Controversy warning: Egypt was neither exclusive black, arab, or white

[Unemployed GM]

I don't listen to whites when it comes to Ancient Egypt.

Whites boiled up like lobster at the beach. Skin hanging off like dried glue.

So...how exactly were they chilling in a 110 degree desert back in Ancient times?

Word. If you hever been go to Egypt, you will realize very quickly that no white person could have survived there before the invention of sunscreen.

 

[Indiglow Meta (R$G)]

good thread.. nikkas concerned about race are corny af

Why are you concerned about nikkas concerns, mongrel?

 

[Sean312]

it is true that egypt had different dynasties, but the FIRST and ones that created the pyramids and mathematics and all of the cool stuff were black. the others didnt come until later. and why do whites always try to steal our culture? go make movies about the Caucus mountains yall was living in. I really think its something VERY important about egypt that black people need to know about that they are hiding.

 

[John Hull]

Dope thread... even if unintentionally

 

[Bawon Samedi]

@Thabo

Stop trolling and making crat up. Either post cite some sources that support your claims or bounce out of this thread.

I can tell that that you're trolling because funny enough you're trying to base people in this thread who have an interest for Ancient Egypt. You tell them to focus on West African history like you are the ambassador of what African-Americans can study. When members on this thread say they have an interest in Mali and Timbuktu you not only further base them for their interest and but try to claim Mali and Timbuktu was some black hating states that mostly enslaved black people. Also ignoring the fact that AA's have a good amount of Mandinka ancestry, the same Mandinkas who founded the Mali Empire.

But that's not the point. The point is your lying. Yes, Timbuktu was founded by Tuareg Berbers, by then it was just a small trading post in the desert. It was later conquered and mostly controlled by Mandinka people. The Timbuktu that we know today was created by Mandinka people. The rich libraries, universities and architecture.

But you trying to say that Timbuktu is not apart of "black Mali", but Azawad is even more idiotic and hilarious. What the hell is a "black Mali." How can anyone take you serious after that? Azawad was a SHORT-LIVED rebel state in Northern Mali by Tuaregs. Back then there was never an Azawad. During both Mali and Songhai Timbuktu was always controlled by "black Malis" lol, since they had a foot in the government, education, politics and trade. Tuaregs barely had any influence beyond nomadic traders and personal armies for the Western Sudanic kings. The people of Timbuktu was described mostly as BLACK by scholars and travelers like Ibn Battuta.

So what the hell are you getting at?

And the Mali Empire was not "Arab based." Are you silly? The only thing they adopted by Arabs were the religion and writing system. Popular to common belief, The Mali empire was majority indigenous beliefs if I remember correctly. It was mainly the elites who were Muslim, even still Islamic beliefs in Mali were mixed with traditional African beliefs and the King did not force people to convert to Islam.

The religion of Islam was an important part of the Mali Empire. However, even though the kings, or Mansas, had converted to Islam, they did not force their subjects to convert. Many people practiced a version of Islam that combined Islamic beliefs with the local traditions.

Read more at: Ancient Africa for Kids: Empire of Ancient Mali


Hell heres Ibn Battuta explaining how liberal Mali's Islam was compared to Islam of Arabs and other Muslims. For example women did NOT have to wear veils and had a lot of say.

The Massufa were devout Muslims who said their prayers, learned the law, and memorized the Qu'ran. But their women were "not modest in the presence of men" and did not wear a veil. Although people married, "but the women do not travel with the husband, and if one of them wanted to do that, she would be prevented by her family." Each was free to take other sexual partners from outside the "prohibited degrees of marriage" [father, brother, son, etc.]. "One of them would enter his house to find his wife with her companion and would not disapprove of that conduct."

Ibn Battuta in West Africa

But it gets worse with you... You're claim that Mansa Musa was an Arabized black man who enslaved his people is your biggest lie yet. Yes, Mansa Musa was a devout Muslim, but he cared for his people and invested A LOT into his empire, but I'll get to that later.

First off, most of the slaves in the Mali Empire and in Timbuktu were prisoners of war or slaves that were imported like some Turkish slaves.

