Beware of the dragon: Africa should not look to China IQ2 Debate

[ogc163]

No. I am not.

Post Colonialism has shown the world that Africans need Foreigners more the Foreigners need them.

Where would Africa be without the billions of Foreign AID?

Show me an Africa that can stand on its own. I seriously doubt that it will happen. Nothing in Africa will happen without Africans begging and grovelling at the feet of the White man for money, Food, and weapons. That's what this whole stupid ass debate is about. China does business with Africa as equal partners= Bad to the Western Chauvinists. Whites giving scraps of Aid to Africa like an Unwanted kid on Child support= Good!

Sure, you'll counter with blah blah blah... it the fault of colonialism blah blah.. It's the fault of Europeans...Blah Blah.

Face the Facts. China was also enslaved by whites, Forced to accept a drug trade from the Europeans at the point of a gun, and had their country carved up by Britain, Japan, and the Dutch. They got the worst of Colonialism in East Asia, and now they are the legendary race of the Han. Excelling in every Diaspora on earth, and Every Han Chinese Country is a powerhouse of Intellect, economic activity and superior academic performance. Tell me what is the difference?

Hey jackass are you aware that George Atittey is one of the biggest critics of foreign aid to Africa and is ALSO a big critic of the "fault of colonialism" argument as well?

My beef with China being in Africa is that being dependent on a country propped up by asset bubbles is not smart as it relates to long term economic health, there have been similar arguments made by economist as it relates to China dependent countries like Australia and Canada (who specifically are dependent on the foreign Chinese investors in terms of increasing real estate prices)

This negro deadass wrote " the legendary race of the Han."

 

[Ms~Opinionated]

The jury is still out for me.

China is moving very strategically, but I can only respect it from a business perspective.

China knows that money leaving America makes them richer and America ultimately poorer. China realizes if they give Africans money for their resources, they (the Chinese) will be poorer and Africa will become more prosperous. So they instead offer infrastructure projects as payment for African resources, with no money exchanged.

Then they pay one of THEIR OWN companies millions of dollars to do the infrastructure project and bring in Chinese workers, so that all of the money stays in China, most of it never going to Africa. So the money isn't going from America to China to Africa. Money is going from America to China, Africa gets crumbs.

So now the Chinese companies own resources that they then sell to their own companies at a discount and Africa has one less thing to sell, but Africa got buildings and airports.

China is now underbidding highly established American companies for infrastructure contracts around the world. They will be able to do this because of the integration of their networks and their state owned companies.

However, I think I fear China more than I do any Western Power. Everything in China moves with one mind. I fear our (American) individualism is what will be our undoing. The entire Chinese economy is colluding with one another, yet collusion in American business is illegal in a lot of ways.

Too much competition, instead of too little competition may end up being a bad thing for us. Not because competition is a bad thing, but it is when you are competing with an entire nation that can decide when it wants to compete with each other and then decide when it wants to grant one company special advantages such as subsidies. It becomes a problem because American companies and Chinese companies are not competing on a level playing field. Much in the same way American gov't farm subsidies hurts farmers in Africa. China is doing the same thing to hurt Western business competitiveness. Given that information it is pretty clear what the next 50 years will look like.

 

[Mowgli]

Ur right, but this is not the reason I brought back this old ass thread.

I wasnt following you're lead bruh.

 

[theworldismine13]

The jury is still out for me.

The results will speak for themselves.

China is moving very strategically, but I can only respect it.

China knows that money leaving America makes them richer and America ultimately poorer. China realizes if they give Africans money for their resources, they (the Chinese) will be poorer and Africa will become more prosperous. So they instead offer infrastructure projects as payment for the resources, with no money exchanged.

Then they pay one of THEIR OWN companies millions of dollars to do the infrastructure project and bring in Chinese workers, so that all of that money stays in China, most of it never going to Africa. So the money isn't going from America to China to Africa. Money is going from America to China, Africa gets crumbs.

So now the Chinese companies own resources that they then sell to their own companies at a discount and Africa one less thing to sell, but it has buildings and airports. China is now underbidding highly established American companies for infrastructure contracts around the world. They will be able to do this because of the integration of their networks and their state owned companies.


However, I think I fear China more than I do any Western Power. Everything in China moves with one mind. I fear our (American) individualism is what will be our undoing. The entire Chinese economy is colluding with one another, yet collusion in American business is illegal in a lot of ways.

Too much competition, instead of too little competition may end up being a bad thing for us. Not because competition is a bad thing, but it is when you are competing with an entire nation that can decide when it wants to compete with one another and then decide when it wants to grant one company special advantages such as subsidies. It becomes a problem, because American companies and Chinese companies are not competing on a level playing field. Much in the same way American gov't farm subsidies hurts farmers in Africa. China is doing the same thing to hurt Western business competitiveness. Given that information it is pretty clear what the next 50 years will look like.

africa will never get rich from their resources regardless of how much china or any country pays the only way africa gets rich is by educating its population

 

[Ms~Opinionated]

africa will never get rich from their resources regardless of how much china or any country pays the only way africa gets rich is by educating its population

Selling resources for an building or a road or a dam or a hospital is pointless.

Selling it for money could have at least helped build schools in rural villages. You have a building and no money to buy books, when you could have had both.

My point was money should be flowing from China into Africa much in the same way it is flowing from America into China, but China has stopped that process with the way they have managed to "pay" for these resources.

This process will certainly leave Africa worse off, but they will have nice buildings to look at which Chinese people will soon move into.

Oh and while I understand you about the education thing, education is useless without economic opportunity. Before India began developing, engineers used to be homeless because there were no jobs. People would die to come to America because your education was wasted in India. That money from selling resources would have definitely stimulated the economies of those countries, that will not happen now.

