City of Portland set to re-fund the police

[CrimsonTider]

Nothing about the American criminal justice system is practical.

When you’re in local goal, your primary charge is to keep citizens safe

what’s in your control is the city budget. The idea that that I can reduce that money to pay for therapy and think that’s going to help with crime is not practical

 

[CrimsonTider]

Breh, it's not hard to measure how long someone spends responding to, dealing with, and investing violent crime.





The article deals with how much time officers spend in the community on "police presence" too. It's on the order of 10% but differs a lot depending on department. At this point you might as well read it.





Low pay is not the reason there aren't enough officers.

There’s also 18,000 different police departments in this country

every community has a different relationship with their police department

what’s the reason?

and I pose the question to you. What do you do about crime?

 

[mastermind]

When you’re in local goal, your primary charge is to keep citizens safe

what’s in your control is the city budget. The idea that that I can reduce that money to pay for therapy and think that’s going to help with crime is not practical

You should read the article. I sent you the link.

 

[Professor Emeritus]

There’s also 18,000 different police departments in this country

every community has a different relationship with their police department

what’s the reason?

and I pose the question to you. What do you do about crime?

Every community's relationship with their police department is primarily the result of that police department's action. The vast majority of people are not criminals and want their community to be safe, and that is what the police are there to do, so if a community does not get along with their police department it is always the fault of the police. Just like no community would ever bytch about a good hospital or a good school, no one is going to bytch about a good police department if the police department is really doing their job.


The police have two main roles when it comes to reducing crime:

#1. Do their jobs effectively enough that the average citizen believes he'll likely get caught and get punished if he becomes a regular criminal. You don't have to lock folk up for 30 years, you don't have to beat the fukk out of people, you don't have to have an officer on every block, but if you successfully solve crimes regularly enough that folk think they'll be caught and if they know the punishment is something they don't want to face, that's enough.

#2. Maintain a solid enough relationship with the community that the community trusts them and actively assists them in solving crimes. If you're harassing community members, using unnecessary force, shooting folk, locking people up that don't deserve it or for far longer than they deserve, or generally being outsiders who project as hostile to the community, then you've already fukked up and made things worse.



Everything else necessary to stop crime is outside of the hands of police. Poor education, poor job prospects, racial and economic segregation, lack of political concern with the community, dissolution of family and social structures, poor emotional and mental health including drug addiction, and a culture of violence in America, they all contribute to higher crime. Most of that shyt can't be solved by officers, but the police can certainly make things worse. If you're only concerned about funding police then you're likely to neglect the shyt that actually results in long-term change.

 

[EndDomination]

yea it’s stupid

and what are you going to do about crime

Greater funding for social services and housing, which has been shown across every single major study to improve the quality of life, crime rate, and health of the populace is "stupid?" Sounds like you needed greater funding in your childhood schools if these are the thoughts you're expressing as an adult.

 

[get these nets]

did that in SF - Chesa Boudin - and citizens have rapidly turned on his "restitution justice" approach...

The truth about Chesa Boudin and San Francisco crime
San Francisco’s Top Prosecutor Will Face a Recall Election

They turned the heat on him after the robbery sprees the past few days. He was just on Cuomo copping pleas and sweating like Michael Irvin

 

[mastermind]

They turned the heat on him after the robbery sprees the past few days. He was just on Cuomo copping pleas and sweating like Michael Irvin

This is why it’s easy to play up crime stories. Walgreens planned to close these stores years ago but propped up the organized shoplifter angle to scare people into more police militarization and the furthering of draconian policing. Walgreens is against bail reform.

Retail theft was actually down
The Dishonest Blame Game of Retail Store Closures and Crime - The Appeal

The San Francisco Chronicle paints a dire picture. One alarmist headline reads “Organized crime drives S.F. shoplifting, closing 17 Walgreens in five years” and describes seniors losing access to prescription drugs and other vital services after their neighborhood pharmacy is forced to shutter. The paper doubled-down on this narrative last week based on video of a single shoplifting incident, in which a man shoves items into a garbage bag and then flees on a bicycle. Similarly, the New York Times reported that “the mundane crime of shoplifting has spun out of control in San Francisco,” with stores closing “largely because the scale of thefts had made business untenable.”

The source for this information? The retailers themselves, backed by anecdotal reports from law enforcement.

