Black People And Capitalism DON'T Mix

[JahFocus CS]

Lets not play fast and loose with the word "slave"

Cause we don't have slavery right now. Debt-slavery shouldn't even be a word because it makes actual slavery look less immoral and profound.

And interest in Islam DOES happen. They use loopholes to sell the asset back at a higher price to essentially make more of a profit on the loan. They have all sorts of ways around it.

The history of debt slavery goes back to at least ancient times. Chattel slavery (the sort that jumpstarted modern capitalism and was closely linked to it in the 1800s) was significantly different in its features from other forms of slavery around the world and in different time periods. There isn't just one type of slavery.

You're right, people in the Muslim world do find ways around the prohibition of riba. That shows that material realities trump ideas when push comes to shove, and ideas reflect or respond to some aspect of material reality. The Muslim bourgeoisie has gotten quite creative with their workarounds and the financial instruments they've created to lessen their cognitive dissonance

 

[☑︎#VoteDemocrat]

The history of debt slavery goes back to at least ancient times. Chattel slavery (the sort that jumpstarted modern capitalism and was closely linked to it in the 1800s) was significantly different in its features from other forms of slavery around the world and in different time periods. There isn't just one type of slavery.

You're right, people in the Muslim world do find ways around the prohibition of riba. That shows that material realities trump ideas when push comes to shove, and ideas reflect or respond to some aspect of material reality. The Muslim bourgeoisie has gotten quite creative with their workarounds and the financial instruments they've created to lessen their cognitive dissonance

yeah but what makes debt slavery different is that you could pay it off...

 

[notPsychosiz]

The history of debt slavery goes back to at least ancient times. Chattel slavery (the sort that jumpstarted modern capitalism and was closely linked to it in the 1800s) was significantly different in its features from other forms of slavery around the world and in different time periods. There isn't just one type of slavery.

You're right, people in the Muslim world do find ways around the prohibition of riba. That shows that material realities trump ideas when push comes to shove, and ideas reflect or respond to some aspect of material reality. The Muslim bourgeoisie has gotten quite creative with their workarounds and the financial instruments they've created to lessen their cognitive dissonance

True. Some of this is adaptation to the global climate.
Without a banking system of some regard the arabic world would be excluded from the modern world. I think there are at least a few countries that would not have a military except that the existance of a single country's military precludes that all other countries have one or face possible subordination should things fail diplomatically.

 

[DEAD7]

Capitalism creates wage slaves because people without capital are forced to sell their labor in order to survive.

As opposed to what? Every successful economy uses the "wage slave" mechanism... I'm not sure what you're suggesting. Abandoning paid work?

 

[DEAD7]

You all not thinking outside of the box. This summary is false breh. If you can't see it, then I'm not going to argue. You thinking to simplistic. There is not a game in this scenario. This system has left nikkas literally dead economically and socially.

You didnt really say anything disproving or debunking my "false summary". You just called it simplistic as if that means incorrect
Then you go on to say you are not going to argue and support your assertion...
Dismissing isnt the same as disproving my man.

 

[DEAD7]

Another thing is that people try to divorce capitalism from the state. The modern state is a capitalist institution in the first place. How would capitalism function without copyrights, trademarks, contract enforcement, etc.? Who would forcefully open up new markets, if not militaries?

I cant....

 

[Spin]

Capitalism isn't perfect, but it's the best system out of what is currently available. People are going to have to accept the fact that we're greedy and have our own interest in mind. With that said, a true system of Communism is a pipe dream. You will always have someone gaming the system to their benefit. Even in Cuba today the black Cubans suffer from inequality. You really want to work at a job put in more work than everyone else, but get the same pay?

In any system you will need labor to get things done. People criticize The Federal Reserve, but without a "funny money" system how do you think physical labor will get done? If there is no money to pay you to do something, they're going to start forcing you to. Who do you think they will come after first?

What capitalism does is offer you a choice. That choice is if you're going to learn the game and work it to your advantage or become consumed by it. That choice is often peoples downfall because many people generally will take the easiest route possible. How can you work at a desk job and get mad because you aren't a millionaire? What revenue are you bringing to the company? How many other people in the world can do the same thing as you?

People generally dislike salesmen, but guess what? You're always selling something. You're selling your time, services, selling yourself to win over a chick, etc. After working in sales, which I suggest everyone try at least one, you see how the game is played. The boss can hate Mr. Sleazeball, but Mr. Sleazeball brings the company X amount of dollars. Guess who is going to get that promotion?

There is also the power politics that exist in any system. Ever wonder why when a big manager or CEO leaves a company, he usually takes the same people with him? When you're climbing the ladder you have to become a shark. The most important thing for a CEO to have is a staff he/she trusts. A CEO will sometimes take a incompetent person over someone more qualified if they know that person won't screw them over. You wonder why your manager seems to be dumb as rocks? His boss finds him useful.

This fairy tail way of looking at the world has got to stop. People in power don't care if the majority of others stay in la la land because it means less competition for them.

 

[JahFocus CS]

As opposed to what? Every successful economy uses the "wage slave" mechanism... I'm not sure what you're suggesting. Abandoning paid work?

The means of production should be communally owned. People do not receive the full value of their labor under capitalism. Perhaps a system of labor credits could be used during a transitional stage.

I cant....

You can't make a legitimate argument against it? I know. Because it is true

Capitalism isn't perfect, but it's the best system out of what is currently available. People are going to have to accept the fact that we're greedy and have our own interest in mind. With that said, a true system of Communism is a pipe dream. You will always have someone gaming the system to their benefit. Even in Cuba today the black Cubans suffer from inequality. You really want to work at a job put in more work than everyone else, but get the same pay?