 

[theworldismine13]

Selling resources for an building or a road or a dam or a hospital is pointless.

Selling it for money could have at least helped build schools in rural villages. You have a building and no money to buy books, when you could have had both.

My point was money should be flowing from China into Africa much in the same way it is flowing from America into China, but China has stopped that process with the way they have managed to "pay" for these resources.

This process will certainly leave Africa worse off, but they will have nice buildings to look at which Chinese people will soon move into.

Oh and while I understand you about the education thing, education is useless without economic opportunity. Before India began developing, engineers used to be homeless because there were no jobs. People would die to come to America because your education was wasted in India. That money from selling resources would have definitely stimulated the economies of those countries, that will not happen now.

i think the best example of what i am saying is japan, japan has ZERO natural resources and yet its one of the biggest economies in the world, so resources are not necessary to develop

at the end of the day resources are sold in an open market and they are just commodities, granted countries can make some change from it, but actually get wealthy? not really, the countries that seem wealthy like those in the middle east have tiny populations and when the oil is gone their economies will be gone also

the reason why japan is wealthy, on the other hand, is because they can simply go to the open market and buy resources (for pennies or dollars) and then use their education to turn those raw material into products that they sell for hundreds of dollars

india is not a good example, india is largely undeveloped and its highly illiterate, in fact there are more hungry and illiterate people in india than in africa

the problem in india and in africa is that the educated people are a thin slice of the population as opposed to modern countries where even a janitor or grocery clerk is educated (or at least literate)

in fact i would assert that that is where europe really moved ahead of africa is when europeans started educating the lower classes starting in the 1600's pre industrial era

i think universal education produces economic growth in and of itself because it increases the productivity of the nation and because increased knowledge allows you to turn raw resources into manufactured goods, which is where the real money is at

but anyways, i think its irrelevant what china (or europe or america) does, i think you can actually plot the growth of african economies by the literacy rate of their lower classes

 

[Domingo Halliburton]

I didn't read this thread, but if American capitalism hasn't gotten to it china will own Africa in 10-20 years.

 

[Northern Son]

Kleptocratic African dictators sold out the continent a long time ago. I saw Chinese fukking billboards in the Zimbabwean airport this last summer.

 

[Northern Son]

I said their Capitalism was more ruthless than the western form, not that they are more ruthless in general- something like overall ruthlessness is pretty much impossible to measure or compare in cases like these, especially since China's presence in Africa has not been nearly as long-lived as the West's.

Zimbabwe turned to China because the West doesn't like Mugabe of course, but Mugabe is a grade A despot/dictator regardless of the West's hypocrisy, and China is helping him maintain his power in a major way right now.

And he is only one of the corrupt African dictators being funded by China to exploit his own people. Notice how the countries with the most Chinese investment are also the ones with the most corrupt dictators- Zimbabwe, Congo, etc. That's no coincidence.

Yes, all of this is true.

Hes not that bad. He brought literacy in Zimbabwe up to 85 percent which ultimately will help the nation as the youth learn to better observe and find solutions to the nations problems. He will be dead soon so the people who are being educated now should have a good chance of bring some slow prosperity to the nation. Those illegal blood diamond mines should help facilitate this as well. When you're at the bottom, some corners have to be cut on human rights.

This is complete bullshyt. Literacy is not worth starving for. I was in Zimbabwe (and I'm half Zimbabwean) last goddamn summer and trust me what your saying is bullshyt. When Mugabe dies he'll already have a successor. Zanu-PF know what they're doing. The educated youth you're talking about have to sell crap on the highway because they're unemployed. I saw it with my own eyes. He ran Zim into the ground so he could become rich.

fukk Mugabe

 

[CurrencyChase]

I can't find a single, decent, remotely true sentence in this post. Try harder.

its obvious you have something against the chinese..

 

[CurrencyChase]

http://aiddatachina.org/

 

[CurrencyChase]

 

[CurrencyChase]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/global-de...china-commits-billions-aid-africa-interactive

 

[Sinnerman]

Yes, all of this is true.





This is complete bullshyt. Literacy is not worth starving for. I was in Zimbabwe (and I'm half Zimbabwean) last goddamn summer and trust me what your saying is bullshyt. When Mugabe dies he'll already have a successor. Zanu-PF know what they're doing. The educated youth you're talking about have to sell crap on the highway because they're unemployed. I saw it with my own eyes. He ran Zim into the ground so he could become rich.

fukk Mugabe

I heard that China has a home in hong kong for Mugabe should he ever be overthrown, is that true?

The educated youth you're talking about have to sell crap on the highway because they're unemployed.

do you think this will lead to some sort of a revolution? Especially in this internet age Africans aren't going to sit back and let the Chinese get rich in their own country while they starve for too long I would hope.

 

[CurrencyChase]

Dambisa Moyo - Dead Aid

Summary

A national bestseller, Dead Aid unflinchingly confronts one of the greatest myths of our time: that billions of dollars in aid sent from wealthy countries to developing African nations has helped to reduce poverty and increase growth. In fact, poverty levels continue to escalate and growth rates have steadily declined—and millions continue to suffer. Debunking the current model of international aid promoted by both Hollywood celebrities and policy makers, Dambisa Moyo offers a bold new road map for financing development of the world’s poorest countries.

Much debated in the United States and the United Kingdom on publication, Dead Aid is an unsettling yet optimistic work, a powerful challenge to the assumptions and arguments that support a profoundly misguided development policy in Africa. And it is a clarion call to a new, more hopeful vision of how to address the desperate poverty that plagues millions.

http://www.amazon.com