The stories draw from a San Francisco Board of Supervisors hearing that Supervisor Ahsha Safai convened last month. There, reports the Chronicle, “retailers attributed a majority of losses to professional thieves instead of opportunistic shoplifters who may be driven by poverty, with one CVS leader calling San Francisco a hub of organized retail crime.” That “leader” is Brendan Dugan, CVS Health’s “director of organized retail crime and corporate investigations,” who said “professional crime accounts for 85% of the company’s dollar losses” in San Francisco.

The Chronicle and the Times also reported retailer claims that criminal justice reform is to blame, particularly Proposition 47, which California voters passed in 2014 to reduce penalties for thefts worth less than $950. According to supermarket chain Safeway, the new law, which has been a critical tool in fighting mass incarceration, led to “dramatic increases” in shoplifting losses.

For his part, Safai wrote on Twitter that “the numbers speak for themselves,” and posted a Walgreens-produced graphic that uses four cartoon robbers to indicate the prevalence of “professional theft” in San Francisco. (By comparison, New York City only has 1.5 cartoon robbers.)

In none of this reporting did anyone apparently ask for actual data, or the methodology used to obtain it, or, say, the definition of “organized retail crime” and how retailers could possibly know exactly how much theft it’s responsible for. And when commentators like Adam Johnson, co-host of the podcast “Citations Needed” and a former staff writer at The Appeal, and law professor John Pfaff pointed this out, they confronted disbelief: “Are you accusing Walgreens of falsifying that data?” tweeted Michelle Tandler, a self-described “Moderate Dem” and founder of a life skills company. Michael Shellenberger, a writer and commentator on environmentalism, asked, “Why would Safeway lie?”

More thorough reporting would have provided reasons for skepticism. It could have mentioned that Walgreens announced in 2019 that it was closing hundreds of stores nationwide as a cost-saving measure, and that, as Johnson noted, Walgreens has closed stores in New York City at a higher rate without allegations of rampant organized crime.

Beyond that, the stories could have explained how the actual data shows that crime in San Francisco, including property crime, has dropped to record lows. Thefts overall are down compared to the five-year average from 2015 to 2019, and, according to police data, larceny (which includes shoplifting) is down 14 percent from this same point last year (or, to compare to a non-pandemic year, down 33 percent from the first five months of 2019). The Chronicle dismissed the relevance of this based on a police explanation, writing that police said “incidents are often underreported and have become more violent and brazen.”

And Safeway’s assertion that criminal justice reform is causing more crime could have been rebutted with the 2018 University of California, Irvine study, which concluded that while larceny “increased moderately,” overall, “we find very little evidence to suggest that Proposition 47 caused crime to increase in California.”

Even more glaring is the failure to note or investigate retailers’ long history of pushing for draconian shoplifting penalties based on dubious claims of significant crime waves.

An October 2020 report by the consumer-interest group Public Citizen explained how, “in recent years, the retail industry has advocated against criminal justice reforms that reduce shoplifting sentences and/or supported harsher anti-shoplifting laws in 18 states,” with retailers winning in 11 of those states. In California, major grocers including Safeway collectively spent hundreds of thousands of dollars supporting an unsuccessful 2020 ballot measure to roll back Proposition 47 and create longer prison sentences for shoplifting, among other harsh criminal penalties.

 

[storyteller]

This is why it’s easy to play up crime stories. Walgreens planned to close these stores years ago but propped up the organized shoplifter angle to scare people into more police militarization and the furthering of draconian policing. Walgreens is against bail reform.

Retail theft was actually down
The Dishonest Blame Game of Retail Store Closures and Crime - The Appeal

This is a good podcast that dives into some of the copaganda people are barraged with.

