Do You See The United States Improving For Black Folk Now? (I Don't Have Faith Anymore)

[Kritic]

My claim followed a simple flow of logic:

Asians are a minority group in America = true

Asians are outperform Whites in the SEI index in America = true

Thus

It possible for minorities to succeed in America = conclusion

anyone can make it in america. anyone. that's why these new immigrants can come in and come up. but when you have a system targeted against you you cannot make it.
back in the 80s arabs could come up with reagan making a deal with iran. with all this islam terrorist shyt going on today that shyt ain't the same no more.

 

[kp404]

Exactly. But you noticed he refused to acknowledge this post and just told you "nice try." That's how you kill illogical arguments from Black neo-conservatives that like to shame blacks; when you present facts and a logical trend to how racial oppression operates, they either become argumentative and call you names like militant or they disappear.

 

[Queen]

If Asian Americans can be successful in america than its possible for us blacks to do the same too, imo.

The argument you are trying to make is lazy and highly oversimplified.

Are we are going to pretend that there have not been and are not currently government initiatives to deliberately sabotage the progress of so-called African Americans?

 

[Nomad1]

Well let me ask you this: To what extent is what you call our lack of "accountability" essential to transforming the oppression in Black America? What I mean is that since we do not own any of the means of production, the media, or the banks, how do we actively reshape our community without the necessary economic capital to do so and hold our community accountable? Make no mistake, I am not saying that we don't have gangs, and I agree they are a negative aspect of our community, but you are centralizing their role in our regression, which is incredibly illogical and dangerous.

Accountability for our own actions that feed into destructive elements that you noted before. Look at Atlanta's Black upper class; the same blueprint can be followed, if it were impossible than none of us (you, me, etc) would be successful today. There's black businesses today, but we don't actively support them because as a community we are individualistic (how are Koreans capitalizing off of the weave market and not Blacks?). We can overcome this but we don't do enough because we have large amounts of Black people that are apologists, and constantly make excuses.

 

[Nomad1]

Exactly. But you noticed he refused to acknowledge this post and just told you "nice try." That's how you kill illogical arguments from Black neo-conservatives that like to shame blacks; when you present facts and a logical trend to how racial oppression operates, they either become argumentative and call you names like militant or they disappear.

He wasn't arguing that;

i don't see white supremacists targeting asian americans with the police.
i don't see them actively destroying asian neighborhoods to this day. etc..

Now I am a Black "neo-conservative"? you nikkas mane.

Like I said before, nice try (switching arguments after you've been debunked @Kritic )

 

[AJaRuleStan]

I feel your point, but the bolded simply is not true. I'm doing my PhD on this subject so I've been through government documents, interviews tons of people, newspapers; plus the fact that I taught high school in a poverty stricken part of the city and was born in working class Atlanta and I can tell you that Black mobility in the political economy is not only stagnated, its regressed dramatically since the 1980s. Neoliberalism and drugs have massacred our population and removed jobs and the chance for Black progress from working class and poor to middle class and ruling class. It simply is not feasible the way the system is set up. We are meant to exist in the 2 bottom classes in this system. Its the status quo.

Now can we change this historical trend? Sure. But the only way for Black mobility is to restructure the entire system. Neoliberalism is designed to swell the bottom 2 classes to maximize the surplus value for the ruling class; Whites are actually feeling the crunch of the system now too as many of them are dropping out of the middle class into the working and poor classes; Blacks, because of our history and federal, state, and local policies, are hit the hardest.

Have you read the Kerner Commission Report from 1968? That's the government ADMITTING that Blacks are positioned in an inferior status economically and its coordinated...they admitted it explicitly and still did nothing to change it...why? Because its supposed to be that way in this system. Even though it is dated, those conditions continue to persist today and they are actually worse.

My point here is that we have to think more critically about the Black experience and our position than simply saying "one group can do it, so they can too." Its so much more complicated than that breh. We have a distinct historical and contemporary struggle that is directly tied to how the political economy, fueled by racist and gendered policies and practices, operates at all levels of society.

And to your last point, I am not a nihilist as my post history shows; I believe WE CAN change the system and we are actively doing so by organizing social movements and academics teaching and writing the real history and trends of the people; we can succeed. The greatest oppression is dialectically related to the greatest resistance from the oppressed. We broke the chains of slavery mostly on our own backs so we can transform this system too.

This seems more a problem with capitalism/human nature than a racial thing imo. Might be my interpenetration but this what I think you're saying, In this feudal like system we have tiers at which some group of ppl have to occupy for the entire system to function. The elite class is majority white because they made the system, so its only logical they put themselves in the highest tier. Also, its only logical they would like to keep themselves in this class because it doesn't make sense to purposely increase the difficulty/discomfort of ones own life, so out of this human physiological necessity they use their power as the elite class to prevent, or make it difficult for them to lose their tiers which in turn means keeping the lower classes stuck in their shyt tiers to prevent competition for that number one tier.

