"DESTINY" 2014-15 Chicago Bulls Season Thread

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

I'm just more comfortable with Snell guarding a perimeter player than I am with Mirotic.

I guess common sense really isn't all that common though.

Common sense would also tell you that the personnel with this team and health is the problem - not the coaching.

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

Snell didn't look an Nba player when Jimmy got injured?Game 4 against the Bucks?His limited minutes in Game 4?

I have no idea why dude is riding so hard for Thibs. It's like he's not watching the games.

And what about Game 5 when he had similar minutes and played like he didn't belong in the league?

Can you see that the fact we're even discussing the importance of a player that's lucky to be in a rotation speaks more about the recruitment/drafting o this team than the actual coaching. I mean after all the players that have flourished under Thibs yall wanna single out Tony Snell? Not even Pop is held to this type of standard.

 

[GoldenGlove]

You're putting an unreasonable amount of accountability on Thibs and you wanna talk about justification?

That's not going into detail - that's blatantly selecting three plays that you've twisted into blaming Thibs' playcalling:

one of which opened up Butler for a open shot - he didn't need to take that three, there was still room to go baseline because clearly the play was designed to get him open, not necessarily to take a 3. Butler just hit TWO 3-pters near the end of the 4th quarter, so both realms of possibility exist that Thibs either wanted him to take that 3 because he had just made two over the last three possessions or he left it up to Butler to take the shot that he wanted.

one of which Butler took too long to come back around the pick after losing James. It was a risky play, especially with 3 secs on the shotclock, but it was necessary if Thibs thought a catch-and-shoot situation would be better than Butler just hoisting up a shot with Bron draped all over him.

And one of which that wasn't executed properly. Miss-timed pass by Noah and Butler didn't cut at the appropriate time to receive the pass. Carlisle often runs this play to catch the player marking the inbounds pass out of position with a two-man combination of Monta/Parsons/Dirk.

Rose missing his last 10 shots, with that troubled wrist also played a part in what plays were called as well.

There's nothing unreasonable with Thibs taking Mirotic out for Snell for the defensive matchup.

There's nothing unreasonable about not wanting to take a quick shot down 2 with 20 seconds on the shot clock with 47 seconds to go in the game. If Thibs didn't care if he took a shot that quick, let alone one where he's off balance then he's a fukking idiot. It's inexcusable. Even if Jimmy hits that fall away off balance 3, it's still not a good play call in that situation.

And the shyt with Noah with 3 seconds on the shotclock isn't a risky play, it's a moronic play.

I'm not twisting anything. I didn't have to go back and look at anything, I said this all to myself as it was going on that it was retarded, and the plays that directly resulted out of these "risky" play calls sides in my favor.

And even if Rose is hurting, you still implement him in the play, period. Rose didn't touch the ball in any of these plays. Worst case you use him to set up something off of him, CLE isn't worried about Noah catching the rock at the top of the key more than they are of Rose doing the same. You can't be serious right now.

 

[GoldenGlove]

Common sense would also tell you that the personnel with this team and health is the problem - not the coaching.

Yup, common sense just isn't all that common.

And what about Game 5 when he had similar minutes and played like he didn't belong in the league?

Can you see that the fact we're even discussing the importance of a player that's lucky to be in a rotation speaks more about the recruitment/drafting o this team than the actual coaching. I mean after all the players that have flourished under Thibs yall wanna single out Tony Snell? Not even Pop is held to this type of standard.

Snell didn't even play 5 minutes in Game 5. Took 1 shot, he only played in the 1st quarter then didn't see the floor again. What plays specifically are you talking about where he didn't look like he belonged in the league?

And no need for a paragraph. Like I've been telling you, Tony Snell would defend Iman Shumpert better than Niko Mirotic, he would also switch the pick and roll onto Lebron better than Niko Mirotic. It's really not rocket science. You choose to ignore this, but it's okay, I'll continue to reiterate it for you.

