Beware of the dragon: Africa should not look to China IQ2 Debate

[CurrencyChase]

Yall need to look at the bigger picture..

BRICS
(Brazil, Russia, India, China
and South Africa)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BRICS

China sees Africa as equal allies. Not victims and beggars like the west did.

 

[Ms~Opinionated]

i think the best example of what i am saying is japan, japan has ZERO natural resources and yet its one of the biggest economies in the world, so resources are not necessary to develop

at the end of the day resources are sold in an open market and they are just commodities, granted countries can make some change from it, but actually get wealthy? not really, the countries that seem wealthy like those in the middle east have tiny populations and when the oil is gone their economies will be gone also

the reason why japan is wealthy, on the other hand, is because they can simply go to the open market and buy resources (for pennies or dollars) and then use their education to turn those raw material into products that they sell for hundreds of dollars

india is not a good example, india is largely undeveloped and its highly illiterate, in fact there are more hungry and illiterate people in india than in africa

the problem in india and in africa is that the educated people are a thin slice of the population as opposed to modern countries where even a janitor or grocery clerk is educated (or at least literate)

in fact i would assert that that is where europe really moved ahead of africa is when europeans started educating the lower classes starting in the 1600's pre industrial era

i think universal education produces economic growth in and of itself because it increases the productivity of the nation and because increased knowledge allows you to turn raw resources into manufactured goods, which is where the real money is at

but anyways, i think its irrelevant what china (or europe or america) does, i think you can actually plot the growth of african economies by the literacy rate of their lower classes

I understand about Japan and I understand about education, but education alone will not create economic development in Africa.

My point, is that these resources should be sold for money and not for infrastructure, because the infrastructure doesn't benefit Africa in any way.

I didn't say they would get rich off of selling their resources, but the sale of those resources should at least bring money into those countries.

Africa needs capital, Africa needs money.

What is the use of being educated and having a great idea, but not being able to find capital to fund your new venture?

There are a lot of educated and unemployed people in Europe now.

It's great to have schools that will create an engineer, but if that engineer can't practice his craft because of the conditions in the country then his education is for nothing. This guy is not just going to start building roads with a group of his buddies and no money.

Also, Japan wasn't in the same situation as Africa is today, neither was Europe. It was just after World War II and the Japanese came to America and studied and learned the best practices of American businessmen, then went back to Japan and got to work building their own industries.

African people are not in a position to send large numbers of their brightest people abroad to learn industry techniques and then go back home to build on and perfect those techniques.

Africa has a whole host of problems that education will not solve and that Japan and Europe didn't have. Poverty, Aids, Drought, Famine, Wars, Corruption, etc. Money could help a lot of these things immediately and give Africa what it needs to begin to build.

 

[The Real]

its obvious you have something against the chinese..

Are you getting paid by the Chinese government to post this garbage? What does correctly diagnosing the stakes of Chinese involvement in Africa have to do with some vague prejudice against "the Chinese" as a people?

 

[Blackking]

Truthfully, we shouldn't pretend that China has no agenda that will mainly benefit them and have the people of Africa in the same boat as they are when they deal with the West and with Western 'aid'

I could see if this was some form of true help...

The main focus of African nations should be to have complete control of their own resources. They are capable of refining those resources.... especially with increased awareness and education.

It wouldn't make sense for China to mine the oil in the US.. why does it make since for the West and China to control the people and resources of Africa just because supposedly they will educate them. If you are owned your education doesn't matter.

 

[Blackking]

Yall need to look at the bigger picture..

BRICS
(Brazil, Russia, India, China
and South Africa)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BRICS

China sees Africa as equal allies. Not victims and beggars like the west did.

This is good if true... but African nations have been exploited before and the Chinese are bigger and more ruthless capitalist than most nations.

Lucky the leaders are little more aware now.. In my opinion the larger more modern nations don't need them as more than just trading partners... The smaller ones need them only up until they are developed... and it would be better if the more developed African nations helped instead. NTM China doesn't care about the labor rights of it's own people, what do you think they will do to African workers?

http://www.economist.com/news/middl...rowing-fears-neocolonialism-are-overdone-more

"Only in Africa’s largest economies has China become less popular. There it is increasingly seen as a competitor. Jacob Zuma, South Africa’s president, who long cultivated Chinese contacts, was last year forced by domestic critics to change posture. In Nigeria the central-bank governor recently excoriated the Chinese for exuding “a whiff of colonialism”. Other Africans guffawed—in the past it was often the Nigerians and the South Africans who muscled into their markets."

 

[theworldismine13]

I understand about Japan and I understand about education, but education alone will not create economic development in Africa.

My point, is that these resources should be sold for money and not for infrastructure, because the infrastructure doesn't benefit Africa in any way.

