"DJ Hollywood and his crowd were the first rapping to the beat, not Herc's crowd" - Melle Mel

[IllmaticDelta]

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40-50 year old myths/lies finally being booted

I told yall years ago that all the early cats said they never heard any rapping (syncopated to the beat) at Herc's parties and they first heard rapping at the so-called "disco dj's" parties from the likes of Hollywood

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Flash himself said no one at Herc's parties was rapping; they just did freelance talking (Coke La Roc)

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Grandmaster Caz flat out said Dj Hollwood laid the blueprint for rapping

Caz:

"Dj Hollywood was the blueprint for the syncopated (rapping) style"

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Interesting riff between Herc and Bambattas camp (Zulu Nation) on the origin of HipHop culture. Who said there was no debate on the origins from the Og's?


Zulu Nation Says DJ Kool Herc Did Not Start Hip Hop And Is Misrepresenting The Culture

Herc is our brother, but when our family strays from us, we must first forgive them for mistakes, but let them know of their wrongdoings, and of course, welcome them back with open arms. We could go on forever about how many artists who are heavily a part of, or were a part of the Universal Zulu Nation, know and understand how serious this is. By no means should ANY of us attempt to change the course of history and flip it for a dollar or for accolades from an industry of Culture Vultures called “the media”, when we have known and still do know that many in the media want the false, doctored-up UN-truths, not the REAL truth. Especially when it comes to Hip-Hop. What is further disturbing is the falsehood that Kool Herc failed to respect the TRUE first ladies of Hip-Hop: ShaRock, Lisa Lee, Debbie Dee, Queen Amber. The women who were there ON THE MIC representing this Culture. Kool Herc went as far as saying his SISTER is the “first lady of Hip-Hop”. Kool Herc’s sister is also his marketing rep, and is part of promoting the falsehood that she (Cindy) is the “First Lady” of Hip-Hop. That’s NOT TRUE.

Kool Herc, aka Clive Campbell DID NOT BIRTH HIP-HOP CULTURE 40 YEARS AGO ON AUGUST 11, 1973. In fact, Kool Herc only did a Back To School JAM in the recreation room at 1520 Sedgewick Avenue in the Bronx. No emcees were present, no “Hip-Hop” was present (a term heavily used by LoveBug Starski and Keith Cowboy), and the Zulu Nation was already in effect. THIS is the reason for this message. Please get a pen and write this down, or go stand near the chalkboard and write this one hundred times to make SURE you remember: HIP-HOP CULTURE IS 39 YEARS OLD…ZULU NATION IS 40 YEARS OLD.

http://allhiphop.com/2013/08/20/zul...t-hip-hop-and-is-misrepresenting-the-culture/


A couple of interesting posts from Rahiem of Grandmaster Flash & The Furious 5, who came up in the Herc scene..

"I'm Rahiem of Grandmaster Flash & The Furious 5 and the minister of information of the Zulu nation is a clown and so is ANYONE else if after 40 years of Hip-hop culture and agreeing that DJ Kool Herc is the father of Hip-hop so why would that have changed after 40 years? I used to be in Bronx river when the Zulu nation began and the Zulu nation began in 1977-78 and Kool Herc began in 1973 so do the math and the Zulu nation were still the Black Spades during the "Blackout" of 1977 and shortly afterwards became the Bronx river organization and then the Zulu nation and honestly the people who are considered to be forefathers of the Hip-hop culture actually changed the game by adding to it and Everyone who was truly there you knew who did what and we know who set trends or brought something to the game to change it and Bambaataa and the Zulu nation didn't change the game! Grandmaster Flash Changed the game!!!!! Kool Herc is the genesis of the game and Bambaataa added what? More beats? STOP IT!!!!!!!!"

^^It's well known Herc is before Baambatta and Flash.


Now here is his take on how rapping started...

"Dancers that did a dance called the B-boying or that danced to Boioing music came directly from Kool Herc parties. Kool Herc's emcees didn't rhyme to the beat but they said catchy phrases that were adopted by emcees who expounded on what they were doing after Herc's emcees and then when emcees heard DJ Hollywood is when they began rhyming to the beat!"

Again, confirms everything I've said the whole time. Disco Dj's are the ones who started that syncopated rhyming (rapping) style. Totally different flavor from what Jamaican toasters/deejays were doing like U-Roy and the examples I gave earlier in the thread. Numerous people from the Herc scene acknowledge that there was no rapping in the Herc scene before like 1976 and that all Herc and his boys did was basically freelance shout outs.


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KID CREOLE from Furious 5

JayQuan : Peace ; its an honor to speak to you , what year did you start Emceeing and who made you want to Emcee ?


Creole : It was around ' 75 , Mel was hangin' out with Flash & them - thats how I got associated with Flash.