"Ibn Bhutta, who lived in West Africa for some years during the Mid-14th century, reported that the Mansa of Mali had an elite bodyguard of 300 slave recruited soldiers. These Mamluks are believed to have included Turks and other Northerners, perhaps even some Europeans"....
From Historical Atlas of the Islamic World, by David Nicolle

"It is interesting to note the great demand of the Mali people for Turkish, Ethiopian, and other slave-girls, and also for eunuchs and Turkish boys. The slave trade thus went in both directions."
- The Cambridge history of Africa: From c. 1600 to c. 1790, pp 90

In the 1300's al~Umari wrote that behind the mansa of Mali's throne "stand some thirty Turkish [Mamluk] or other mercenaries, purchased for him in Cairo. One of them holds a silk parasol in his hand, surmounted by a cupola and a gold bird representing a sparrow hawk." Translation by D.T. Niane.

Yeah these people all the way from Cairo, Europe, Ethiopia and Turkey are SOOOOOOO Mansa Musa's people.

Lets not even get into the fact that Mali's economy wasn't even based on slavery like say Kanem, but gold and salt, since around that time Mali controlled 2/3 of the worlds gold supply. But getting to more important facts. During Mansa Musa's dsays no black slaves were even linked to the Trans Sahara Slave trade.

"Except for the Zandj (black slaves) from lower Iraq, no large body of blacks historically linked to the trans-Saharan slave trade existed anywhere in the Arab world ... The high costs of slaves, because of the risks inherent in the desert crossing, which would have not permitted such a massive exodus ... In this connection, it is significant that in the Arabic iconography of the period, the slave merchant was often depicted as a man with a hole in his purse. Until the Crusades the Muslim world drew its slaves from two main sources: Eastern and Central Europe (Slavs) and Turkestan. The Sudan only came third. " - Africa from the Seventh to Eleventh Century, UNESCO, 1988

So lose us with the lying BS. Mansa Musa was a king that was noted for caring for his people and kingdom. And the people actually saw themselves as superior to non-Sudanese(black people), but thats not an important part. The important thing was that Mansa Musa not only cared for his people, but invested in his people and his kingdom.

It was in religion and culture, however, that Mūsā may have had his greatest impact. He actively encouraged the spread of Islam and the development of Islamic institutions. His efforts included a campaign for the construction of mosques throughout his domain. Among the intellectuals who accompanied Mūsā back to Mali after his pilgrimage was Abū Ishāq al-Sahili, possibly the most outstanding architect of medieval Islam. His varied talents included not only architecture and city planning but also poetry and music, and they indicate the richness of Islamic culture with which Mūsā seeded his kingdom. Abū Ishāq perfected techniques of mosque construction using West African materials, including the difficult task of building minarets out of mud brick. Some of his mosques still stand in the cities of modern Mali.

Mūsā also encouraged the development of systematic study and education. At the Sankore mosque in the fabled city of Timbuktu, near the northernmost part of the Niger's course, theologians, geographers, mathematicians, historians, and scientists gathered into a community that continued to publish until well into the eighteenth century. Just as Christian thinkers collected around cathedrals and thus began the European university tradition, Muslim intellectuals congregated around mosques, and Sankore was one of the best. Its fame spread as far as Egypt and Morocco.Professors summoned to teach in Timbuktu from some of the intellectual hotbeds of Islam often became the students of the Timbuktu scholars rather than their instructors.

Website Disabled

When Mansa ("king of kings") Musa came to power (1312 AD), Mali already had firm control of the trade routes to the southern lands of gold and the northern lands of salt. Now Musa brought the lands of the Middle Niger under Mali's rule. He enclosed the cities of Timbuktu and Gao within his empire. He imposed his rule on trans-desert trading towns such as Walata. He pushed his armies northward as far as the important salt-producing place called Taghaza, on the northern side of the great desert. He sent them eastward beyond Gao to the borders of Hausaland. He sent them westward into Takrur.
So it came about that Musa enclosed a large part of the Western Sudan within a single system of law and order. He did this so successfully that the Moroccan writer Ibn Batuta, travelling through Mali about twelve years after Musa's death, found 'complete and general safety in the land'. This was a big political success, and made Mansa Musa one of the greatest statesmen in the history of Africa.

Like the Mali kings before him, Musa was a Muslim. But most of his people were not Muslims, so he supported the religion of the Mandinka people as well as Islam. Different religious customs and ceremonies were allowed at his court.

West Africa Before the Colonial Era: A History to 1850

WOW...What a self-hating Arabized c00n allowing indigenous black religions in his court.

