Does anyone else see this as a flaw in The Dark Knight?

[Kill Dat Noize]

Wherever you stand on this movie I really don't care. This is not a hate thread, this is a discussion thread.

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Midway through the film Joker reveals to Batman that he has no intention of killing him, that instead he prefers to keep him around for his own personal amusement. He even goes as far to say that a world without Batman would sound dull and boring.

Does the audience member benefit in any way knowing that the main character in a superhero film is never in any danger of dying by the hands of the main villain? I mean yea sure it's a movie we all know the bad guy isn't going to win, but doesn't that really lower the stakes? Am I the only one that has a problem with this?

Why would this so called "agent of chaos" want Batman around when he's literally the only person in Gotham that can foil his schemes? The only way chaos can exist is in the absence of order, so if Joker was really about that action and wanted to achieve just that he would absolutely aspire to KILL Batman and not just merely corrupt him. I mean what's his real agenda here, to "watch the world burn" or to fukk with Batman?

And really what makes for a better, scarier villain? Would you be half as afraid of ISIS if you knew they had absolutely no desire at all to kill anyone?

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What say you film room brehs?

 

[Bryan Danielson]

DC Stans?

Anything yall want to say about this?

@Yo Yo Ma @gluvnast

Where yall at brehs?

 

[MartyMcFly]

Wherever you stand on this movie I really don't care. This is not a hate thread, this is a discussion thread.

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Midway through the film Joker reveals to Batman that he has no intention of killing him, that instead he prefers to keep him around for his own personal amusement. He even goes as far to say that a world without Batman would sound dull and boring.

Does the audience member benefit in any way knowing that the main character in a superhero film is never in any danger of dying by the hands of the main villain? I mean yea sure it's a movie we all know the bad guy isn't going to win, but doesn't that really lower the stakes? Am I the only one that has a problem with this?

Why would this so called "agent of chaos" want Batman around when he's literally the only person in Gotham that can foil his schemes? The only way chaos can exist is in the absence of order, so if Joker was really about that action and wanted to achieve just that he would absolutely aspire to KILL Batman and not just merely corrupt him. I mean what's his real agenda here, to "watch the world burn" or to fukk with Batman?

And really what makes for a better, scarier villain? Would you be half as afraid of ISIS if you knew they had absolutely no desire at all to kill anyone?

.
.
.
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What say you film room brehs?

I'd say the reason it doesn't bug me is because that relationship is so well done in that movie. But it's also hard to divorce my knowledge of their relationship from my head and look at the movie just as the movie. Jokers whole thing has been to fukk with batman and even in that movie him saying he doesn't want to kill him because he's having too much fun, is all a based in seeing how far he can push batman and how far he's willing to go. Joker likes to believe that everyone is as selfish and messes up as he is, so it makes sense that he'd take this figure for good, who's getting his Eliot Ness on, and see just how far that really goes. Shyt it was like that in the comics until recently with Endgame.

The other reason I'd say it works for the movie is because even if joker isn't going to kill him there's still the threat that something else could get him(cops, two face) and also his whole world is coming down around him at that point. By the beginning of the third act, he's lost the woman he loved, his escape route to a normal life was damn near burned to death because of mistake he made, and the city is continuing to go to hell.

 

[Kill Dat Noize]

I'd say the reason it doesn't bug me is because that relationship is so well done in that movie. But it's also hard to divorce my knowledge of their relationship from my head and look at the movie just as the movie. Jokers whole thing has been to fukk with batman and even in that movie him saying he doesn't want to kill him because he's having too much fun, is all a based in seeing how far he can push batman and how far he's willing to go. Joker likes to believe that everyone is as selfish and messes up as he is, so it makes sense that he'd take this figure for good, who's getting his Eliot Ness on, and see just how far that really goes. Shyt it was like that in the comics until recently with Endgame.

