Do You See The United States Improving For Black Folk Now? (I Don't Have Faith Anymore)

[Nomad1]

How does population size even relate at all to what I claimed? I'm not understanding how the state of that variable changes anything or even follows my conclusion. And how is them "choosing" to come here relevant at all either?

My claim followed a simple flow of logic:

Asians are a minority group in America = true

Asians are outperform Whites in the SEI index in America = true

Thus

It possible for minorities to succeed in America = conclusion

I define "succeed" as being on similar socioeconomic levels with whites as a whole which I feel Asians prove that every minority group has the potential to do. I think Lations in the coming years will also bolster my argument as their influence continues to grow.


Okay, so you're saying that any success as a minority that Asians have in this country is solely because of their small population size in relation to other minorities? Can you even prove such a claim? And how does that even make sense; wouldn't the larger minority group have the advantage in terms of influence? Look at how Hispanic Americans influence increases politically as their numbers continue to grow, for example.

I am not saying I have done a deep analysis of majority vs minority threw history to argue for certain, but I find it really unbelievable that a smaller size for a group is a "benefit" especially when it comes to getting equality that is on par with the majority group. It seems like it would be the opposite.


I never once attempted to say that Blacks and Asians have the same history in this country; although, I seriously think your downplaying the fact that Asians were discriminated in the past like all the minority groups have been. Regardless, if you wan't to say Black ppl conditions can't improve because they've been historical oppressed by the elite whites in America because of racial differences than the same must be true for Asian ppl. Unless your saying that Whites are fine with only Asians outperforming them in today's world which I would view as a nonsensical talking-point.

Now I am not saying it ain't possible that Blacks may contain a property that Asians don't have which may be the reason for why Asians are more successful in this country atm, but I seriously doubt it has anything to do with difference in "discrimination" or "population size". Imo, you could argue culture which would make more sense to me, but that isn't a "U.S" fixable issue like OP is discussing, so that would be for a different thread.

Also, I really hope we don't slippery slope to the notation that Asians are not the same kind of "minority" as Latinos/Blacks, or that they're the same as Whites because they're not following a certain narrative. Because that is actually real racism, specifically, towards Blacks and Latinos imo.

ETHER

 

[kp404]

excuses that's all you saying

No, you just don't understand how the economic system in America works. It's ok, some other people don't either. Read up.

 

[Nomad1]

No, you just don't understand how the economic system in America works. It's ok, some other people don't. Read up.

I understand it. Somalis, Nigerians, Ghanians, Jamaicans, etc, own shyt in Toronto, and it's kinda improving. Why we are not on par with asians (who basically own shyt in Toronto) is because they're active politically and vote for their own people, which boosts (advantage) their Chinese businesses in their community.

"Asians are a minority group in America = true

Asians are outperform Whites in the SEI index in America = true

Thus

It possible for minorities to succeed in America = conclusion"

Ja rule stan put it beautifly. You're just making excuses for our community that's it.

 

[kp404]

I understand it. Somalis, Nigerians, Ghanians, Jamaicans, etc, own shyt in Toronto, and it's kinda improving. Why we are not on par with asians (who basically own shyt in Toronto) is because they're active politically and vote for their own people, which boosts (advantage) their Chinese businesses in their community.

"Asians are a minority group in America = true

Asians are outperform Whites in the SEI index in America = true

Thus

It possible for minorities to succeed in America = conclusion"

Ja rule stan put it beautifly. You're just making excuses for our community that's it.

So to be clear: you're saying that those are the only reasons why Asians and other minorities are successful and we are not? There are not any other components to racial capitalism that prohibit Blacks from gaining resources to opportunities to progress?

its funny that you mention political activeness since that's the only realm of progress Blacks have gotten in centuries; Black politicians, voted in power by Blacks and working class whites, have controlled the majority of the major urban centers in America for over 40 years, yet Black majority socioeconomic conditions continue to deteriorate across the nation... Jobs are disappearing, education continues to stagnate, and the working class and poor classes are swelling...why is that?

That's where the historical trends come into play as Blacks are positioned in this system to be immobile in the political economy. We as a majority cannot move the way neoliberal capitalism operates and its based on how we got here and our experiences over the past centuries. That cannot be ignored when looking at why our communities continue to deteriorate and how racial oppression transforms over time

 

[AJaRuleStan]

The point to all this that you typed is that there are specific historical and demographic reasons as to why SOME Asians (not all), but some are able to go into the Middle class in this country; those reasons have to be factored into why Blacks, as a majority, do not have the access to opportunities and resources to have mobility in the political economy. And yes, you have to discuss Asians' narratives when talking about their socioeconomic position or you're being disingenuous when trying to say that Blacks can do it because Asians do...that's simplifying a very complex and historical process where both groups have different paths to their current positions.

