Black People And Capitalism DON'T Mix

[Poitier]

 

[CHL]

How have high tax rates been working out in France?

How did they work in 1950's America, during your supposed economic "golden age"? Before you say, "nah no one payed the 91% tax rate", the effective rate was still very high, especially compared to 2014 America.

Regardless, that was a pretty nice strawman. Are you really going to debate the merits of raising taxes, possibly one of the most obvious courses of action you could take in fighting enormous income inequality? Really?

 

[DEAD7]

In 2014, there are no examples of an entire country having these practices. Perhaps some communities and regions have elements, though. Marinaleda, Spain. Zapatistas in Mexico.

Whenever this has really been attempted, it has been undermined and attempted to be crushed from the outside. Did you know the Allied powers intervened in the Russian Civil War to prevent the Bolsheviks from winning? To, in the words of Winston Churchill, "strangle Bolshevism in its cradleboard." And the constant pressure capitalist powers placed on any country attempting to build an alternative economic model created distortions in those economies and societies -- having to put vast amounts into national defense instead of health care, infrastructure, development, etc. can wring any country dry and cause economic collapse. But none of this is considered in most people's "analysis."

So human nature has rejected it every time its been "really implemented".

 

[JahFocus CS]

So human nature has rejected it every time its been "really implemented".

No, the the powerful rejected that which threatened their material interests...

 

[DEAD7]

How did they work in 1950's America, during your supposed economic "golden age"? Before you say, "nah no one payed the 91% tax rate", the effective rate was still very high, especially compared to 2014 America.

Regardless, that was a pretty nice strawman. Are you really going to debate the merits of raising taxes, possibly the most obvious course of action you could take in fighting enormous income inequality? Really?

Easy, no one paid it I bet you think loop holes exist by accident? some one just over looks a detail huh? The higher the rates in this country the bigger the loop holes. Welcome to American politics.

 

[DEAD7]

No, the the powerful rejected that which threatened their material interests...

... and this will be a constant, making it incompatible.

Or to put it simpler, the reason it never worked in the past, is the same reason it wont work now. people are gonna people.

This idea that there is a better economic model that everyone knows about but has decided not to use is hilarious though.

 

[JahFocus CS]

... and this will be a constant, making it incompatible.

Or to put it simpler, the reason it never worked in the past, is the same reason it wont work now. people are gonna people.

This idea that there is a better economic model that everyone knows about but has decided not to use is hilarious though.

Class conflict is a constant and will always be there until a stateless, classless society is achieved, or until humanity drives itself to extinction.

So if slaveholders during chattel slavery in the U.S. crushed a slave revolt... the lesson you take from that is, slaves should never have revolted again, and slavery was just an immutable fact of life?

Slaveholders acted in their interests and crushed the revolt --> "People are gonna people" "Can't do anything about it"
It was difficult to get enslaved people together to plot and carry out a revolt. There were some people who snitched and sold out the revolts. --> "People are gonna people"

Capitalist society conditions people to believe that, one, classes don't exist and everyone is just atomized. Two, that they are powerless to effect substantive systemic change. Three -- particularly after 1991 -- that capitalism is the sole viable system and that "socialism/communism are pipe dreams/incompatible with human nature."

People often know about better alternatives, but the power of inertia prevents them from carrying out change. This is true on individual and group levels. Why do you think executives always talk about how difficult it is to bring about changes within their enterprises? Now take that and multiply it to the level of a country and world, with the existing system doing everything it can to crush alternatives.

 

[DEAD7]

Class conflict is a constant and will always be there until a stateless, classless society is achieved, or until humanity drives itself to extinction.

So if slaveholders during chattel slavery in the U.S. crushed a slave revolt... the lesson you take from that is, slaves should never have revolted again, and slavery was just an immutable fact of life?

Chattel slavery isn't a characteristic of humanity, greed, selfishness, and the lust for power are. If these things are incompatible with real socialism, than humanity isn't compatible with it.
This fundamental truth is why it isnt practiced anywhere in the world while capitalism is.
Capitalism with strong public safety nets is the best we can hope for, and even then the trade offs will be criticized.

 

[JahFocus CS]

Chattel slavery isn't a characteristic of humanity, greed, selfishness, and the lust for power are. If these things are incompatible with real socialism, than humanity isn't compatible with it.
This fundamental truth is why it isnt practiced anywhere in the world while capitalism is.
Capitalism with strong public safety nets is the best we can hope for, and even then the trade offs will be criticized.