The other reason I'd say it works for the movie is because even if joker isn't going to kill him there's still the threat that something else could get him(cops, two face) and also his whole world is coming down around him at that point. By the beginning of the third act, he's lost the woman he loved, his escape route to a normal life was damn near burned to death because of mistake he made, and the city is continuing to go to hell.

yea joker can scar batman in other ways without killing him, but again if joker's prime motive is to cause chaos and expose the dark underbelly of humanity then batman is just standing in the way.

i don't recall that dynamic in their relationship always being a thing. as a kid i was always under the impression that joker wanted to rule gotham first and foremost, and that he would absolutely kill batman if given the chance.

in the laughing fish episode of B:TAS he binds Batman's hands behind his back and then throws him into a water tank with a live shark... then he closes the lid.

that joker is FAR scarier to me.

 

[MartyMcFly]

yea joker can scar batman in other ways without killing him, but again if joker's prime motive is to cause chaos and expose the dark underbelly of humanity then batman is just standing in the way.

i don't recall that dynamic in their relationship always being a thing. as a kid i was always under the impression that joker wanted to rule gotham first and foremost, and that he would absolutely kill batman if given the chance.

in the laughing fish episode of B:TAS he binds Batman's hands behind his back and then throws him into a water tank with a live shark... then he closes the lid.

that joker is FAR scarier to me.

Same joker that got upset when Harley almost really finished him off and then rescued Batman and apologized saying she didn't understand the rules though. That's the same joker you're talking about. And The Killing Joke illustrates that perfectly in the lines Batman says to him about their relationship and how one of them is going to end up killing each other because this is what they do. Batman won't kill joker because of his morals or code and joker won't kill him because it's too much fun to wind him up and fukk with him. Endgame is the one recent arc where he says enough of that because he's tired of it and it's just not fun anymore

 

[Kill Dat Noize]

Same joker that got upset when Harley almost really finished him off and then rescued Batman and apologized saying she didn't understand the rules though. That's the same joker you're talking about.

What is this from?

 

[MartyMcFly]

What is this from?

Mad Love. Written by one bruce timm and paul dini

 

[Kill Dat Noize]

Mad Love. Written by one bruce timm and paul dini

The Batman Adventures: Mad Love - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

sounds like he still wanted to kill batman breh...

When Joker arrives, however, he is infuriated that Harley would try to kill Batman herself and knocks her out a window, where she is found by nearby police officers. Joker then decides nonetheless to use the opportunity to finally kill Batman, which escalates into a wild chase ending atop a moving subway train. Batman taunts Joker by saying that Harley came closer to killing him than he ever did. Joker attacks him in rage, but Batman sends him lunging into a burning smokestack.

 

[MartyMcFly]

The Batman Adventures: Mad Love - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

sounds like he still wanted to kill batman breh...

The way I see it is that he'll always front like he wants to kill him and do anything to get him "out of the way" but in truth, he wont do it. I've never seen it that way. There were so many chances for him to do that but he hasn't. One for obvious logical reasons like we still need to keep telling a story, but also from a character standpoint, he only wants him completely out of the game when he's at his wits end and just not having fun anymore. Joker is psychotic and just wants to amuse himself. Fukkin with batman amuses him

 

[Kill Dat Noize]

The way I see it is that he'll always front like he wants to kill him and do anything to get him "out of the way" but in truth, he wont do it. I've never seen it that way. There were so many chances for him to do that but he hasn't. One for obvious logical reasons like we still need to keep telling a story, but also from a character standpoint, he only wants him completely out of the game when he's at his wits end and just not having fun anymore. Joker is psychotic and just wants to amuse himself. Fukkin with batman amuses him

there are countless instances in various cartoons/comics of joker actively trying to kill batman though, aren't there? and wasn't that version of the character around long before the one portrayed in TDK?

in "the man who killed batman" episode when joker learns that batman is dead he holds a eulogy for about 5 minutes and then suggests they order chinese food. again it's very obvious to me that he cares little about preserving batman.

but i guess it all depends on what version of the character you prescribe to. personally for me i believe he is a better villain when he is trying to rid gotham of batman. because that version wants to fukk with his head AND kill him.

