Black Male Patriarchy So Bad That Sub-Saharan Africa Has Highest Female Entrepreneurship in World

Apollo Creed

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And I am saying that your point is overstated because Black Americans passed on Colleges and Universities and Banks and some of those institutions are 100 or more years old. Moreover, if White Supremacy is the test for whether patriarchy existed or not then Africans could not have had true patriarchy either; because whether you called it colonialism or slavery it was the same shyt. It was the institution of White Supremacy.

Africans HAD a true patriarchy which was disrupted. I made the statement eariler in the thread that black folks of the diaspora and on continental africa have lost the meaning of truly being the people of their original cultures.

And what black colleges and banks were passed down as part of a patriarchy? All of those things were community created institutions. A better example would be say the Bonner bros organization (even though it is terribly run).
 

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Patriarchy is oppressive no matter what.

Just curious, why do you look at African women starting businesses and being entrepreneurs and think patriarchy?

Patriarchy =/= oppresive

And don't even bother counter arguing b/c most matriarchal societies were swallowed up by patriarchies in war.
 
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Samori Toure

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Africans HAD a true patriarchy which was disrupted. I made the statement eariler in the thread that black folks of the diaspora and on continental africa have lost the meaning of truly being the people of their original cultures.

And what black colleges and banks were passed down as part of a patriarchy? All of those things were community created institutions. A better example would be say the Bonner bros organization (even though it is terribly run).

There are a number of HBCU's that are private so wouldn't they be passed down because of patriarchy? What about Black banks that have been in business for almost a century?
 

Apollo Creed

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There are a number of HBCU's that are private so wouldn't they be passed down because of patriarchy? What about Black banks that have been in business for almost a century?

No they wouldnt. Morris Brown for example was an AME created institution. Your point would be valud if Morris Brown was created by a family and only people from that family could lead the school. What HBCUs meet that criteria? Most HBCUs were started by religious organizations, government grants, or people of a community joining together.

For example Chick fil A is a white patriarchy creation. It was created by a head of the family and it will sustain a standard of living for all of his descendants.
 

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You're entirely right, education is one of, if not the, most important factor. Its no coincidence that Burkina Faso has one of the lowest literacy rates in the world and one of the highest rates of FGM.
Unfortunately, European underdevelopment has caused many issues with current development of education systems in a number of these countries. Not to mention religious indoctrination and the development of conflict zones. If most of the posters on this board weren't so incredibly focused on obsessing about starting businesses, and actually cared about the issue, there could be a far more robust conversation on this board about it.
We should make a thread on it in higher learning.
 

Samori Toure

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No they wouldnt. Morris Brown for example was an AME created institution. Your point would be valud if Morris Brown was created by a family and only people from that family could lead the school. What HBCUs meet that criteria? Most HBCUs were started by religious organizations, government grants, or people of a community joining together.

For example Chick fil A is a white patriarchy creation. It was created by a head of the family and it will sustain a standard of living for all of his descendants.

According to Lerners Dictionary definition of Patriarchy is a family, group, or government controlled by a man or a group of men
Patriarchy - Definition for English-Language Learners from Merriam-Webster's Learner's Dictionary

I get your definition of patriarchy, but in reality patriarchy extends past just the family; it extends to a group or government as well. Like I stated we can agree to disagree.
 

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According to Lerners Dictionary definition of Patriarchy is a family, group, or government controlled by a man or a group of men
Patriarchy - Definition for English-Language Learners from Merriam-Webster's Learner's Dictionary

I get your definition of patriarchy, but in reality patriarchy extends past just the family; it extends to a group or government as well. Like I stated we can agree to disagree.

I'm speaking from a traditional west african perspective, so honestly I can careless about how non Africans defjne it. I agree we can agree to disagree.
 

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Problem 1: Using white terminology to describe what was going on in pre-colonial, ancient African societies prior to contact with whites is the first issue here.

Western terms are devisive by nature because the West interprets things rigidly and categorically.

Most African societies were far more egalitarian and fluid than Western societies. There was both male and female leadership depending on what societies you are referencing, AND elder leadership or seniority trumped even gendered rule.
So slapping the title of "patriarchy or matriarchy" on traditional African leadership is oversimplifying and harmful to discourse.
In lieu of these misleading terms, I'd encourage terms such as Traditional African leadership or Blk male leadership because Western patriarchy isn't descriptive enough to truly describe what was goin on there.

Problem 2:
The fluidity of various African cultures is what allowed African women more freedom in these societies. It was also a de-emphasis on gender vs a hard emphasis on age and seniority in terms of power. There were gender roles but important power aspects of leadership (i.e. Both male and female councils) land ownership (women were given plots of land in many African communities for their own farms), decision making (males and female elders contributed to decisions in communities), economic independence (for instance female business guilds in pre-colonial Nigeria) were dominated by males but shared with women. Moreover if and when females were better suited for leadership, these communities were supportive.

European contact is what instigated gender wars. They wanted land ownership and in many cases they saw that there was one unprecedented factor in their way: blk women. African women traditionally were land owners due to being the childbearers. They tended their own gardens for their husband and children. And also had economic influence due to control over profits from surplus from their gardens.