 

[shonuff]

If I can interject


The problem with policing is ....people

And people wanna have it both ways

And by both ways I mean people want the rules enforced - But people don't want to realistically deal with people Someone said here that you don't have to beat the fukk out of people but the reality is you DO have to beat the fukk out of some people

There's plenty of DOS this out here do and dirt in the street and the only thing they respect is the fact that if they do dirt to the wrong person they know they're gonna get the ass kicked which is why they attack people that can attack them back


The police is our way of systemically punching dudes in the face that think that they can go around just punching regular people in the face with no repercussions

All the stuff about how the cops have military weapons and they need to be more understanding and they are an existentialist arm.of white supremacy....is all a distraction -


Americans are only partially delusional about policing - and black people especially so -why? goto an all black country or latino country and try to do the shyt you do here with American police - you instantly know you know better or you learn to be better ...and let's keep it 100 - the cops in India Japan or Ireland or iceland will fukk up folk who.look just like them but for some reason we want to.pretemd like that dynamic doesn't apply here in the US and everything gets processed thru the matrix of this country's fukked up racist history a.d.its often to the detrimemt.of Black people

But ack.folk.want to again have shyt both ways - we can't culturally and socially coddle excuse ignore and celebrate fukked up shyt and then complain about fukked up shyt happening to us

The additional problem with policing is that like any city or government service - cheap equals good- AND

Civil service means you get a person who.will try to do as little as possible to just be doing enough - so that means you're gonna get a lot of shytty people to be police if you really don't want to pay ...shyt is mercenary 101

Until people stop pretending like some.of the silly shyt they've said in the last few years about crime and what makes crime is actually true ...then you might be able to address really reforming police

But somehow the society is all about talk and no REAL consequences when dudes do shytbut then wanna laugh and joke and be entertained when someone does criminal shyt

We have an entire entertainment industry the promotes women basically being a whore - and dudes being selfish childish a$$holes and acting a thug and dressing up and behaving like you about that street life

and then folk wanna cry when they get presumed to be exactly what they are acting and looking like ...

The problems.above have to be addressed on a systemic level and until that happens police will.be a problem bank loans college and buying fukking groceries will be a fukking problem

 

[Jalether]

The same police that literally watch and even assist domestic terrorists, proud boys, as they violently attack protesters in portland

They will use that money to hire or rehire more proud boys and oathkeepers affiliated meathead cops and "peace shall be restored"

Now they could surprise us and hire competent cops and invest in better training but I seriously doubt that's what will happen. A well funded fascist organisation/fractanity

 

[get these nets]

SF District Attorney announces arrests and charges for burglaries that occured over the weekend.

 

[CrimsonTider]

Every community's relationship with their police department is primarily the result of that police department's action. The vast majority of people are not criminals and want their community to be safe, and that is what the police are there to do, so if a community does not get along with their police department it is always the fault of the police. Just like no community would ever bytch about a good hospital or a good school, no one is going to bytch about a good police department if the police department is really doing their job.


The police have two main roles when it comes to reducing crime:

#1. Do their jobs effectively enough that the average citizen believes he'll likely get caught and get punished if he becomes a regular criminal. You don't have to lock folk up for 30 years, you don't have to beat the fukk out of people, you don't have to have an officer on every block, but if you successfully solve crimes regularly enough that folk think they'll be caught and if they know the punishment is something they don't want to face, that's enough.

#2. Maintain a solid enough relationship with the community that the community trusts them and actively assists them in solving crimes. If you're harassing community members, using unnecessary force, shooting folk, locking people up that don't deserve it or for far longer than they deserve, or generally being outsiders who project as hostile to the community, then you've already fukked up and made things worse.



Everything else necessary to stop crime is outside of the hands of police. Poor education, poor job prospects, racial and economic segregation, lack of political concern with the community, dissolution of family and social structures, poor emotional and mental health including drug addiction, and a culture of violence in America, they all contribute to higher crime. Most of that shyt can't be solved by officers, but the police can certainly make things worse. If you're only concerned about funding police then you're likely to neglect the shyt that actually results in long-term change.

Discussing crime like a textbook is futile

Everyone understands the effects of poverty

what were talking about here are local governments and keeping people that live in the vicinity of high crime safe

a local government doesn’t have the tools to combat systemic racism

y’all ain’t never been around the streets and it shows. There’s too many illegal guns and theres too many repeat offenders being let out of city jail

that’s why crime is up everywhere

jails are letting people out who have otherwise been locked up until they got sent to prison because they don’t want to treat inmates for Covid

 

[Professor Emeritus]

Discussing crime like a textbook is futile

Everyone understands the effects of poverty

what were talking about here are local governments and keeping people that live in the vicinity of high crime safe

a local government doesn’t have the tools to combat systemic racism

You're talking like you didn't read what I said at all. Difficult to have a discussion with someone who doesn't even read the points I already discussed. Once you pass a certain threshold, incarcerating more men from a community makes the crime rate go UP, not down. You're talking about bullshyt short-term fixes that are just gonna make everything worse.