 

[MartyMcFly]

there are countless instances in various cartoons/comics of joker actively trying to kill batman though, aren't there? and wasn't that version of the character around long before the one portrayed in TDK?

in "the man who killed batman" episode when joker learns that batman is dead he holds a eulogy for about 5 minutes and then suggests they order chinese food. again it's very obvious to me that he cares little about preserving batman.

but i guess it all depends on what version of the character you prescribe to. personally for me i believe he is a better villain when he is trying to rid gotham of batman. because that version wants to fukk with his head AND kill him.

That's real. The version I prefer is the one who wants to toy with him, push him, break him, possibly get him to break his rules and laws and codes and prove to batman that the two of them really aren't that different. Both versions work for different reasons and really just go with what fukks with you more

 

[King Koopa]

It was always for jokes when it comes to the Joker and his beef with Batman. This has been touched on the comics countless times as well. Joker doesn't need a motive. He just loves to troll Batman and to see if he can push him over the edge.

 

[Kill Dat Noize]

That's real. The version I prefer is the one who wants to toy with him, push him, break him, possibly get him to break his rules and laws and codes and prove to batman that the two of them really aren't that different. Both versions work for different reasons and really just go with what fukks with you more

But here's the problem with that version of the character... what if Batman dies? Would Joker continue to be a super villain or would he have an identity crisis? Frank Miller seems to think that in a world without Batman he would lose all sense of purpose and live out his days as a mute.

I don't like that version of the character as much solely for the fact that Batman can actually rid Gotham of the Joker just by ditching the cape and cowl. Because that version of the Joker only exists to be Batman's nemesis.

Whereas the classic version of the character, the clown prince of crime, in Batman's absence would most likely terrorize Gotham for all eternity and subjugate its citizens to a lifetime of fear and terror. Nobody would be able to stop him. He would rule Gotham. We NEED a Batman to protect us from that. He's the only thing standing in between us and a world that's living hell.

If it were just a personal thing between the two then as a citizen of Gotham I'd tell them to work it the fukk out already and leave us out of it lol.

 

[MartyMcFly]

But here's the problem with that version of the character... what if Batman dies? Would Joker continue to be a super villain or would he have an identity crisis? Frank Miller seems to think that in a world without Batman he would lose all sense of purpose and live out his days as a mute.

I don't like that version of the character as much solely for the fact that Batman can actually rid Gotham of the Joker just by ditching the cape and cowl. Because that version of the Joker only exists to be Batman's nemesis.

Whereas the classic version of the character, the clown prince of crime, in Batman's absence would most likely terrorize Gotham for all eternity and subjugate its citizens to a lifetime of fear and terror. Nobody would be able to stop him. He would rule Gotham. We NEED a Batman to protect us from that. He's the only thing standing in between us and a world that's living hell.

If it were just a personal thing between the two then as a citizen of Gotham I'd tell them to work it the fukk out already and leave us out of it lol.

I agree with frank and Scott Snyder and other writers who've taken that angle: without batman joker would be bored to death and not know what to do with himself.
And don't call it the classic version of the character breh. This version of the joker has been around since the 70s so you gotta give it both ways. Denny o'neil wrote him one way bill finger wrote him another. And artists have built on that ever since. And the longer they've both been around the more guys like Snyder and Miller and Moore and o'neil have come to define the relationship

 

[Kill Dat Noize]

I agree with frank and Scott Snyder and other writers who've taken that angle: without batman joker would be bored to death and not know what to do with himself.
And don't call it the classic version of the character breh. This version of the joker has been around since the 70s so you gotta give it both ways. Denny o'neil wrote him one way bill finger wrote him another. And artists have built on that ever since. And the longer they've both been around the more guys like Snyder and Miller and Moore and o'neil have come to define the relationship

So then that means Christian Bale needs to stop playing dress up and let this clown freak find something else to do for 7 years until Bane shows up.

Might have been a lot easier.