I admit, I haven't done an in-depth analysis on everything regarding this topic, but I feel like I took historical factors into question, and I still feel today that the opportunities for education with Blacks/Latinos/Asians are on equal footing which is basically the tool that the Asians took to move towards upward mobility. And I can't find any reason that made sense for explaining why some would say that elite whites are not giving the same amount of access to opportunities to Blacks for racial reason, yet they are for Asians. Why would whites discriminate based on race for one group and not the other?

Anyway, what I am getting from ppl who are making counter arguments is that Black people as a whole is a different "type" of minority than Asian/Latinos because our ancestors were slaves, Jim crow, civil rights, killing of black leaders, crack epidemic, and etc. Basically we as a group were oppressed on a higher degree, and had more setbacks than other minorities in the past. Well, okay than lets just give up and loot/burn shyt down and ignore what we could potential do with the opportunities we have right now. I am sorry, but I'm not submitting to the pessimistic narrative that we can't succeed because of what occurred in the past. You might a swell tell every black kid in America don't try to do anything with your life because you won't succeed because whitey treated us like pure shyt up until the 70s/80s. That shyt is so toxic and damaging.

 

[kp404]

I admit, I haven't done an in-depth analysis on everything regarding this topic, but I feel like I took historical factors into question, and I still feel today that the opportunities for education with Blacks/Latinos/Asians are on equal footing which is basically the tool that the Asians took to move towards upward mobility. And I can't find any reason that made sense for explaining why some would say that elite whites are not giving the same amount of access to opportunities to Blacks for racial reason, yet they are for Asians. Why would whites discriminate based on race for one group and not the other?

Anyway, what I am getting from ppl who are making counter arguments is that Black people as a whole is a different "type" of minority than Asian/Latinos because our ancestors were slaves, Jim crow, civil rights, killing of black leaders, crack epidemic, and etc. Basically we as a group were oppressed on a higher degree, and had more setbacks than other minorities in the past. Well, okay than lets just give up and loot/burn shyt down and ignore what we could potential do with the opportunities we have right now. I am sorry, but I'm not submitting to the pessimistic narrative that we can't succeed because of what occurred in the past. You might a swell tell every black kid in America don't try to do anything with your life because you won't succeed. That shyt is so toxic and damaging.

I feel your point, but the bolded simply is not true. I'm doing my PhD on this subject so I've been through government documents, interviews tons of people, newspapers; plus the fact that I taught high school in a poverty stricken part of the city and was born in working class Atlanta and I can tell you that Black mobility in the political economy is not only stagnated, its regressed dramatically since the 1980s. Neoliberalism and drugs have massacred our population and removed jobs and the chance for Black progress from working class and poor to middle class and ruling class. It simply is not feasible the way the system is set up. We are meant to exist in the 2 bottom classes in this system. Its the status quo.

Now can we change this historical trend? Sure. But the only way for Black mobility is to restructure the entire system. Neoliberalism is designed to swell the bottom 2 classes to maximize the surplus value for the ruling class; Whites are actually feeling the crunch of the system now too as many of them are dropping out of the middle class into the working and poor classes; Blacks, because of our history and federal, state, and local policies, are hit the hardest.

Have you read the Kerner Commission Report from 1968? That's the government ADMITTING that Blacks are positioned in an inferior status economically and its coordinated...they admitted it explicitly and still did nothing to change it...why? Because its supposed to be that way in this system. Even though it is dated, those conditions continue to persist today and they are actually worse.

My point here is that we have to think more critically about the Black experience and our position than simply saying "one group can do it, so they can too." Its so much more complicated than that breh. We have a distinct historical and contemporary struggle that is directly tied to how the political economy, fueled by racist and gendered policies and practices, operates at all levels of society.

And to your last point, I am not a nihilist as my post history shows; I believe WE CAN change the system and we are actively doing so by organizing social movements and academics teaching and writing the real history and trends of the people; we can succeed. The greatest oppression is dialectically related to the greatest resistance from the oppressed. We broke the chains of slavery mostly on our own backs so we can transform this system too.

 

[Nomad1]

So to be clear: you're saying that those are the only reasons why Asians and other minorities are successful and we are not? There are not any other components to racial capitalism that prohibit Blacks from gaining resources to opportunities to progress?