To gain access to these lands, Europeans spoke to African males and got them to undermine African female leadership in different areas b/c it hurt their land and resource interests. Much of the seizement of land from female owners led to starvation and famine because this land was given to whites for cash cropping and other environmentally harmful farming practices.

The adoption of harmful gender ideas from the West followed Africans even in diaspora. Where blk women were looked at as masculine for knowing about enterprises that Westerners considered masculine such as agriculture. The adoption of b*stardized versions of Christianity further emphasized males over females.

Some blk men adopted harmful White ideas about patriarchy and in turn many blk chicks adopted harmful white ideas about feminism. And here we are today still adopting a bunch of white red pill/PUA rhetoric from our white brethren which has led to a social rift.

(Give me a second to pull sources for this info while ya'll call me out my name for holding our community accountable.

"Fukk u fat bytch!" "Man-hater!":francis::comeon:)

Bottom line: Blk men and blk women never had these issues prior to divisive ideologies namely the idea that women are inferior (whole damn lineages of African queens) or that male leadership is harmful being introduced to our community via the West. And why did the West introduce this shyt to Africa? Because the power of its women were standing in the way of the scramble for land ownership in Africa. What better way to get rid of them than to encourage their men to get those "manly land owning heffers" under control, you inferior egalitarian African man!
And some blk female hating blk dudes keep falling for this shyt even today, hook, line, and sinker.
:scust:
Sources: Women and Society in Pre-Colonial Iyede-book
Women, Power and Society-article
» Gender & Power Women & Religion in Africa

Ya'll REALLY need to read about how colonialism fukked gender roles in Africa and in the African diaspora and in other ethnic communities. I know this all gonna fall on deaf ears because some are too far gone down the gender war rabbit hole but ah well. Truth is worth telling even when nobody is listening.
 

Samori Toure

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Problem 1: Using white terminology to describe what was going on in pre-colonial, ancient African societies prior to contact with whites is the first issue here.

Western terms are devisive by nature because the West interprets things rigidly and categorically.

Most African societies were far more egalitarian and fluid than Western societies. There was both male and female leadership depending on what societies you are referencing, AND elder leadership or seniority trumped even gendered rule.
So slapping the title of "patriarchy or matriarchy" on traditional African leadership is oversimplifying and harmful to discourse.
In lieu of these misleading terms, I'd encourage terms such as Traditional African leadership or Blk male leadership because Western patriarchy isn't descriptive enough to truly describe what was goin on there.

Problem 2:
The fluidity of various African cultures is what allowed African women more freedom in these societies. It was also a de-emphasis on gender vs a hard emphasis on age and seniority in terms of power. There were gender roles but important power aspects of leadership (i.e. Both male and female councils) land ownership (women were given plots of land in many African communities for their own farms), decision making (males and female elders contributed to decisions in communities), economic independence (for instance female business guilds in pre-colonial Nigeria) were dominated by males but shared with women. Moreover if and when females were better suited for leadership, these communities were supportive.

European contact is what instigated gender wars. They wanted land ownership and in many cases they saw that there was one unprecedented factor in their way: blk women. African women traditionally were land owners due to being the childbearers. They tended their own gardens for their husband and children. And also had economic influence due to control over profits from surplus from their gardens.

To gain access to these lands, Europeans spoke to African males and got them to undermine African female leadership in different areas b/c it hurt their land and resource interests. Much of the seizement of land from female owners led to starvation and famine because this land was given to whites for cash cropping and other environmentally harmful farming practices.

The adoption of harmful gender ideas from the West followed Africans even in diaspora. Where blk women were looked at as masculine for knowing about enterprises that Westerners considered masculine such as agriculture. The adoption of b*stardized versions of Christianity further emphasized males over females.

Some blk men adopted harmful White ideas about patriarchy and in turn many blk chicks adopted harmful white ideas about feminism. And here we are today still adopting a bunch of white red pill/PUA rhetoric from our white brethren which has led to a social rift.

(Give me a second to pull sources for this info while ya'll call me out my name for holding our community accountable.

"Fukk u fat bytch!" "Man-hater!":francis::comeon:)

Bottom line: Blk men and blk women never had these issues prior to divisive ideologies namely the idea that women are inferior (whole damn lineages of African queens) or that male leadership is harmful being introduced to our community via the West. And why did the West introduce this shyt to Africa? Because the power of its women were standing in the way of the scramble for land ownership in Africa. What better way to get rid of them than to encourage their men to get those "manly land owning heffers" under control, you inferior egalitarian African man!
And some blk female hating blk dudes keep falling for this shyt even today, hook, line, and sinker.
:scust:
Sources: Women and Society in Pre-Colonial Iyede-book
Women, Power and Society-article
» Gender & Power Women & Religion in Africa

Ya'll REALLY need to read about how colonialism fukked gender roles in Africa and in the African diaspora and in other ethnic communities. I know this all gonna fall on deaf ears because some are too far gone down the gender war rabbit hole but ah well. Truth is worth telling even when nobody is listening.

Dap + Rep.