Also, it's only logical with how this system is design at this point that any presence of an outside group that is perceived different, i.e appearance, religion, region entering this system will have to start at the bottom tiers. Blacks for historical reasons were locked in the lowest tier because of the ruling class perceived them as most unlike themselves, and had pretty much zero opportunities to move out of their tier without somehow weakening the differences they shared with the elite which explains why light skin blacks historical had it easier when it came to mobility within this class system, and how the Irish, Italians, Polish, and Germans surpassed blacks within the system too.

Fast forward to 2015, now, I want to beg the question how has the system changed since its inception, if at all? Do you still think our system is design in way were the Elite class can prevent, or control the lower tiers from moving upward? I think you would agree socially and economically influence is linked to getting a good education for the most part because that can lead to higher chance of finding a good job. Back than the ruling class probably made this the least possible to ppl who they viewed as different, which by human nature was racial differences, but in today world could you make that same claim?

This is were I think me and you differ greatly! I don't think the elite can get away with riggin the game like they once could. They have to compete for their spot now, and i'm not sure race is the key variable that separates tiers anymore, but instead its poor vs rich type of thing. The nobels don't want to give up their spots to the peasant, and it just so happen, based on the past model, that blacks occupy that "peasant" tier; however, with the modern system it isn't up to rulling class anymore. They can't stop us from working hard and getting a good education to get better jobs and grow our influence. Well, that's how I see it.

 

[kp404]

Accountability for our own actions that feed into destructive elements that you noted before. Look at Atlanta's Black upper class; the same blueprint can be followed, if it were impossible than none of us (you, me, etc) would be successful today. There's black businesses today, but we don't actively support them because as a community we are individualistic (how are Koreans capitalizing off of the weave market and not Blacks?). We can overcome this but we don't do enough because we have large amounts of Black people that are apologists, and constantly make excuses.

Do you realize how TINY Atlanta's Black upper class is in comparison to the rest of the city??? They are only 12-13 percent of the city. So you want a trend to look like only a few percentage points to make it but the rest to continue to be economically deprived, politically isolated and silenced, and socially humiliated because that's exactly what's happening in Atlanta.

And you realize we have very few apologists in the Black community. See, you are making very generalized statements about complicated processes that you really don't know much about. So called "Black apologists" or what I call progressive Black activists and intellectuals are far and few between because of Black neo-conservative attitudes like yours that continuously target Blacks as the main problem instead of the polices and practices that have transformed this society into a neo-apartheid state.

Your rhetoric is pervasive in our community and its counter-productive; Black middle class elites have been condescending and criticizing the Black masses for centuries now, using the same argument as you, and NOTHING HAS HAPPENED except the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. So how do you answer for this historical trend other than the fact that Black middle class elites, like you, just want an excuse to insult the black community so you can say "hey I made it, so how come they can't? it's because they have no accountability." Its a bullshyt mentality, has no historical basis, and is counterproductive to addressing and solving the crises plaguing our communities.

 

[kp404]

This seems more a problem with capitalism/human nature than a racial thing imo. Might be my interpenetration but this what I think you're saying, In this feudal like system we have tiers at which some group of ppl have to occupy for the entire system to function. The elite class is majority white because they made the system, so its only logical they put themselves in the highest tier. Also, its only logical they would like to keep themselves in this class because it doesn't make sense to purposely increase the difficulty/discomfort of ones own life, so out of this human physiological necessity they use their power as the elite class to prevent, or make it difficult for them to lose their tiers which in turn means keeping the lower classes stuck in their shyt tiers to prevent competition for that number one tier.

Also, it's only logical with how this system is design at this point that any presence of an outside group that is perceived different, i.e appearance, religion, region entering this system will have to start at the bottom tiers. Blacks for historical reasons were locked in the lowest tier because of the ruling class perceived them as most unlike themselves, and had pretty much zero opportunities to move out of their tier without somehow weakening the differences they shared with the elite which explains why light skin blacks historical had it easier when it came to mobility within this class system, and how the Irish, Italians, Polish, and Germans surpassed blacks within the system too.

Fast forward to 2015, now, I want to beg the question how has the system changed since its inception, if at all? Do you still think our system is design in way were the Elite class can prevent, or control the lower tiers from moving upward? I think you would agree socially and economically influence is linked to getting a good education for the most part because that can lead to higher chance of finding a good job. Back than the ruling class probably made this the least possible to ppl who they viewed as different, which by human nature was racial differences, but in today world could you make that claim?

This is were I think me and you differ greatly! I don't think the elite can get away with riggin the game like they once could. They have to compete for their spot now, and i'm not sure race is the key variable that separates tiers anymore, but instead its poor vs rich type of thing. The nobels don't want to give up their spots to the peasant, and it just so happen, based on the past model, that blacks occupy that "peasant" tier; however, with the modern system it isn't up to rulling class anymore. They can't stop us from working hard and getting a good education to get better jobs and grow our influence. Well, that's how I see it.