But its cute how Islamic African kingdoms/states automatically get assumed with enslaving their own people and being solely based on slavery, yet coastal non-Islamic West African states who's economies were solely based on slavery never does.

From the 1640s, four inland states near the Gulf of Guinea were growing in wealth and power from the slave trade. The kingdom of Oyo, around 300 kilometers (190 miles) inland, was the most successful of these kingdoms. It benefited from terrain sufficiently unforested and free of the tsetse fly and other disease carrying insects to allow for the breeding of horses. The Oyo kingdom used cavalry effectively in expanding southward where savanna split coastal forest. Oyo forced the coastal kingdom of Allada to pay it tribute, and it gained direct access to trade with Europeans. Oyo was a slave state, and its king used slave labor on his vast farmlands. In wars, Oyo took more slaves than it needed for the royal farms, and it traded them to the Europeans for guns, cloth, metal goods and cowry shells. It traded also with Africans to its north for horses and for more captives for the slave trade. And the kingdom acquired wealth by taxing trade that crossed its territory to and from Hausaland.

Another power in the region was the kingdom of Abomey, which was founded in the early 1600s by the brother of the king of Allada, a coastal kingdom that had grown wealthy from the slave trade. The brother, Do-Aklin, cut off village chiefs from having any say in selecting his successor. Rule in Abomey passed to his grandson, Wegbaja, who consolidated his power – while both Allada and Abomey were paying tribute to the more powerful kingdom of Oyo. In Abomey human sacrifices were used to honor the king's ancestors – the sacrifices usually captives from warfare.

West of Abomey were the Ashanti (Asanti), who were dominated by the Denkera to their southwest, to whom the Ashanti paid tribute. The primary political unit among the Ashanti had been the village, governed by clan elders. In the 1660s, an Ashanti warrior named Osei Tutu grouped clan chiefs around him and formed an alliance with the leading Ashanti religious figure, Anokye. They created a golden stool, representing power and spiritual unity, on which the ruler of the Ashanti was to sit, and they sanctified the golden stool with sacrifices.

Osei Tutu and Anokye extended their power across Ashanti chiefdoms, unifying the Ashanti. And with the power that accrued from this unity, the Ashanti defeated the Denkera and absorbed some of their subject states. These victories gave the Ashanti contact with the Europeans, to whom they sold slaves. And the Ashanti began an expansion inland for more slaves and for gold.

Meanwhile, Oyo cavalry invaded the Abomey four times, but Abomey retained enough power to expand against Allada on the coast. The king of Abomey, Agaja, was interested in buying arms from the Europeans. Conquering Allada in the 1720s gave him access to European trading. The enlarged rule of Agaja became known as Dahomey, and it began to prosper from the sale of slaves to the Europeans.

Slavery and the Kingdoms of Oyo, Dahomey and Asante

Should AAs too ignore these West African states? Funny you didn't mention them on your little troll jihad on Islamic West African states.

Why the heck should AAs or ANYONE for that matter listen to you on African history when you yourself don't have a clue on African history...

 

[Bawon Samedi]

Also @Sonni if you want to get at whats left the the carcass then your more than welcomed.

 

[Bawon Samedi]

This is rhetorical bytching at its finest.

They talk about those because those have the most broad appeal and knowledge. You know how deep most people need to research to know anything about ancient Ghana?

its like complaining to a white person for not talking about ancient hungary. Who gives a shyt if they don't talk about it. If they aren't actively denying it then its a moot point.

You don't have to get deep into it. The character knows exactly what he's doing. When people mention that they have an interest in West African states like Mali/Timbuktu, suddently those states are not only no longer West African but also no longer black or Arabized black.

He claims AAs have an obsession with Egypt yet ignores Cheikh Anta Diop a well known AFRICAN historian and anthropologist who can be argued breaking down the doors for arguments for a black Egypt.

 

[Samori Toure]

Timbuktu is not part of black Mali. Ever heard of Azawad and their slavery of blacks from the South. Step your knowledge game up.

I didn't even read all of the dumb shyt that you wrote in this thread, but this is the dumbest shyt of all. First of all the Kingdom of Mali arose out of the Kingdom of Ghana. Ghana was founded by the Soninke people, who are Mande ethnic group.

Mali arose after Ghana. Mali was founded by the Bambaran and Mandinka people; both of whom are also Mande ethnic group.