The USA incarceration rate of Black men is something like 5x higher than the total incarceration rate of any other country. And you think the solution is....even more incarceration?

y’all ain’t never been around the streets and it shows.

Stop talking internet tough, I've lived in plenty hoods you'd be approaching all meekly and asking for permission first.

There’s too many illegal guns

Very little local governments can do about that. Don't you claim blood? Tell the bangers who pretend to be your friend online to stop bringing that shyt onto the streets.

and theres too many repeat offenders being let out of city jail

that’s why crime is up everywhere

jails are letting people out who have otherwise been locked up until they got sent to prison because they don’t want to treat inmates for Covid

You're literally spewing right-wing bullshyt narratives while claiming to be from the streets.

Actual data from jails shows your claim isn't remotely true:

Many large U.S. cities that kept people out of jail at the apex of the COVID-19 outbreak did so without seeing a spike in crime, according to a new study that looks at the relationship between crime and efforts to reduce jail populations during the pandemic.

The report, released Monday by the American Civil Liberties Union, examined data on jail population and crime in 29 of the largest cities in the United States. The study found that in all but one city – Denver, Colorado – crime rates fell even as fewer arrests were made and jail numbers were reduced.

“Over this time period, we found that the reduction in jail population was functionally unrelated to crime trends in the following months,” the report says. “In fact, in nearly every city explored, fewer crimes occurred between March and May in 2020 compared to the same time period in 2019, regardless of the magnitude of the difference in jail population."

How COVID-19 Jail Releases Are Impacting US Crime Rate



The increase in crime doesn't have any correlation with the areas that reduced prison population. It has a lot more to do with people dealing inappropriately with the pandemic stresses combined with growing lack of respect for law enforcement that makes folk more willing to act out. School violence and suspensions have gone up even worse than crime, are you gonna claim that's cause of all the convicts re-entering the school system?

 

[CrimsonTider]

You're talking like you didn't read what I said at all. Difficult to have a discussion with someone who doesn't even read the points I already discussed. Once you pass a certain threshold, incarcerating more men from a community makes the crime rate go UP, not down. You're talking about bullshyt short-term fixes that are just gonna make everything worse.

The USA incarceration rate of Black men is something like 5x higher than the total incarceration rate of any other country. And you think the solution is....even more incarceration?





Stop talking internet tough, I've lived in plenty hoods you'd be approaching all meekly and asking for permission first.




Very little local governments can do about that. Don't you claim blood? Tell the bangers who pretend to be your friend online to stop bringing that shyt onto the streets.




You're literally spewing right-wing bullshyt narratives while claiming to be from the streets.

Actual data from jails shows your claim isn't remotely true:

How COVID-19 Jail Releases Are Impacting US Crime Rate



The increase in crime doesn't have any correlation with the areas that reduced prison population. It has a lot more to do with people dealing inappropriately with the pandemic stresses combined with growing lack of respect for law enforcement that makes folk more willing to act out. School violence and suspensions have gone up even worse than crime, are you gonna claim that's cause of all the convicts re-entering the school system?

Not admitting many people to jail, is the same shyt it not putting people in city jail because of Covid treatment issues

you really think all this robbing and killing is due to pandemic stresses

So I ask for the 100th time. What do you do about the increase in murders and robberies?

 

[Professor Emeritus]

@CrimsonTider , go ahead and read those first two paragraphs again then actually respond to them, rather than ignoring them to pursue your agenda.

Not admitting many people to jail, is the same shyt it not putting people in city jail because of Covid treatment issues

That's the second time in a row you just proved you didn't read what I wrote. That's not what the link you quoted says at ALL. Reread that shyt and try again.

you really think all this robbing and killing is due to pandemic stresses

Not all, but it's the largest factor. Police refusing to do their jobs in order to "send a message" and drive up public sentiment is also a factor. People just plain not giving a shyt about authorities anymore after everything that happened last year is also a factor.

Jails only slowed admissions in some states, but crime is up everywhere. How do you explain that there was zero increase in crime (actually a reduction) during the first year of the pandemic when all those lower-admission programs were running? How do you explain the post I already gave you?

So I ask for the 100th time. What do you do about the increase in murders and robberies?

I already told you.