Chattel slavery was an institution with all the hallmarks of greed, selfishness, and the lust for power. Slaveholders were certainly greedy, selfish, and lusted for power/were powerful. How does that not fit in with your narrative? You want to paint a picture of humanity as being all out for self. What better way to do that than to own people and make them do everything for you?

And there you go again making a claim about human nature. That's a scientific argument so you need to provide some scientific studies showing that greed/selfishness/lust for power are inherent within people and take precedence over other elements of human nature. If you can't do that to support your argument, then you're talking just to talk.

That is not the "fundamental truth" of why socialism isn't practiced anywhere. Where did the prospect of socialism arise where a capitalist power didn't crush or exert pressure against it? Capitalist powers went around the world forcibly breaking open markets and eradicating older economic orders. When the prospect of socialism arose, capitalist powers spent a lot of time and effort trying to snuff it out (this is true to this day).

People made the same arguments as you, for monarchy and aristocracy and against democracy. For many centuries and millennia, it looked like democratic institutions were a pipe dream and incompatible with human nature. Social progress always looks impossible when you're thoroughly socialized by the ideas of the system currently in place

 

[Spin]

Chattel slavery was an institution with all the hallmarks of greed, selfishness, and the lust for power. Slaveholders were certainly greedy, selfish, and lusted for power/were powerful. How does that not fit in with your narrative? You want to paint a picture of humanity as being all out for self. What better way to do that than to own people and make them do everything for you?

And there you go again making a claim about human nature. That's a scientific argument so you need to provide some scientific studies showing that greed/selfishness/lust for power are inherent within people and take precedence over other elements of human nature. If you can't do that to support your argument, then you're talking just to talk.

That is not the "fundamental truth" of why socialism isn't practiced anywhere. Where did the prospect of socialism arise where a capitalist power didn't crush or exert pressure against it? Capitalist powers went around the world forcibly breaking open markets and eradicating older economic orders. When the prospect of socialism arose, capitalist powers spent a lot of time and effort trying to snuff it out (this is true to this day).

People made the same arguments as you, for monarchy and aristocracy and against democracy. For many centuries and millennia, it looked like democratic institutions were a pipe dream and incompatible with human nature. Social progress always looks impossible when you're thoroughly socialized by the ideas of the system currently in place

So you just brought up a big example of greed/selfishness/lust, but then say we need to have scientific proof it exists? I don't claim nor do I care to be a scientist so that argument with me holds no weight. In my experience(which is what I base my movements on), people are greedy.

Tell me where your system even exists today? We would all love to live in Utopia, but it hasn't happened and I don't see it happening in my lifetime. Even if by some miracle it does, I'm playing the game how it's played now and will "adjust" if "heaven on earth" ever comes. For your classless society theory you also need proof that it works. There has been no scientific study that proves it can. From Ancient Egypt, Rome, Greece, Ottoman Empire, until now you can easily find greed and corruption. People are a mixture of good and evil and one without the other doesn't exist.

 

[NERO]

Intriguing discussion.

 

[JahFocus CS]

So you just brought up a big example of greed/selfishness/lust, but then say we need to have scientific proof it exists? I don't claim nor do I care to be a scientist so that argument with me holds no weight. In my experience(which is what I base my movements on), people are greedy.

Tell me where your system even exists today? We would all love to live in Utopia, but it hasn't happened and I don't see it happening in my lifetime. Even if by some miracle it does, I'm playing the game how it's played now and will "adjust" if "heaven on earth" ever comes. For your classless society theory you also need proof that it works. There has been no scientific study that proves it can. From Ancient Egypt, Rome, Greece, Ottoman Empire, until now you can easily find greed and corruption. People are a mixture of good and evil and one without the other doesn't exist.

I didn't say scientific proof was needed to demonstrate the existence of greed, selfishness, etc. But when you make a claim about human nature, you're making a scientific claim, and you need evidence to back that -- especially if you want to say that greed and selfishness override other aspects of human nature. I provided evidence earlier in the thread suggesting that cooperative instincts come first. Due to the incentives and stresses of capitalism, I would argue, greed and selfishness often override cooperation.

If you want to engage in a discussion about social issues and human nature, you're going to need to come to the table with more than anecdotes and vague allusions to your personal experiences.

Unfortunately it seems that you are incapable of distinguishing between scientific claims, theories, and social/economic systems.