After Mali fell; Songhay arose. The Songhay kingdom was founded by the elite ruling class of the Bambaran and Mandinka people.

Those Kingdoms arose due to the fact that they dominated the gold trade and the fact that they controlled the trade routes between the Forest Belt people (ex. Akan people and Yoruba people) and the Berber people in modern Morocco. Those Kingdoms were always Mande, which means that they were always Black. Their wealth is what later brought the Arabs to the Mande Kingdoms. The Taureg people just like the Hausa people traversed the desert to go to the Mande Kingdoms for trade.

At the fall of the Songhay many Mande people fled into neighboring lands, which are the modern day countries of Sierra Leone, Liberia, Mali, Northern Ghana, Northern Ivory Coast, Guinea, Guinea-Bissau, Burkina Faso and Senegal. Upon being captured into slavery; many Mande people were taken directly into the United States. A large number of African Americans are directly descended from the Mande people; which is one of the reasons that freed slaves groups in the United States and England sat aside lands in Liberia and Sierra Leone; which is the general area in which most of the Mande people were from.

Why don't you try reading about the Mossi Kingdom. That is another very large well organized centralized Kingdom in West Africa. The Mossi Kingdom covered the area of Northern Ghana and Southern Burkina Faso. That is kingdom is also part Mande. Mind you now we haven't even addressed the Akan Kingdoms. That would be the Bonoman Kingdom that arose in Central Ghana and the Ivory Coast. The Akan people include the Brong, Baoule, Ashanti and Fante people. At some other point when you get a clue we will discuss the incredible societies that existed in modern day Nigeria; like Benin, Oyo, Ife-Ife, etc.; and the Bantu Kingdoms of Kongo, Bugunda, Wanga, Zimbabwe, etc.

 

[Bawon Samedi]

I didn't even read all of the dumb shyt that you wrote in this thread, but this is the dumbest shyt of all. First of all the Kingdom of Mali arose out of the Kingdom of Ghana. Ghana was founded by the Soninke people, who are Mande ethnic group.

Mali arose after Ghana. Mali was founded by the Bambaran and Mandinka people; both of whom are also Mande ethnic group.

After Mali fell; Songhay arose. The Songhay kingdom was founded by the elite ruling class of the Bambaran and Mandinka people.

Those Kingdoms arose due to the fact that they dominated the gold trade and the fact that they controlled the trade routes between the Forest Belt people (ex. Akan people and Yoruba people) and the Berber people in modern Morocco. Those Kingdoms were always Mande, which means that they were always Black. Their wealth is what later brought the Arabs to the Mande Kingdoms. The Taureg people just like the Hausa people traversed the desert to go to the Mande Kingdoms for trade.

At the fall of the Songhay many Mande people fled into neighboring lands, which are the modern day countries of Sierra Leone, Liberia, Mali, Northern Ghana, Northern Ivory Coast, Guinea, Guinea-Bissau, Burkina Faso and Senegal. Upon being captured into slavery; many Mande people were taken directly into the United States. A large number of African Americans are directly descended from the Mande people; which is one of the reasons that freed slaves groups in the United States and England sat aside lands in Liberia and Sierra Leone; which is the general area in which most of the Mande people were from.

Why don't you try reading about the Mossi Kingdom. That is another very large well organized centralized Kingdom in West Africa. The Mossi Kingdom covered the area of Northern Ghana and Southern Burkina Faso. That is kingdom is also part Mande. Mind you now we haven't even addressed the Akan Kingdoms. That would be the Bonoman Kingdom that arose in Central Ghana and the Ivory Coast. The Akan people include the Brong, Baoule, Ashanti and Fante people. At some other point when you get a clue we will discuss the incredible societies that existed in modern day Nigeria; like Benin, Oyo, Ife-Ife, etc.; and the Bantu Kingdoms of Kongo, Bugunda, Wanga, Zimbabwe, etc.

I see that you're picking at the corpse.

 

[The Odum of Ala Igbo]

One doesn't have to look like a West African (Michael Jordan, Kwame Nkrumah, Usain Bolt etc.) in order to look Black (Anwar Sadat, Meles Zenawi, Omar al-Bashir etc.)

 

[Thabo]

The Arabs are from Arabia, not Europe. They and the Asians have nothing to do with Europe.