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

Clippers, Memphis, Blazers, Milwaukee, Brooklyn, Celtics

If he was actually utilized and developed properly from October he could fit into any of those rotations. Thibs never gave him anything near a consistent role unless injuries forced him

Clippers - nah, because the extra wing spot is taken up by Turkoglu - who Doc wanted for his experience. A late first-round second-year player was not going to be taking his spot in the rotation
Memphis - nah, Allen, Green and Carter take up all the wing minutes
Blazers - nah, there's no room in the rotation with Matthews, Afflalo, McCollum, Batum - Gee and Crabbe would even be ahead of him.
Bucks - nah, Middleton, Mayo, Giannis and Dudley take up the wing spots
Nets - nah, Johnson, Bogdanovic and Anderson occupy those spots - they're a vet team, no second-year limited player would replace them in the rotation
Celtics - nah, since Bradley, Turner and Crowder are the main wing options - James Young is the spot in, and even though Stevens is fond of him, he still isn't in the rotation.

Just like every other fringe player he never really showed any consistency or ability to warrant giving him more minutes - plus lets not act like there isn't at least ONE player on every other team in the league who isn't in a similar position to Snell. I mean are we really arguing about Thibs failing to play a player that hasn't even looked like he's ready to have a consistent place in an NBA rotation? I mean really?

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

There's nothing unreasonable with Thibs taking Mirotic out for Snell for the defensive matchup.
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Can't you see that centering around these matchups isn't the problem. Yes Snell would have been more appropriate, but like I said before, ask yourself why is this there degree of liability on the coach when he's not been given the right personnel to begin with?

We're talking about blaming a coach for not playing a young late first-rounder who has a limited amount of talent and who's been inconsistent over the course of the season.

There's nothing unreasonable about not wanting to take a quick shot down 2 with 20 seconds on the shot clock with 47 seconds to go in the game. If Thibs didn't care if he took a shot that quick, let alone one where he's off balance then he's a fukking idiot. It's inexcusable. Even if Jimmy hits that fall away off balance 3, it's still not a good play call in that situation..

I'm guessing Thibs put trust in Butler to take a shot he thought would be best, he designed a play to get him open and let Butler do the rest. There's nothing unreasonable about wanting a better shot, but don't automatically blame Thibs for Butler taking that specific shot. You're only viewing it in this light because it's clear you have an agenda against him.

I'm not twisting anything. I didn't have to go back and look at anything, I said this all to myself as it was going on that it was retarded, and the plays that directly resulted out of these "risky" play calls sides in my favor.

I went back and had a look. There was one risky play, the other two just weren't executed properly. Probably due to fatigue and miscommunication. You needa come up off that that rise if you think Thibs is the only one that has 'bad' playcalling. Just about every single coach in these playoffs has made questionable decisions late in-games - Pop, Carlisle, Doc, Stevens - all of them have.

You wanna talk about Thibs not playing a fukkin limited two-year player in the rotation during a small period of the game - Spurs fans had to deal with Pop not bringing in Kawhi to defend Paul on crucial possessions in Game 7 and failing to utilize Mills properly all throughout the series - amongst all the lineups that allowed the Clippers to go on extended runs instead of changing them up.

And even if Rose is hurting, you still implement him in the play, period. Rose didn't touch the ball in any of these plays. Worst case you use him to set up something off of him, CLE isn't worried about Noah catching the rock at the top of the key more than they are of Rose doing the same. You can't be serious right now.

Butler had the hot hand. Rose was limping and had issues handling and shooting the ball. Could he have allowed Rose to play more of a part? Absolutely. But was it a decision that decided the game? Nah. Rose missed 10 shots in a row leading up to that point, clearly there was something wrong with him. If he was fine and was cookin, you'd have more of an argument, but as it stood, he wasted possession after possession after possession because he wasn't right. The fact they were even in that deficit to begin with was partly because of Rose's inability to hit a shot, and you wanna talk about a few fukkin plays at the end of the game where Thibs' implication in plays not being executed properly or not going to a player who had been struggling for the whole second half as the reason for why this team lost?

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

Yup, common sense just isn't all that common.

Common sense also says that this standard your holding Thibs to - doesn't exist anywhere else in the league. Yeah he has his flaws, but so does every other coach in the league. And you're certainly not going to find another one that would have this group playing any better.

Snell didn't even play 5 minutes in Game 5. Took 1 shot, he only played in the 1st quarter then didn't see the floor again. What plays specifically are you talking about where he didn't look like he belonged in the league?

I'm talking about Game 5 against the Bucks.

