to back this up, but to me this definitely sounds like something that came out of the deconstructionist era in an attempt to expand on their relationship and add more layers to it.

It's possible for him to bean agent of chaos and a psychotic who wants to make batmans life miserable breh. The two don't have to be separate. The best villains are the ones that test the hero. Whether it's their mettle or their mental acumen or whatever it is. The ones that take their supposed strengths and use them as weaknesses while also exposing weaknesses. I'd argue joker killing Tim did more to hurt batman than killing batman. Just like him putting a wedge between Bruce and the bat family recently.

i agree. i could definitely see joker making it his personal mission to tear batman down, no doubt about it. after a few years in the game he probably realized that he was never gonna be able to fully get rid of him so fukking with him would be the next best thing.

but not to prove something to him, because he got pleasure out of it.

 

[Atsym Sknyfs]

i'm sure you can find examples in the comics to back this up, but to me this definitely sounds like something that came out of the deconstructionist era in an attempt to expand on their relationship and add more layers to it.

Look at it like this.. Why doesn't Clark write a tell all article exposing Lex or Why doesn' t Lex kill supes... The writers are trying to show (after all these characters are over 50 yrs old.. don't wanna get stale) there are layers to their relationship the we the readers don't get and even layers that the heroes/villains don't get.

 

[Kill Dat Noize]

Look at it like this.. Why doesn't Clark write a tell all article exposing Lex or Why doesn' t Lex kill supes... The writers are trying to show (after all these characters are over 50 yrs old.. don't wanna get stale) there are layers to their relationship the we the readers don't get and even layers that the heroes/villains don't get.

I always thought that Lex DID want to kill Supes.

 

[Atsym Sknyfs]

I always thought that Lex DID want to kill Supes.

He had plenty of chances... he knows about kryptonite... then just kill him..
I know recently he was just toying with Supes to expose just how much he is like everybody else.. like the Cadmus arc in JLU

 

[MartyMcFly]

He had plenty of chances... he knows about kryptonite... then just kill him..
I know recently he was just toying with Supes to expose just how much he is like everybody else.. like the Cadmus arc in JLU

There's something that always bugs me and gets at my core when you're dealing with a villain who'd rather show the world you're no different than they are. To tear the hero down and turn them into what they hate most

 

[Atsym Sknyfs]

There's something that always bugs me and gets at my core when you're dealing with a villain who'd rather show the world you're no different than they are. To tear the hero down and turn them into what they hate most

Which brings this convo right back to the OP.. and the psychopath that we call the Joker... So.. no, I don't think its a flaw..

 

[Poetical Poltergeist]

There are a lot of nit picks I have with the tdk but this ain't one of em.

 

[ciubaca]

At least the joker is not some generic trash villain like in all the marvel movies that dont have loki

 

[lutha]

you would probably need to ignore a large majority of batman history in order for this to be true. joker has been trying to kill batman since their very first meeting in batman #1. you reference killing joke and yet you conveniently ignore the parts in that book where joker is SHOOTING at him and trying to STAB him.

i'm sure the character has evolved over the years, and it makes sense that after years and years of being each other's rivals that their relationship would take a bizarre yet more personal turn... but a joker that doesn't wish to see batman dead? that sounds perverse to me and another example of trying to fix what isn't broken.

and in the context of TDK, results in the movie having much lower stakes.

naw, i dont need to ignore it, you need to revisit it....the joker has had plenty of opportunities to kill bats and never has gone through with it....in fact, he's stopped others from killing batman....he wants to beat him, but beating him doesnt mean killing him....it means having batman break his no killing rule...

as for TDK: it doesnt lower the stakes because him wanting to test batman made everyone else a potential victim...hence him fukking with dent, rachel, the prisoners, the mayor, and everybody else in city....

 

[5n0man]

So again I ask what's Joker's true purpose... is he an agent of chaos hell bent on causing random destruction or is he just a loon that's obsessed with Batman and exists only to make him mad.

Not saying both versions don't work, just that the latter is a lot less scary.

He probably started out as a psychotic criminal who became obsessed with batman.

his goals changed from normal crime to tormenting the batman.

 

[MartyMcFly]

He probably started out as a psychotic criminal who became obsessed with batman.

his goals changed from normal crime to tormenting the batman.

Which is exactly what he said in the movie. Hire him to kill the batman and then he realizes that it's too much fun to mess with him and having him dead would make everything boring for him