In any system you will need labor to get things done. People criticize The Federal Reserve, but without a "funny money" system how do you think physical labor will get done? If there is no money to pay you to do something, they're going to start forcing you to. Who do you think they will come after first?

What capitalism does is offer you a choice. That choice is if you're going to learn the game and work it to your advantage or become consumed by it. That choice is often peoples downfall because many people generally will take the easiest route possible. How can you work at a desk job and get mad because you aren't a millionaire? What revenue are you bringing to the company? How many other people in the world can do the same thing as you?

People generally dislike salesmen, but guess what? You're always selling something. You're selling your time, services, selling yourself to win over a chick, etc. After working in sales, which I suggest everyone try at least one, you see how the game is played. The boss can hate Mr. Sleazeball, but Mr. Sleazeball brings the company X amount of dollars. Guess who is going to get that promotion?

There is also the power politics that exist in any system. Ever wonder why when a big manager or CEO leaves a company, he usually takes the same people with him? When you're climbing the ladder you have to become a shark. The most important thing for a CEO to have is a staff he/she trusts. A CEO will sometimes take a incompetent person over someone more qualified if they know that person won't screw them over. You wonder why your manager seems to be dumb as rocks? His boss finds him useful.

This fairy tail way of looking at the world has got to stop. People in power don't care if the majority of others stay in la la land because it means less competition for them.

If you're going to posit that human nature is inherently greedy, you're going to need to provide some real evidence for that claim. That's essentially a scientific claim you're making, so you'll need some biological and psychological evidence here. I would say that capitalism conditions us to be greedy and think only of ourselves.

Many studies in recent years and decades suggest that our first instinct is to cooperate with others, not be greedy: http://www.scientificamerican.com/a...an-nature-and-discover-we-are-good-after-all/, http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v489/n7416/full/489374a.html, and http://proutglobe.org/2012/10/is-human-nature-competitive-or-cooperative/ as starting points for references and specific studies.

For one, Cuba isn't a communist country. Communism is a stateless, classless society. You can argue, however, that Cuba has some features of socialism. And I would definitely argue that Afro-Cubans are treated much better than people of African descent elsewhere in Latin America.

People often put in more work in their jobs and make the same as their co-workers under capitalism.

Yeah, you need labor under any system. But people seemed to have been fine laboring for the vast majority of human existence without the paper chase or the whip.

 

[CHL]

no system is perfect.

there is nothing inherently wrong with capitalism, just the greedy people that exploit it at the expense of others.

If we had a very, very well regulated, mixed market economy with a high progressive tax rate I wouldn't even have a problem with the 50% or so of capitalism, assuming all it's downsides had been eliminated or minimised and no one was in poverty any longer.

 

[Poitier]

If we had a very, very well regulated, mixed market economy with a high progressive tax rate I wouldn't even have a problem with the 50% or so of capitalism, assuming all it's downsides had been eliminated or minimised and no one was in poverty any longer.

Someone who gets it.

 

[DEAD7]

If we had a very, very well regulated, mixed market economy with a high progressive tax rate I wouldn't even have a problem with the 50% or so of capitalism, assuming all it's downsides had been eliminated or minimised and no one was in poverty any longer.

How have high tax rates been working out in France?

 

[JahFocus CS]

If we had a very, very well regulated, mixed market economy with a high progressive tax rate I wouldn't even have a problem with the 50% or so of capitalism, assuming all it's downsides had been eliminated or minimised and no one was in poverty any longer.

The systemic logic of capitalism isn't compatible with that though. A high tax rate isn't good for business (it can discourage business, too) and it would just be a matter of time before those policies were rolled back by the bourgeoisie.

Things like unemployment are built into capitalism. There needs to be a reserve army of labor. Even most mainstream, bourgeois economists will concede that unemployment is necessary, and many argue that it is actually a good thing.

The vast majority of people are alienated by their work. More and more people are experiencing downward mobility. People live in a state of perpetual insecurity. Firms hire more and more temp workers, freelancers, etc., offering no benefits and lower wages. People are more stressed than ever. And for what?

 

[DEAD7]

The means of production should be communally owned. People do not receive the full value of their labor under capitalism. Perhaps a system of labor credits could be used during a transitional stage.

Can you give an example of a nation practicing this today?

 

[Poitier]

The systemic logic of capitalism isn't compatible with that though. A high tax rate isn't good for business (it can discourage business, too) and it would just be a matter of time before those policies were rolled back by the bourgeoisie.

Things like unemployment are built into capitalism. There needs to be a reserve army of labor. Even most mainstream, bourgeois economists will concede that unemployment is necessary, and many argue that it is actually a good thing.

The vast majority of people are alienated by their work. More and more people are experiencing downward mobility. People live in a state of perpetual insecurity. Firms hire more and more temp workers, freelancers, etc., offering no benefits and lower wages. People are more stressed than ever. And for what?

Act like the Nordic states don't exist.

 

[JahFocus CS]

Can you give an example of a nation practicing this today?

In 2014, there are no examples of an entire country having these practices. Perhaps some communities and regions have elements, though. Marinaleda, Spain. Zapatistas in Mexico.

Whenever this has really been attempted, it has been undermined and attempted to be crushed from the outside. Did you know the Allied powers intervened in the Russian Civil War to prevent the Bolsheviks from winning? To, in the words of Winston Churchill, "strangle Bolshevism in its cradleboard." And the constant pressure capitalist powers placed on any country attempting to build an alternative economic model created distortions in those economies and societies -- having to put vast amounts into national defense instead of health care, infrastructure, development, etc. can wring any country dry and cause economic collapse. But none of this is considered in most people's "analysis."