And no need for a paragraph. Like I've been telling you, Tony Snell would defend Iman Shumpert better than Niko Mirotic, he would also switch the pick and roll onto Lebron better than Niko Mirotic. It's really not rocket science. You choose to ignore this, but it's okay, I'll continue to reiterate it for you.

You're failing to see the bigger picture here. It's not about whether he would defend Shumpert better or not. It's about why he's even there to begin with, and why you're acting as if though Thibs failing to use a player of his ability is a talking point for why they lost.

 

[GoldenGlove]

Can't you see that centering around these matchups isn't the problem. Yes Snell would have been more appropriate, but like I said before, ask yourself why is this there degree of liability on the coach when he's not been given the right personnel to begin with?


We're talking about blaming a coach for not playing a young late first-rounder who has a limited amount of talent and who's been inconsistent over the course of the season.

That's all that needs to be said. Thanks.

As for you shytting on Snell, he's gotten inconsistent minutes because Thibs is horrible at developing young players. He did the same thing with Jimmy Butler. You would share the same sentiments about Jimmy if not for Deng getting hurt and Thibs being forced to play him. When Snell plays consistent minutes he's not bad and he's shown he's an NBA player, not a D-Leaguer.

Per 36 Minutes:
Snell - 11ppg / 4.5rpg / 1.6apg
Percentages - 2PT 49% / 3PT 37% / Overall 43%

I'm guessing Thibs put trust in Butler to take a shot he thought would be best, he designed a play to get him open and let Butler do the rest. There's nothing unreasonable about wanting a better shot, but don't automatically blame Thibs for Butler taking that specific shot. You're only viewing it in this light because it's clear you have an agenda against him.

I went back and had a look. There was one risky play, the other two just weren't executed properly. Probably due to fatigue and miscommunication. You needa come up off that that rise if you think Thibs is the only one that has 'bad' playcalling. Just about every single coach in these playoffs has made questionable decisions late in-games - Pop, Carlisle, Doc, Stevens - all of them have.

I don't know... to draw a play up for a 3 in that situation just doesn't make sense to me at all. I said the same thing when New Orleans did it in that Game 3 collapse with Eric Gordon. Down 2, late, no need for a 3. I understand that Jimmy has the final call cause he's playing the game, but the play to me clearly looked like he was going for a 3. Thibs got pissed when they asked him about it in the post game too. "Was he wide open? Ok then"... Yeah he was wide open, but was that really the best option given the situation? And I could give him the benefit of the doubt if his offense and his inbound plays for the most part didn't look like complete shyt. Going back and rewatching some of these plays, I have no idea what the fukk this team is doing coming out of these timeouts or what the goal is for some of these sets.

You wanna talk about Thibs not playing a fukkin limited two-year player in the rotation during a small period of the game - Spurs fans had to deal with Pop not bringing in Kawhi to defend Paul on crucial possessions in Game 7 and failing to utilize Mills properly all throughout the series - amongst all the lineups that allowed the Clippers to go on extended runs instead of changing them up.

Yeah, I actually do want to talk about it because small periods in games like this can determine the outcome.

Taj picked up his 4th foul around the 5 or 6 minute mark. The Bulls were down 3, and that's when Niko got in the game to finish the quarter. Kyrie splashed 2 3s during this span, and JR hit a few shots... but the entire time the Cavs were playing with 4 perimeter players. The lead went from 3 to 12 prior to the end of the quarter and Niko hitting that halfcourt shot. Seems to me like that small period in the game actually was a big period in the game to me.

Butler had the hot hand. Rose was limping and had issues handling and shooting the ball. Could he have allowed Rose to play more of a part? Absolutely. But was it a decision that decided the game? Nah. Rose missed 10 shots in a row leading up to that point, clearly there was something wrong with him. If he was fine and was cookin, you'd have more of an argument, but as it stood, he wasted possession after possession after possession because he wasn't right. The fact they were even in that deficit to begin with was partly because of Rose's inability to hit a shot, and you wanna talk about a few fukkin plays at the end of the game where Thibs' implication in plays not being executed properly or not going to a player who had been struggling for the whole second half as the reason for why this team lost?