I didn't say they would get rich off of selling their resources, but the sale of those resources should at least bring money into those countries.

Africa needs capital, Africa needs money.

What is the use of being educated and having a great idea, but not being able to find capital to fund your new venture?

There are a lot of educated and unemployed people in Europe now.

It's great to have schools that will create an engineer, but if that engineer can't practice his craft because of the conditions in the country then his education is for nothing. This guy is not just going to start building roads with a group of his buddies and no money.

Also, Japan wasn't in the same situation as Africa is today, neither was Europe. It was just after World War II and the Japanese came to America and studied and learned the best practices of American businessmen, then went back to Japan and got to work building their own industries.

African people are not in a position to send large numbers of their brightest people abroad to learn industry techniques and then go back home to build on and perfect those techniques.

Africa has a whole host of problems that education will not solve and that Japan and Europe didn't have. Poverty, Aids, Drought, Famine, Wars, Corruption, etc. Money could help a lot of these things immediately and give Africa what it needs to begin to build.

there is a lot of unpacking and rewriting that needs to be done in this post

lets start with your last paragraph which is fundamentally wrong

actually education is directly inked to poverty, aids, drought, famine and corruption

it doesnt matter where you live, a literate person will have more opportunities than an illiterate one and a billion studies have shown that poverty and education are directly linked

education is directly linked to the spread of aids, the more educated you are the more you are able to understand what aids is and the science of it and how its transmitted, and education about aids is the key to prevention

drought and famine can be alleviated by educating farmers and by coming up with techniques to deal with them, you do realize that there is a drought right here in the US that is devasting american farmers right? http://www.usatoday.com/story/weather/2013/04/26/drought-divide-usa/2115877/

and corruption is definitely helped by lack of education, it is easier to get away with corruption when the population is uneducated and illiterate

now wars, obviously happen regardless of education, but the rest of your statement is profoundly false, the problems you mentioned are directly linked to the lack of education and illiteracy of the general population in african countries

as far as capital, yes i agree africa countries needs capital, but that capital is not going to come from just selling resources, african countries can get capital the same way every country gets it, by selling bonds and by attracting FDI http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_direct_investment and by selling manufactured goods

which goes back as to why education is important, nobody is going to invest in a country where people are not educated, there is no point in building a car factory when the people cannot read

FDI is how japan, china and taiwan got rich

the main thing african countries need to do with resources is gaining the education to manipulate the resources to manufacture good to sell to the world

Europe is the the 3rd or fourth largest economy in the world, and they are for ahead of any african country by any measure, so im not sure what the point is about some europrean countries having high unemployment, the average unemployed european is about 100 times wealthier than an average unemployed african, so the education assertion still stands

as far the japanese they industrialized in the late 1800's, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meiji_Restoration that is when they started sending japanese to western countries, and at that time they were in the same situation as africa, but im not really following how that helps your point that education isnt important, it seems to confirm my point, unless im missing something

another good example is korea http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...Because-its-rulers-can-limit-their-greed.html

but the point is an educated work force attracts capital and is more productive and its the key to dealing with social problems

and the reason why an africa engineer cant practice his craft is that the rest of the population is not educated, so even if he wanted to build something he would have hard time finding enough educated people to help him build the road or the computer or the car

 

[CurrencyChase]

Are you getting paid by the Chinese government to post this garbage? What does correctly diagnosing the stakes of Chinese involvement in Africa have to do with some brick? prejudice against "the Chinese" as a people?

You're the one with the agenda. I showed facts while you bring nothing but negative talk about China and it's agenda but avoid countering the facts I brought up. Why is south Africa in the bric? Why would China exploit their allies? Do you see China exploiting Russia, south America and India? Who in the fukk would exploit their own allies while the world is watching? You too stuck in what the west and Europe has done in the past to realize the good that an allied nation like China, Brazil, and India is doing for Africa.

 

[Robbie3000]

I think the Chinese are treating Africans like equal partners for the most part. They don't take on the paternalistic attitude of westerners whose aid came with strings attached.

One thing i wish African leaders should demand is transfer of skills. Just as the Chinese demanded US companies form partnerships with Chinese firms so that skills can be transferred while projects are being completed. Projects that stipulate 70% Chinese nationals for projects should be rejected by any African leader with any kind of foresight.

 

[Robbie3000]

This is an interesting article that considers both sides objectively.


http://www.brookings.edu/blogs/up-front/posts/2013/04/05-china-africa-sun

 

[TLR Is Mental Poison]

What have we seen historically that makes them less trustworthy then America internationally?