My point is that it is in the material interests of working class people to work together and struggle for socialism. At the end of the day, this talk of values and whatnot is tangential to that main point. Capitalism doesn't work for the vast majority of humanity who live under insecurity, stress, and oppression. You can say that these people can simply try to become rich to change their condition, but the likelihood of that happening for the vast majority of these people is extremely slim due to systemic constraints. If you're not a member of the working class (if you don't sell your labor to survive), then your position makes sense. You'll follow your material interests to support the system, unless your values lead you to oppose it.

 

[Spin]

I didn't say scientific proof was needed to demonstrate the existence of greed, selfishness, etc. But when you make a claim about human nature, you're making a scientific claim, and you need evidence to back that -- especially if you want to say that greed and selfishness override other aspects of human nature. I provided evidence earlier in the thread suggesting that cooperative instincts come first. Due to the incentives and stresses of capitalism, I would argue, greed and selfishness often override cooperation.

If you want to engage in a discussion about social issues and human nature, you're going to need to come to the table with more than anecdotes and vague allusions to your personal experiences.

Unfortunately it seems that you are incapable of distinguishing between scientific claims, theories, and social/economic systems.

My point is that it is in the material interests of working class people to work together and struggle for socialism. At the end of the day, this talk of values and whatnot is tangential to that main point. Capitalism doesn't work for the vast majority of humanity who live under insecurity, stress, and oppression. You can say that these people can simply try to become rich to change their condition, but the likelihood of that happening for the vast majority of these people is extremely slim due to systemic constraints. If you're not a member of the working class (if you don't sell your labor to survive), then your position makes sense. You'll follow your material interests to support the system, unless your values lead you to oppose it.

Cooperative instincts don't prove anything about this society you speak of. I'm not getting into a battle about science because like I mentioned I'm no scientist nor do I care to be one. Hell even scientist are at the mercy of their employers so I take most "studies" with a grain of salt anyway.

We live in a material world and until that changes greed and lust will be here. You can take yourself out of the game by moving into some remote village or become a monk. Beyond that you will have to deal with the good and bad of the world. People have to take ownership of their lives. If this country isn't for them, well find another one. I know that might sound simple, but they will have to do it or stay in their situation. As a man of color I have yet to see anywhere outside of the USA that is better despite all the bs that goes on here. Like I mentioned before, in this country you have the benefit of having a CHOICE. That's more than what you can say about plenty of other countries.

 

[JahFocus CS]

Cooperative instincts don't prove anything about this society you speak of. I'm not getting into a battle about science because like I mentioned I'm no scientist nor do I care to be one. Hell even scientist are at the mercy of their employers so I take most "studies" with a grain of salt anyway.

Well, you can bow out of the discussion then

We live in a material world and until that changes greed and lust will be here. You can take yourself out of the game by moving into some remote village or become a monk. Beyond that you will have to deal with the good and bad of the world. People have to take ownership of their lives. If this country isn't for them, well find another one. I know that might sound simple, but they will have to do it or stay in their situation. As a man of color I have yet to see anywhere outside of the USA that is better despite all the bs that goes on here. Like I mentioned before, in this country you have the benefit of having a CHOICE. That's more than what you can say about plenty of other countries.

The world will always be material (basically by definition...). I don't doubt that greed and lust will be there - it is a matter of degree and whether or not it is a central component of, and encouraged by, the prevailing system/order. Escapism doesn't change much and that's not what I'm proposing. I agree, people have to take ownership of their lives. And they need to organize for their class interests to do so.

 

[Medicate]

So you just brought up a big example of greed/selfishness/lust, but then say we need to have scientific proof it exists? I don't claim nor do I care to be a scientist so that argument with me holds no weight. In my experience(which is what I base my movements on), people are greedy.

Tell me where your system even exists today? We would all love to live in Utopia, but it hasn't happened and I don't see it happening in my lifetime. Even if by some miracle it does, I'm playing the game how it's played now and will "adjust" if "heaven on earth" ever comes. For your classless society theory you also need proof that it works. There has been no scientific study that proves it can. From Ancient Egypt, Rome, Greece, Ottoman Empire, until now you can easily find greed and corruption. People are a mixture of good and evil and one without the other doesn't exist.

Nah....People are not a mix of good and evil naturally. People are naturally good hearted, until their mind is conditioned to recycle evil from before and if they are conditioned to be evil, then they can be conditioned to be good. Everyone seems to follow patterns in life. You seem to be saying that "God" created a people to set out to do this type of evil today we see. That's a whole other story, I won't get into...