I don't care how many shots Rose missed leading up to those plays. I'm not saying he has to shoot in those situations, I'm saying he should touch the ball. And Rose was still out there shooting and driving the lane so he wasn't incapable of making a play for somebody else. I don't think the Cavs cared how hurt he was, they were going to respect him as a threat anytime he touched the damn ball. Lebron was 9-29 before he hit the game winner in Game 4. Here we are in Game 5 and Rose is taking the ball out with 47 seconds left.

 

[GoldenGlove]

You're failing to see the bigger picture here. It's not about whether he would defend Shumpert better or not. It's about why he's even there to begin with, and why you're acting as if though Thibs failing to use a player of his ability is a talking point for why they lost.

Not really, I'm more heated on the play calls that I mentioned with the game on the line then him not playing Snell.

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

nikka JAMES JONES WOULDNT BE ON A NBA ROSTER
IF NOT FOR BRON PULLING STRINGS
LET ALONE A PLAYOFF ROSTER
AND THAT DUDE IS CONTRIBUTING IN THE PLAYOFFS​

​

Jones is a veteran 3-pt shooter and is only averaging 3 more minutes than Snell in this series. If Love wasn't injured he'd hardly be used at all, since he's had minutes at the 4 in small ball lineups.

SO YOU GOTTA GET THE fukk OUTTA HERE
WITH THAT shytTY LOGIC.

​

The shytty logic is yall scapegoating Thibs for not playing Snell, when he shouldn't even be in rotation for a team looking to contend for a title in the first place.

SNELL IS A SOLID PLAYER...
A D & 3 GUY WITH SLASHING ABILITY
WHO SHOULD HAVE BEEN GUARDING CLEVELANDS SHOOTING GUARDS
INSTEAD OF HAVING OUR POWER FORWARD DO IT.​

​

That's an empty summary that could describe a number of players who're D-League status. I couldn't really give a fukk about him being in there to defend the Cavs shooters - when it's only a superficial wound compared to all the gaping problems with this squad.

​

WE GOT IT DOWN TO 1PT IN THAT 3RD
AND THIBS LEFT NIKO OUT THERE
AND IT GOT EXPLOITED.

LITTLE shyt LACK THAT HAS KILLED US THIS WHOLE SERIES.



​

Yall overstating how much Niko played in the Cavs extending the lead - he was only directly/indirectly responsible for allowing three buckets (either through one-on-one or missed rotations) during that run. One with Shumpert taking him off the dribble, one helping Butler on Bron where he made a lucky And-one in the 3rd quarter and a PNR alley-oop with TT in the 4th quarter (he wouldn't have been out there if Gibson wasn't ejected), which Snell wouldn't have stopped.

So really he only allowed TWO buckets during that late 3rd quarter/early 4th quarter run where they went up 17 points and only ONE of those two buckets where Snell would've been a more suitable matchup (possession where Shumpert took Mirotic off the dribble and scored). That's only two points that Snell could've stopped

The problem was the Cavs went on a run, and the Bulls' anemic offense couldn't come close to matching it. Replacing Mirotic with Snell (who had 6 points and 1 assist - equal most points with Dunleavy over that period), wouldn't have made a difference.

 

[Rice N Beans]

All I can say is if Thibs is here next year he seriously needs an offensive assistant upgrade. He can't sub right so he may as well let someone else do it. Boy oh boy does he jack shyt up when it comes to rotations.

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

That's all that needs to be said. Thanks.

As for you shytting on Snell, he's gotten inconsistent minutes because Thibs is horrible at developing young players. He did the same thing with Jimmy Butler. You would share the same sentiments about Jimmy if not for Deng getting hurt and Thibs being forced to play him. When Snell plays consistent minutes he's not bad and he's shown he's an NBA player, not a D-Leaguer..

Deng was never going to stay, regardless if he was injured or not. Butler was always going to fill that void. And how is Thibs horrible at developing young players when Butler has had the largest progression out of any player in the last decade? You can't take away the responsibility that Thibs has given Butler and use a vacuous and disingenuous account of him only doing so because Deng got injured.

The Bulls have never been a rebuilding team since Thibs arrived, and the FO hasn't drafted players of any notability that would warrant being included in a squad that's ready to contend, so it's not like Thibs has been in a position to coddle rookies and grooming them when the Bulls have more or less been in win-now mode since he arrived.

And are you forgetting about the players that were added to the team that have performed to the best of their abilities or had their career's revived -

Augustin, Robinson, Brooks, Gasol etc etc.