The Arabs invaded Europe with North African Berber tribes (the Moors) and brought Europe most of their current knowledge and skills (colleges and universities; banking; medicine; architecture; trade, and knowledge of navigation etc.)

Good try though Cac. Stealing other people accomplishments is something that Northern Europeans have done for a long time.

Middle East is not just arabs which clearly shows your lack of knowledge on the subject matter. Egypt was apart of Middle Eastern civilization which included Persians and Phoenicians as well who are not Arabs. Why do you need to lie? Universities were a European creation, the oldest university is in Bologna Italy not in Arab territories. Arab and European architecture have nothing in common. Rome brought all those things to Europe that is why they are latin names.
What is this Cac bullshyt? I knew it would come to this, you can't debate so you resort to name calling and slander. What accomplishments were stolen?

 

[Thabo]

This is rhetorical bytching at its finest.

They talk about those because those have the most broad appeal and knowledge. You know how deep most people need to research to know anything about ancient Ghana?

its like complaining to a white person for not talking about ancient hungary. Who gives a shyt if they don't talk about it. If they aren't actively denying it then its a moot point.

Because we barely know anything about ancient Ghana. People talk about ancient Hungary, they were magyars who migrated from the steppe and converted to christianity. You are clearly out of your depth here. First of all white people are not a monolith, hungarians talk about hungary and magyars, english about angles, saxons and jutes and french about the franks who were roman foederati. They claim their heritage and don't try to establish a desperate link to Egypt.

 

[Samori Toure]

Middle East is not just arabs which clearly shows your lack of knowledge on the subject matter. Egypt was apart of Middle Eastern civilization which included Persians and Phoenicians as well who are not Arabs. Why do you need to lie? Universities were a European creation, the oldest university is in Bologna Italy not in Arab territories. Arab and European architecture have nothing in common. Rome brought all those things to Europe that is why they are latin names.
What is this Cac bullshyt? I knew it would come to this, you can't debate so you resort to name calling and slander. What accomplishments were stolen?

You lack knowledge you moron. Rome brought nothing to Europe. Greece brought things to Europe; Rome was just a continuation of Greece. The Greeks studied in Egypt. Universities are not a European creation. You are so fukking stupid. The Greeks studied in Egypt you fukking moron. Look it up. Plato studied in Egypt for 13 years. Aristotle studied in Egypt for 11 years.

Ethics Forum: Plato's Debt to Ancient Egypt
Plato

Why do you think that the Greeks and the Romans later invaded Egypt and sat up those bootleg dynasties? They were trying to claim legitimacy from the Egyptians. Be that as it may; Northern Europeans are not descended from the Greeks and Romans. The Romans called the Germanic people "savages and barbarians." The Romans were right. The Romans just called the English people "slaves" and that was good enough.

Btw, what kind of dope must you be on not to know that the Europeans were in the dark ages at the time of the Moorish invasion. The Europeans themselves even acknowledge that. They were living in caves and they didn't even fukking bath. Your filthy pig queens kept dogs on their laps so that the dog would attract fleas away the nasty bytch queens. They knew nothing about architecture and except for some nobility; they were not literate.

The Moors are the people that developed Europe. The Moors were not European. They were from North Africa. The Arabs are from Arabia. The Persians are from modern day Iran. None of those places are anywhere near fukking Europe. It is not even close to Europe. Get a fukking map. None of those people were White. Stop trying to claim their shyt.

 

[MegaManX]

Because we barely know anything about ancient Ghana. People talk about ancient Hungary, they were magyars who migrated from the steppe and converted to christianity. You are clearly out of your depth here. First of all white people are not a monolith, hungarians talk about hungary and magyars, english about angles, saxons and jutes and french about the franks who were roman foederati. They claim their heritage and don't try to establish a desperate link to Egypt.

They "talk" about it. They do not make it a distinguishable part of their life.

You want evidence. Link me 5 movies about anything not related to vikings, romans, or greeks.

"and don't try to establish a desperate link to Egypt."

Sure don't.

 

[MegaManX]

Egypt was apart of Middle Eastern civilization which included Persians and Phoenicians

This guy is out of control. Not once, in the first 2000 years of existance, has any custom from Canaan been put in a positive light on Kemetic Walls, scrolls, artifacts, and temples.

In fact, almost all images of them look like this

Look at those arabs in their walled cities trembling at the dark Kemetic gods!

Sit your cac washing ass down