Look how fast they are destroying their own country

What do you think will happen to Africa when they start outsourcing their "dirty work" to us

We have to be careful o

 

[Ms~Opinionated]

there is a lot of unpacking and rewriting that needs to be done in this post

lets start with your last paragraph which is fundamentally wrong

actually education is directly inked to poverty, aids, drought, famine and corruption

it doesnt matter where you live, a literate person will have more opportunities than an illiterate one and a billion studies have shown that poverty and education are directly linked

education is directly linked to the spread of aids, the more educated you are the more you are able to understand what aids is and the science of it and how its transmitted, and education about aids is the key to prevention

drought and famine can be alleviated by educating farmers and by coming up with techniques to deal with them, you do realize that there is a drought right here in the US that is devasting american farmers right? http://www.usatoday.com/story/weather/2013/04/26/drought-divide-usa/2115877/

and corruption is definitely helped by lack of education, it is easier to get away with corruption when the population is uneducated and illiterate

now wars, obviously happen regardless of education, but the rest of your statement is profoundly false, the problems you mentioned are directly linked to the lack of education and illiteracy of the general population in african countries

as far as capital, yes i agree africa countries needs capital, but that capital is not going to come from just selling resources, african countries can get capital the same way every country gets it, by selling bonds and by attracting FDI http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_direct_investment and by selling manufactured goods

which goes back as to why education is important, nobody is going to invest in a country where people are not educated, there is no point in building a car factory when the people cannot read

FDI is how japan, china and taiwan got rich

the main thing african countries need to do with resources is gaining the education to manipulate the resources to manufacture good to sell to the world

Europe is the the 3rd or fourth largest economy in the world, and they are for ahead of any african country by any measure, so im not sure what the point is about some europrean countries having high unemployment, the average unemployed european is about 100 times wealthier than an average unemployed african, so the education assertion still stands

as far the japanese they industrialized in the late 1800's, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meiji_Restoration that is when they started sending japanese to western countries, and at that time they were in the same situation as africa, but im not really following how that helps your point that education isnt important, it seems to confirm my point, unless im missing something

another good example is korea http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...Because-its-rulers-can-limit-their-greed.html

but the point is an educated work force attracts capital and is more productive and its the key to dealing with social problems

and the reason why an africa engineer cant practice his craft is that the rest of the population is not educated, so even if he wanted to build something he would have hard time finding enough educated people to help him build the road or the computer or the car

nvmd

 

[rantanamo]

LOL @ believing this is anything other than the same old story. Aid in the form of loans and infrastructure projects that nations can't afford to pay back or maintain. Oldest scam in the book by oppressors wanting to appear soft.

As for the allies. They and India are enemies. China has been fukking with their border recently and India is not happy at all. They aren't allies with Brazil either.

Its interesting how overrated China is right now. Especially in the west. We always have strategist come and speak, and they give a complete different picture of China and even talk about the perception that Americans have that China is far more powerful economically and militarily, while always underrating western nations including the US.

 

[Northern Son]

I heard that China has a home in hong kong for Mugabe should he ever be overthrown, is that true?

From what I've heard it's true . His daughter is living in a home in Hong Kong right now.

do you think this will lead to some sort of a revolution? Especially in this internet age Africans aren't going to sit back and let the Chinese get rich in their own country while they starve for too long I would hope.

Man, I think so. Just not in the near future. People are livid there and basically everyone sees the writing on the wall. If you do "business" with the Chinese you're in bed with them forever.

Thing is no one has the guts to initiate a violent uprising (I guess that's the only solution) because of the brutal measures Zanu-PF employ on dissenters. The violence in 2008/2009 has a lot of people hesitant. The government literally emptied the banks and looted every last penny, life savings and all and no one did anything.

The Chinese are basically allowed to do whatever they want and while people are extremely unhappy they don't want to risk their lives.

I'm optimistic though. People are seriously tired of the BS and something's got to give with the Chinese trying to supplant businesses and Zanu-PF (very) slowly losing its grip. I'm just not sure how long it would take.

 

[theworldismine13]

also, i had meant to add/explain, to those that do not believe education is directly related to the economy, the way education is directly related to economic growth is through productivity http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Productivity

the lack of education of the african worker makes him very unproductive compared to other countries which makes the economy weak

its like a mechanic for example in the US will be more productive than a mechanic in africa simply because the mechanic knows how to read and write and take part in more sophisticated methods and more sophisticated financing

the main way of raising the productivity is through education, and that applies everywhere not just in africa it applies to the hood here in the US, part of the reason ghettos are ghettos is that the inhabitants have low education and therefore low productivity compared to other workers

 

[the mechanic]

The west has some nerve criticizing china about africa

that was just 50 or so years ago


the europeans should just STFU ....except perhaps Switzerland , Norway, Austria and Eastern europe