We are both arguing the same thing here. Firstly, Capitalism has always been the dividing factor and socialization process here in America; starting with the indentured servants and Native Americans in Jamestown and other settlements, it is meant to create divisions and classes where only a few can succeed to maximize surplus value. Chattel slavery was implemented to further increase the surplus value. RACIALIZED categories and racism was then brought in to keep people divided and further the socialization process. Once commercial capitalism ended with slave trade abolishment in 1808, King cotton and agricultural capitalism BOOMED across the globe, thus giving white capitalists more need to increase racial divides. Laws were written and policies were passed that exist to this day. Following the Gilded Age, agricultural capitalism transformed into industrial capitalism and you have the first Black industrial working class created with the Great Migration, so again, white racist capitalists restructured their laws and policies to further racial divides so workers could not unite against capitalism. There was a moment during reconstruction when black and white workers could have united, but it was foiled for multiple reasons...

Fast forward to today: now it is neoliberal global capitalism and the racial divides are so deep and foundational to the system that they cannot be reformed. When housing policies, labor policies, social service policies, etc. are written and passed, they are based on these historical racist and unequal roots. The reason I went into the history is to suggest that its not simply race or capitalism, its BOTH. Its a racialized capitalist state. So you and I agree that capitalism is at the heart of the problem; but my point is that racism fuels the divides so that we cannot unite to combat the lack of resources in our communities.

To your last point to where they can't stop us from working hard. That is true. But they can prohibit you from having the resources to compete while working hard so that you only get to a certain level in the socioeconomic ladder. There is a great book called Outliers by Malcolm Gladwell you should check out. It argues that certain resources and historical foundations greatly determine how certain ethnicities and races are positioned in this society.

 

[Kritic]

He wasn't arguing that;


Now I am a Black "neo-conservative"? you nikkas mane.

Like I said before, nice try (switching arguments after you've been debunked @Kritic )

how do you expect to be taken seriously when your argument begins with gangbangers detroying the black community...

coli fuqqed hl up with bringing yall niccas from whereever you came from. can yall please bring hl back and ship these confused negros where you got them from.... "we are really our own worst enemy "

now we can't even get into a serious discussion i have to resort to trolling. there's no conversation your getttin from me at this point. i'm trolling from here on out...

 

[Nomad1]

Your rhetoric is pervasive in our community and its counter-productive; Black middle class elites have been condescending and criticizing the Black masses for centuries now, using the same argument as you, and NOTHING HAS HAPPENED

And nothing has happened for community despite apologists making countless excuses for communities for decades now.

that Black middle class elites, like you, just want an excuse to insult the black community so you can say "hey I made it, so how come they can't? it's because they have no accountability." Its a bullshyt mentality, has no historical basis, and is counterproductive to addressing and solving the crises plaguing our communities.

What's with these labels you're giving me? "Black middle class elite"? To put some blame on ourselves is not counter-productive, nor is it insulting our communities. But nikkas like you live in your own bubble.

Your whole argument is just making excuses for our conditions, that's it.

 

[Nomad1]

how do you expect to be taken seriously when your argument begins with gangbangers detroying the black community...

coli fuqqed hl up with bringing yall niccas from whereever you came from. can yall please bring hl back and ship these confused negros where you got them from.... "we are really our own worst enemy "

now we can't even get into a serious discussion i have to resort to trolling. there's no conversation your getttin from me at this point. i'm trolling from here on out...

How can you be taken seriously when you claim White Supremacists are "destroying or communities"?

 

[kp404]

And nothing has happened for community despite apologists making countless excuses for communities for decades now.

What's with these labels you're giving me? "Black middle class elite"? To put some blame on ourselves is not counter-productive, nor is it insulting our communities. But nikkas like you live in your own bubble.

Your whole argument is just making excuses for our conditions, that's it.

Ok breh. Like other neo-conservatives, you are set in your ridiculous ideas, so I'll just talk with the other brother who actually wants to engage in critical debate about our position.

 

[kp404]

How can you be taken seriously when you claim White Supremacists are "destroying or communities"?

Do you actually read what you write? You gotta be trolling here.

 

[Nomad1]

Ok breh. Like other neo-conservatives, you are set in your ridiculous ideas, so I'll just talk with the other brother who actually wants to engage in critical debate about our position.

The reason why you're not taking me seriously is because I refuse to make excuses for our people. Then you start getting insecure and call me an elitist (I grew up poor) and a neo-conservative (I vote liberal).

Engage with the other "brotha", he's already proving you wrong.

 

[Nomad1]

Do you actually read what you write? You gotta be trolling here.

Like White Supremacists "destroying" our neighbourhoods is specific enough? Bunch of nikkas that want all of us to have the same mentality, and viewpoint in politics and black issues smh