Could Winter Soldier be the best superhero movie ever made?

[Kill Dat Noize]

A character like Batman is there to remind us that we too can push ourselves to be smarter, stronger and more capable simply through will and determination and focus. That we too could overcome some awful heinous shyt in order to do something with it and turn that sadness into some sort of triumph. He's there to inspire people to be that, but in dark knight, and other batman stories, he's there to inspire us to make the hard choices and to do what we have to do sometimes, even if it's to our own detriment. A true hero does that breh; you do what's necessary, even if it sucks.

duly noted

i guess i just prefer it more when our superhero is firmly on the side of good, our supervillain is firmly on the side of evil, and there are no moral dilemmas or shades of grey to be had. i don't mind it when it comes to something like watchmen obviously, which was intended to deconstruct the genre and approach it from a more real world sentiment, but not for batman. good might not always triumph over evil in the real world but gotham city was not meant to be the real world and batman was not meant to be an ordinary hero. batman is supposed to be an unstoppable, unyielding force for good. we look up to characters like these precisely because they fight the battles that we cannot, and because they do it proudly and with their heads held high.

i just don't get the sense that evil was truly punished in TDK. batman is forced to take too many L's and joker doesn't even appear to be phased by his capture.

 

[Grifter]

 

[MartyMcFly]

duly noted

i guess i just prefer it more when our superhero is firmly on the side of good, our supervillain is firmly on the side of evil, and there are no moral dilemmas or shades of grey to be had. i don't mind it when it comes to something like watchmen obviously, which was intended to deconstruct the genre and approach it from a more real world sentiment, but not for batman. good might not always triumph over evil in the real world but gotham city was not meant to be the real world and batman was not meant to be an ordinary hero. batman is supposed to be an unstoppable, unyielding force for good. we look up to characters like these precisely because they fight the battles that we cannot, and because they do it proudly and with their heads held high.

i just don't get the sense that evil was truly punished in TDK. batman is forced to take too many L's and joker doesn't even appear to be phased by his capture.

Breh, even in the animated series, he took L's or had pyrrhic victories. And in the comics, that's what happens too. Batman's roots are in noir and pulp comics and that's sort of the norm for those genres

 

[Kill Dat Noize]

Breh, even in the animated series, he took L's or had pyrrhic victories. And in the comics, that's what happens too. Batman's roots are in noir and pulp comics and that's sort of the norm for those genres

lemme ask you a question, in TDK are meant to question batman's methods? do you really believe that movie raises an interesting question about government surveillance?

 

[MartyMcFly]

lemme ask you a question, in TDK are meant to question batman's methods? do you really believe that movie raises an interesting question about government surveillance?

Yeah breh. I included it in my thesis for grad school and they were convinced so I'm going with yes

 

[KravenMorehead™]

Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles = Best

2nd is debatable b/n spider-man 2 (raimi), the avengers, & the dark knight... i'm open to suggestions

 

[obarth]

:grootcamby:

i am Groot...

Not much I can say to rebuttal that

 

[obarth]

Yeah breh. I included it in my thesis for grad school and they were convinced so I'm going with yes

 

[MartyMcFly]

Not much I can say to rebuttal that

When he's got a point, he's got a point

 

[MartyMcFly]

Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles = Best

2nd is debatable b/n spider-man 2 (raimi), the avengers, & the dark knight... i'm open to suggestions

turtles is always always always slept on but anytime someone mentions it and I sit back, I always feel like it's the right answer

 

[KravenMorehead™]

u got my quote confused with obarth breh

 

[MartyMcFly]

u got my quote confused with obarth breh

Something went silly on my Mac. I quoted you both but :whoknows:

 

[Kill Dat Noize]

Yeah breh. I included it in my thesis for grad school and they were convinced so I'm going with yes

okay so you believe we are meant to question his methods, which implies that batman is doing something that he is morally against... but does it anyway because he believes it's for a greater good.

i disagree that it's wrong, and i think lucius fox is an idiot for even suggesting that it might be wrong. he knows full well what batman's intentions are and knows that this is the quickest way to apprehend the joker. it's not like this guy is just some terrorist with a different world view, he is clearly and unequivocally evil and he needs to be stopped.

so although tries to open up the discussion, i fail to see where the controversy lies. the only other alternative was to let joker continue to reign down his chaos. seems like a no brainer to me.

and lastly i would like to think that the world's greatest detective could locate joker's whereabouts without having to resort to that kind of thing.

 

[MartyMcFly]

okay so you believe we are meant to question his methods, which implies that batman is doing something that he is morally against... but does it anyway because he believes it's for a greater good.

i disagree that it's wrong, and i think lucius fox is an idiot for even suggesting that it might be wrong. he knows full well what batman's intentions are and knows that this is the quickest way to apprehend the joker. it's not like this guy is just some terrorist with a different world view, he is clearly and unequivocally evil and he needs to be stopped.

so although tries to open up the discussion, i fail to see where the controversy lies. the only other alternative was to let joker continue to reign down his chaos. seems like a no brainer to me.

and lastly i would like to think that the world's greatest detective could locate joker's whereabouts without having to resort to that kind of thing.

Well if you disagree breh, that's part of the discussion. There are those that feel like something like spying on your citizens through illegal surveillance is wrong. It's the same discussion we've had in America for almost 15 years. There are those that feel, like Batman feels, that the ends justify the means and even if you have to violate a civil liberty or two, if it means catching the bad guy then it's well worth it. Lucius represents the opposing viewpoint; that the ends never justify the means, no matter how bad the guy is and when you allow yourself to continue to violate or push the boundaries of the law, then you're no worse than the criminals you're trying to catch. Gotham in the comics and in the movie, has inhabitants like Lucius and like Gordon, who are willing to aide and abet a vigilante because some stuff needs a guy like batman, who can work outside of the system and do things that a regular cop can't because he isn't sworn to upholding due process or to not violate a treaty against torture. A cop can't hold a guy upside down outside of a building to coerce information out of him while threatening to drop him because that cop would be arrested (should be anyway); Batman can. Lucius in that instance represents the guy who's saying "Okay, I was willing to go along with some stuff, but even I have my limits" Every character in that movie has a limit or a line they're not willing to cross, just like our country. And just like in our country, there's discussions about how far over that line should we be willing to go if it means saving the day. When Lucius called it unethical, he was right on the money (at least to me) but there are others who feel otherwise

 

[KravenMorehead™]

Watchmen and Man of Steel are the same kind of cbm to me. This gothic air about em (which they got from the dark knight imo) which gives them more praise than they rightfully deserve.

And what makes the watchmen flick great was lifted from the comics so i think most of the praise is underserved. Personally it was a drag cause snyder used atmospherics to shove down our throats a point which should have been left primarily to plot and dialogue—which is similar to hiphop's problem in the last 15 years...

Critics love speeches and pretentious atmosphere. It's like giving a student an "A+" on their term paper cause they had long paragraphs and used Times New Roman font. I guess to tell people what works of art are dope or suck for a living you'd have to have a pretty arrogant opinion of yourself 9 times outta 10, and movies like that speak to that narcisicm...