We used to go to Kool Herc parties ; really anybody that had equipment we would go see them in the parks. Herc was one of the few Djs that had legitimate equipment and he would have inside parties and charge people . They didn't have a distinction between who was the Dj and who was the Emcee , because all the Djs Emceed . Pete Dj Jones and those cats had the Hank Span Disc Jockey voice. Timmy Tim , Clark Kent and Coke La Rock were three guys who were down with Herc . Tim & Clark Kent would say phrases like " on down till the A.M. " or " back & forth / forth & back " - just lil phrases , not full rhymes. They would say either nursery rhymes or stuff that the Last Poets had said. My sister Linda used to write poetry , so thats how we were introduced to it in general . Tim & Clark Kent would say it to the beat ; even though it wasn't that rhythmic. It was like " A taste of the pace with the bass in ya face". Because it was done in that pattern we wrote rhymes that were to that pattern. So for me it was Timmy Tim , Clark Kent , My Brother (Mele Mel) and my sister.


JQ : Im told that you and Mel were the first to split words between each other & go back & forth.


CR : Yeah , when we first started rhyming we wrote everything together , so it was a natural progression.


JQ : How about the " throw ya hands in the air " and all the call and response tactics ;

are you all responsible for that ?


CR : We weren't the first , but it was an evolution. Hollywood had mad crowd responses like "where's that place we work it out?" And the crowd responded "at the Alps (hotel) is where we work it out". We thought it was so fly . Cowboy really excelled at that kinda thing , lyrically he wasn't at the level of me & Mel , but he had no fear of asking the crowd to say this or do that.

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From Markskillz,the HipHop historian

Ok, time to hype my own site. If you really want to get quotes on this subject ya need to check out the articles I've been writing for the last three years. I have covered this part of the story extensively the whole "disco side" of hip-hop thing. Go over to my site http://hiphop101a.blogspot.com and check it out for yourselves.

Here's Eddie Cheba
http://hiphop101a.blogspot.com/2007/09/ ... -yall.html

Here's Reggie Wells
http://hiphop101a.blogspot.com/2007/06/ ... tunes.html

Here's DJ Hollywood
http://hiphop101a.blogspot.com/2007/05/ ... ywood.html

Here's both Pete DJ Jones and Kool DJ Herc along with AJ
http://hiphop101a.blogspot.com/2007/05/ ... house.html

Here's the story of Disco Fever
http://hiphop101a.blogspot.com/2007/05/ ... fever.html

And finally in this one the Rise of Grandmaster Flash and the Furious Five you here from Mel himself what he heard Coke La Rock and Timmy Tim doing
http://hiphop101a.blogspot.com/2008/06/ ... se-of.html

Some basics that I have uncovered: Sometime in the early 70's deejays in Manhattan (more than likely KC the Prince of Soul started this) started talking "slick stuff" on the mic. Not to the beat and not even rhyming but saying slick s--t that flowed together. check the Reggie Wells joint for elaboration on that. Hollywood told me in the beginning of his career he was using that style to intro records, and then it progressed. At the same time Coke La Rock was talking on the mic as well. From all accounts he was not rapping as we know it today. In fact, when you read my story "Once Upon A Time in the Boogie Down Bronx" you'll see Kool Herc's take on the rappin'.

I gotta add to this conversation what Pete Jones told me - and he told Jayquan the same thing too, no one person created anything, it all emerged from different things. Mike Barnes, I read somewhere that Tee Scott and Walter Gibbons used to mix breaks in their sets, is that true, did you witness that? Those dudes were some real fly spinners in their time and they were doing their thing in the mid 70's too.

The point I've been trying to make for years is that no one's contributions should be dismissed. I have debated Bambaataa, Caz and Toney Tone on this very issue many times. Kool Herc shut me down as soon as I mentioned Hollywood, but, it ain''t just a coincidence that the man is credited by many many many many peo[ple as being the father of rap. Whether you like his style of rhyming or his rhymes or not, the man has been credited by people for being the father of rap for three decades. And I gotta add, during the period before records he was known on the streets in every borough as the king of rap. Don't agree don't listen to me just ask around... people from outside of the Bronx will credit Wood day and night. In the Bronx - no, them dudes front on Wood like its a contact sport. For real.

When I first heard Afrika Bam talking about Wood in interviews he would be very dismissive of him and say that he played disco for that hustle type crowd , the bourgeois Black type crowd. He said that so many times and always said the words "disco" and "Hustle" in the same sentence so that a person reading it would think: white suit and open silk shirt and white folks doing the hustle...

Not true. And not one reporter back then asked him to clarify that statement.

When I interviewed Wood, I asked him, so did you play at Studio 54? He said 'Oh hell no. I played for the hustlers. You know the brothers who were about their money and dressin fly who came sharp to the party. You know the powder people.

Which is a Big difference! He was playing for Freddy Myers, Guy Fisher, Bats Ross, Pee Wee Kirkland and people like that. That ain't the Steve Rubell/Mark Benacke crowd, oh hell no! Them dudes were in the streets for real!

When I interviewed Kool Herc he told me that he and Coke used to play at spots that were kind of sort of like 'Speak-easies" he told me. It was an older crowd, they were more mellow, so he couldn't rock APACHE he played things like T Plays it Cool. He told me that's where Guy Fisher and Bats Ross and them dudes would check him out at. Later Fisher and ROss would check him out at Executive Playhouse and Hevalo as well. So you see, how the two scenes would overlap?