No. Im saying that's a big key to why the Asian communities are successful in the States and in Canada.

its funny that you mention political activeness since that's the only realm of progress Blacks have gotten in centuries;

That's true to an extent however, voter turnout in Black communities are abysmal, and we don't even come out to support our own in some cases. Look at Ferguson; People were shocked about how many White people control positions of power, but it's not so surprising since people out there don't vote (now that's a changing trend). Whose fault is that?

Jobs are disappearing, education continues to stagnate, and the working class and poor classes are swelling...why is that?

Well you already answered that. Neo-liberalism has taken a huge toll on our communities, but my gripe is the fact that we are making enormous amounts of excuses and don't at least blame ourselves for allowing these conditions to persist. Ironically, nuclear families in America were amongst the strongest for Blacks during the late and early 19th and 20th centuries, and systematic racism and discrimination were rampant in those days.

In 2015 I refuse to accept that Blacks can't play chess in America's economic and political system. With success stories in places like Atlanta (which I know had unique conditions for it to thrive today, but it can be used as blueprint), sourcing reports from the 1960s about the government admitting to fukking us up won't sway my opinion.

 

[Kritic]

If Asian Americans can be successful in america than its possible for us blacks to do the same too, imo.

i don't see white supremacists targeting asian americans with the police.
i don't see them actively destroying asian neighborhoods to this day. etc...

 

[Nomad1]

i don't see white supremacists targeting asian americans with the police.
i don't see them actively destroying asian neighborhoods to this day. etc...

You're being completely disingenuous. Lets not act like Asian success today was because of exploitation of other people, like whites have done. We are destroying our communities and more so than "White supremacists" (i.e. Gangbangers). I know some delusional militant is going to quote me and call me a c00n, but I lived in the ghetto during my younger days and this is the truth

 

[kp404]

You're being completely disingenuous. Lets not act like Asian success today was because of exploitation of other people, like whites have done. We are destroying our communities and more so than "White supremacists" (i.e. Gangbangers). I know some delusional militant is going to quote me and call me a c00n, but I lived in the ghetto during my younger days and this is the truth

Ok now you are being illogical. You are really trying to argue that "gangbangers" are destroying Black neighborhoods and not job loss and restriction to jobs, collapsing and racist housing policies, education restriction, crippling poverty, local and state budget cuts, the removal of welfare and other social services like childcare and Medicaid, and the list goes on and on and on....

You are really going to try and argue the Black on Black crime argument as to why Blacks haven't progressed economically in this country? Really? No, you're being disingenuous and illogical. I wouldn't call you a c00n, but you're analysis is ridiculous and I grew up in Black working class Atlanta except the difference between you and me is that I actually paid attention to my surroundings and how racial oppression operates;

 

[Nomad1]

Ok now you are being illogical. You are really trying to argue that "gangbangers" are destroying Black neighborhoods and not job loss and restriction to jobs, collapsing and racist housing policies, education restriction, crippling poverty, local and state budget cuts, the removal of welfare and other social services like childcare and Medicaid, and the list goes on and on and on....

You are really going to try and argue the Black on Black crime argument as to why Blacks haven't progressed economically in this country? Really? No, you're being disingenuous and illogical. I wouldn't call you a c00n, but you're analysis is ridiculous and I grew up in Black working class Atlanta except the difference between you and me is that I actually paid attention to my surroundings and how racial oppression operates;

No that's what you're saying, Im talking about accountability for our actions that help feed into destructive things you listed above.

 

[Kritic]

You're being completely disingenuous. Lets not act like Asian success today was because of exploitation of other people, like whites have done. We are destroying our communities and more so than "White supremacists" (i.e. Gangbangers). I know some delusional militant is going to quote me and call me a c00n, but I lived in the ghetto during my younger days and this is the truth

 

[Nomad1]

You never argued that (the post I quoted). Nice try.

 

[ralph lauren]

the world is alot smaller in 2015 than it was it 1619..

ima just get my money

If Asian Americans can be successful in america than its possible for us blacks to do the same too, imo.

Except asians dont have to deal with anti-blackness or crawl out of 400 years of racisim

 

[kp404]

No that's what you're saying, Im talking about accountability for our actions that help feed into destructive things you listed above.

Well let me ask you this: To what extent is what you call our lack of "accountability" essential to transforming the oppression in Black America? What I mean is that since we do not own any of the means of production, the media, or the banks, how do we actively reshape our community without the necessary economic capital to do so and hold our community accountable? Make no mistake, I am not saying that we don't have gangs, and I agree they are a negative aspect of our community, but you are centralizing their role in our regression, which is incredibly illogical and dangerous.