Butler was a quite literally nobody last season - now he's the MIP in the league and one of the very few elite two-way wings in the league

Gasol was supposedly finished last season - now he just came off one of his best season's of his career and was arguably the best performing big man in the East.

Per 36 Minutes:
Snell - 11ppg / 4.5rpg / 1.6apg
Percentages - 2PT 49% / 3PT 37% / Overall 43%
.

You can make any fringe player's numbers look adequate by microwaving them to 36 minutes. The point is he's still a John Doe type until proven otherwise. He had a good a 10-game stretch in February and when he was given even more minutes in March when Butler went down he looked just like another player that was only in the rotation because of injuries, and wouldn't be there otherwise.

Yeah, I actually do want to talk about it because small periods in games like this can determine the outcome.
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Then you're not looking at the larger, more detrimental problems.

Taj picked up his 4th foul around the 5 or 6 minute mark. The Bulls were down 3, and that's when Niko got in the game to finish the quarter. Kyrie splashed 2 3s during this span, and JR hit a few shots... but the entire time the Cavs were playing with 4 perimeter players. The lead went from 3 to 12 prior to the end of the quarter and Niko hitting that halfcourt shot. Seems to me like that small period in the game actually was a big period in the game to me.

Niko was only directly/indirectly responsible for letting the Cavs score two buckets that Snell would've otherwise defended on during that Cavs run where they went up 17 points. The only possession out of those two where Snell maybe would've stopped the Cavs from scoring was when Shump took Niko off the dribble and scored in the paint.

Like I said above - Niko scored 6 points (equal most with Dunleavy) over that period - replacing him with Snell wouldn't have made a difference. The Cavs went on a run making contested shot after contested shot that the Bulls offense couldn't match.

Cavs hit their shots over that stretch and the Bulls didn't. It's as simple as that. In Snell's current state, he isn't this great All-Star player that would provided more impact than what Niko had. It's not some great injustice that Snell wasn't used instead. If you analyzed every coaches' questionable lineups - Thibs' indiscretions would pale in comparison to 90%+ of the coaches in the league.

I don't care how many shots Rose missed leading up to those plays. I'm not saying he has to shoot in those situations, I'm saying he should touch the ball. And Rose was still out there shooting and driving the lane so he wasn't incapable of making a play for somebody else. I don't think the Cavs cared how hurt he was, they were going to respect him as a threat anytime he touched the damn ball. Lebron was 9-29 before he hit the game winner in Game 4. Here we are in Game 5 and Rose is taking the ball out with 47 seconds left.

Look I'm not saying that Thibs shouldn't have had the ball go through his hands during those possessions, I'm explaining to you why it didn't and you can't really fault Thibs for that. This is one of the rare times where Rose didn't have the ball late in-games.

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

All I can say is if Thibs is here next year he seriously needs an offensive assistant upgrade. He can't sub right so he may as well let someone else do it. Boy oh boy does he jack shyt up when it comes to rotations.

Or maybe he just needs better personnel rather than trying to utilize players with limited-ability that other coaches in the league wouldn't do any better at

 

[Rice N Beans]

Or maybe he just needs better personnel rather than trying to utilize players with limited-ability that other coaches in the league wouldn't do any better at

An offensive assistant would be his personnel. Unless you mean the higher ups.

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

An offensive assistant would be his personnel. Unless you mean the higher ups.

By personnel I mean players. Players with actual talent.

Besides Rose, this Bulls have needed to count on a 34-year-old big man who looked 'finished' in LA and a player drafted with the 30th pick - who was never meant to be any more than a role player. Thibs turned sewer water into wine. What other coaches in the league would've been given the barest essentials and then expected to turn it into success?

The standard that Thibs is held to is absolutely ridiculous. He's got the second highest win% amongst coaches, which is INSANE considering his franchise player has been injured for 60% of the time he's been coaching in Chicago and dudes EXPECT more. I mean what the fukk are all the other coaches in the league doing to escape this type of accountability if he's got a better record than 96% of them, all without his #1 player for the majority of his tenure in Chicago?

I'd hate to see every coaches record if they had to deal with their best player being out for most of the last three to four seasons.

Complaining about Thibs is the equivalent to complaining about Kevin Durant. I just simply don't understand it.