And it Flash, Theodore, Starsky, Pete Jones, Wood and others to played on the same bill together from time to time.

The Bronx guys tried to juelz the Harlem guys out of hiphop history by saying they were doing Disco..knowing damn well rapping on the mic starting in Harlem by the cats they described as "disco dj's"

 

[tuckgod]

Coli scholar

 

[K.O.N.Y]

yo wheres mels family from @IllmaticDelta

 

[Captain Crunch]

 

[IllmaticDelta]

yo wheres mels family from @IllmaticDelta

as far as I know he's afram

 

[315]

Outstanding stuff. Regardless how you feel about it we should all appreciate the amount of research @IllmaticDelta does. Only the "you got a link?" generation won't appreciate

 

[Arithmetic]

 

[IllmaticDelta]

"they took my game, changed the name and then tried to say I wasn't a part of it"

 

[New Jeruzalem Journalist]

Appreciate the links, vids, and articles, but as far as what Melle Mel and Caz are saying, honestly, none of it is groundbreaking or unknown and it doesn't change Herc's standing as the forefather of the culture. It even states in the article that Coke La Rock was doing what he was doing with Herc at the same time DJ Hollywood came along.

 

[IllmaticDelta]

Appreciate the links, vids, and articles, but as far as what Melle Mel and Caz are saying, honestly, none of it is groundbreaking or unknown and it doesn't change Herc's standing as the forefather of the culture.

it's known to the people who were there but unknown an ignored by people who believe in 100% the herc myth

It even states in the article that Coke La Rock was doing what he was doing with Herc at the same time DJ Hollywood came along.

the article states that Coke La Rock was talking on the mic w/o syncopation i.e. NOT RAPPING (in 1973 for Herc/coke....Hollywood was in 1971); exactly what melle mel, caz, flash and countless others have all said

 

[newworldafro]

Interesting.

 

[K.O.N.Y]

"they took my game, changed the name and then tried to say I wasn't a part of it"

all for herc

i don't understand it

 

[K.O.N.Y]

so are we giving it to coke or hollywood

 

[IllmaticDelta]

so are we giving it to coke or hollywood

Hollywood was the first; coke didn't rap....he did freelance talking. Melle Mel and/or Caz was the first rapper in the West Bronx to rap (syncopated to the beat)



Quote From Kool Herc on how rapping started

With that in mind I wondered something: If Coke La Rock (Kool Herc’s MC) was just spittin’ little phrases on the mike, not full all out rhymes as we know it today, then who was the first real MC spittin’ lyric for lyric on beat with a continuous flow?

“Mr. Herc,” I asked him as I scratched my head and searched for the right words. “I’m curious about something.” I said, “Who was the first person that you saw rap as we know it today?”

Just then at that moment a warm smile enveloped Kool Herc’s street hardened face. He looked out the window across the street at Lake Merritt, almost as if he was looking back at that day, in a quiet voice he said, “It was Mele Mel… Mele Mel and Kid Creole. They were at a boxing gym on 169th St, in the Fort Apache area, as a matter of fact, it was the last place that I seen Big Pun alive at.”

In a quiet and almost somber voice he recalled the events while sometimes taking a pause to look down at his battle scarred hands. “They was in the middle of a boxing ring with these big Afro’s… Kid Creole, as little as he is, had one too. Flash was behind them cuttin’. When I saw them I just smiled cause I knew where they got it from…they got it from me. And they knew that they got it from me. I wasn’t mad. Mele Mel saw me in the crowd and just nodded at me. I laughed to myself.”

It must’ve been one helluva moment.

Hanging above the dimly lit gym was a thick cloud of smoke; it was a pungent mixture of cigarettes and reefer laced with angel dust. Stoned out dust heads tripped out as the dazzling display of flashing lights played psychedelic tricks on their minds. In the red light haze surrounded by stick up kids, gangsters and hyperactive b-boys Kool Herc got to see the first steps of his creation taking on a new dimension, as brothers Mele Mel and Creole were laying down the foundation for rap, as we know it today..

Hip Hop 101A: Once Upon A Time In The Bronx: The Rise of Grandmaster Flash and the Furious Five

Quote from Kevie Kev the captain of the L- Brothers, Leader of the Fantastic Four and Five M.C.s and a member once of the Furious Five M.C.s.

Q -The first m.c. you heard on the mic was one of Herc’s boy’s?



A -No, no, they wasn’t really m.c.ing, they just use to talk on the mic. The first m.c.’s I saw was Creole and Mele Mel.



Q- So what about Coke La Rock, did he also just talk on the mic?



A - Yeah he used to talk on the mic, little slurs or what ever, but he was like the strong arm to Herc’s crew. He was like the voice unheard, you know what I am saying, the low. That’s my man.



Q - As far as an m.c., did he get down like ya’ll did, because I have a lot of people that ask me about Coke La Rock?



A - No, it’s different, it was totally different. If we used to try to rhyme, he used to just talk.



(interviewer) Right.



A -Like a real m.c., a master of ceremony.

FANTASTIC

 

[sunny80]

Herc already said the culture was there before he even started. Props to you for doing the research.