The one thing that I will add that I think that many Black men and Black women everywhere can pretty much agree on is that in reality a lot of this gender stuff is kind of overblown as far as Black people are concerned. Black women have always worked and Black men have almost never been hostile towards Black women working, having their own money and/or having property. Stuff like that doesn't typically bother regular Black men.
 

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The one thing that I will add that I think that many Black men and Black women everywhere can pretty much agree on is that in reality a lot of this gender stuff is kind of overblown as far as Black people are concerned. Black women have always worked and Black men have almost never been hostile towards Black women working, having their own money and/or having property. Stuff like that doesn't typically bother regular Black men.
It really don't but loud minorities in our race always take the spotlight away from pragmatic hard workers who don't give a rats ass about none of this mess.
 

Apollo Creed

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Problem 1: Using white terminology to describe what was going on in pre-colonial, ancient African societies prior to contact with whites is the first issue here.

Western terms are devisive by nature because the West interprets things rigidly and categorically.

Most African societies were far more egalitarian and fluid than Western societies. There was both male and female leadership depending on what societies you are referencing, AND elder leadership or seniority trumped even gendered rule.
So slapping the title of "patriarchy or matriarchy" on traditional African leadership is oversimplifying and harmful to discourse.
In lieu of these misleading terms, I'd encourage terms such as Traditional African leadership or Blk male leadership because Western patriarchy isn't descriptive enough to truly describe what was goin on there.

Problem 2:
The fluidity of various African cultures is what allowed African women more freedom in these societies. It was also a de-emphasis on gender vs a hard emphasis on age and seniority in terms of power. There were gender roles but important power aspects of leadership (i.e. Both male and female councils) land ownership (women were given plots of land in many African communities for their own farms), decision making (males and female elders contributed to decisions in communities), economic independence (for instance female business guilds in pre-colonial Nigeria) were dominated by males but shared with women. Moreover if and when females were better suited for leadership, these communities were supportive.

European contact is what instigated gender wars. They wanted land ownership and in many cases they saw that there was one unprecedented factor in their way: blk women. African women traditionally were land owners due to being the childbearers. They tended their own gardens for their husband and children. And also had economic influence due to control over profits from surplus from their gardens.

To gain access to these lands, Europeans spoke to African males and got them to undermine African female leadership in different areas b/c it hurt their land and resource interests. Much of the seizement of land from female owners led to starvation and famine because this land was given to whites for cash cropping and other environmentally harmful farming practices.

The adoption of harmful gender ideas from the West followed Africans even in diaspora. Where blk women were looked at as masculine for knowing about enterprises that Westerners considered masculine such as agriculture. The adoption of b*stardized versions of Christianity further emphasized males over females.

Some blk men adopted harmful White ideas about patriarchy and in turn many blk chicks adopted harmful white ideas about feminism. And here we are today still adopting a bunch of white red pill/PUA rhetoric from our white brethren which has led to a social rift.

(Give me a second to pull sources for this info while ya'll call me out my name for holding our community accountable.

"Fukk u fat bytch!" "Man-hater!":francis::comeon:)

Bottom line: Blk men and blk women never had these issues prior to divisive ideologies namely the idea that women are inferior (whole damn lineages of African queens) or that male leadership is harmful being introduced to our community via the West. And why did the West introduce this shyt to Africa? Because the power of its women were standing in the way of the scramble for land ownership in Africa. What better way to get rid of them than to encourage their men to get those "manly land owning heffers" under control, you inferior egalitarian African man!
And some blk female hating blk dudes keep falling for this shyt even today, hook, line, and sinker.
:scust:
Sources: Women and Society in Pre-Colonial Iyede-book
Women, Power and Society-article
» Gender & Power Women & Religion in Africa

Ya'll REALLY need to read about how colonialism fukked gender roles in Africa and in the African diaspora and in other ethnic communities. I know this all gonna fall on deaf ears because some are too far gone down the gender war rabbit hole but ah well. Truth is worth telling even when nobody is listening.


The issue is people are assigning western definitions more so than Patriarchy being a Western concept.

Most African civilizations defined ones lineage based on the father thus most Clans and Tribes come from the Patriarch that started it. All because the term Patriarch is utilized it does not mean women served a lesser role. At the end of the day many tribes were created by Patriarchs who had polygamous situations. From an African perspective Patriarch is primarily used to trace ones ancestry/define the common ancestor. In African societies Men tended to be the Engineers of Society while Women were the Managers. Each role just as important as the other. In Western Society this is not the cause which is why people correlate patriarchy with oppression.
 

Apollo Creed

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The one thing that I will add that I think that many Black men and Black women everywhere can pretty much agree on is that in reality a lot of this gender stuff is kind of overblown as far as Black people are concerned. Black women have always worked and Black men have almost never been hostile towards Black women working, having their own money and/or having property. Stuff like that doesn't typically bother regular Black men.

Black people have always been a productive people. At the end of the day Relationships work on Men and Women working at what their strengths were as it benefitted the overall family/community. The wife being useless is a western concept being that White Men do not value their women for anything other than producing a child for them. This is why in slavery white men would have black females raising their children thus creating the white woman jealousy of black women. White women saw black women raising their children, being entrepreneurs before them, etc.
 
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