Ben Taylor’s Greatest Offensive Players Series

[murksiderock]

KG's lack of Playoff success can be attributed solely to the lack of talent around him.

The two times he had a talented team during his prime he:

1. Went to the WCF with a hobbled team and took a team with four HOFers to 6 games with the only other All Star teammate he had injured.
2. Was the best player on a championship team and anchored one of the GOAT defenses.

Most respectable NBA analysts understand this and thus rank him significantly higher than casuals do.

I'm gonna play Devil's Advocate here. I don't think KG is way overrated. But Taylor does slightly overrate him because he overreliant on KG's skillset as opposed to the results...

Garnett played 78.9 games/year in his prime, he was an iron man. Playing that many games a season, led his teams to 47.2 wins/year, I'm defining his prime as as a solid decade, 1998-2008...

47.2 wins/year is respectable, nowhere near elite winning though. He missed the playoffs 3 consecutive years while playing 82, 76, and 76 games, while cumulatively putting up 22/13/5. This was not a washed KG. He was missing the postseason in an era Pau was taking the Grizzlies into the playoffs, so don't talk to me about having bad teams (not you specifically, this is directed at everyone)...

This is a huge demerit to me, I can't get around it honestly. Three straight years miss the playoffs? While you have direct positional competition lead playoff rosters?

It would be less egregious if we always saw him elevate in the postseason but we know that isn't true. That '02 spanking that Dirk gave him H2H is egregious. We have people that seriously put him over Dirk, and my thing with that isn't simply the H2H. 7 playoff appearances in a 10-year prime, 5x Rd1 exit. I don't have much time to deep dive Garnett right now bit no, he's somewhat overrated. His skillset was legit and he definitely elevated poor rosters but he had his opportunities, man...

 

[Professor Emeritus]

So you are impressed that in 2016 Lebron came back from 3-1? So the other versions of Lebron couldn’t have done the same given the circumstances?

What Bron did in 2016, I think he only could have done between 2013-2018. And not even in 2015 (his back problems were throwing off his shot) and maybe not even 2018 (he didn't have the stamina anymore to play defense with the same intensity as 2016 while also shouldering the entire offense at that level). Before 2013, both his offensive and defensive skill sets as well as his mental game were not quite mature enough to pull that off. There's only basically 4, possibly 5 seasons of peak Bron that were good enough to do that.

Maybe 2012 or 2020 Bron would have found another way to squeak out a win somehow, but he wouldn't have won games 5-7 with the same dominance or performance that he showed in 2016.

 

[Professor Emeritus]

I'm gonna play Devil's Advocate here. I don't think KG is way overrated. But Taylor does slightly overrate him because he overreliant on KG's skillset as opposed to the results...

Garnett played 78.9 games/year in his prime, he was an iron man. Playing that many games a season, led his teams to 47.2 wins/year, I'm defining his prime as as a solid decade, 1998-2008...

47.2 wins/year is respectable, nowhere near elite winning though. He missed the playoffs 3 consecutive years while playing 82, 76, and 76 games, while cumulatively putting up 22/13/5. This was not a washed KG. He was missing the postseason in an era Pau was taking the Grizzlies into the playoffs, so don't talk to me about having bad teams (not you specifically, this is directed at everyone)...

This is a huge demerit to me, I can't get around it honestly. Three straight years miss the playoffs? While you have direct positional competition lead playoff rosters?

It would be less egregious if we always saw him elevate in the postseason but we know that isn't true. That '02 spanking that Dirk gave him H2H is egregious. We have people that seriously put him over Dirk, and my thing with that isn't simply the H2H. 7 playoff appearances in a 10-year prime, 5x Rd1 exit. I don't have much time to deep dive Garnett right now bit no, he's somewhat overrated. His skillset was legit and he definitely elevated poor rosters but he had his opportunities, man...

I didn't follow KG closely in his prime, but it always seemed bizarre to me that he put up relatively few points despite being such a talented player. In some critical games he reminded me of the passive version of AD, where he sorta just takes a few jump shots here and there and scores when the opportunity presents itself, but refused to be the guy who took over the game when his team really needed him to.

 

[Dem313wayz]

KG offensive game was mostly jump shots and in the post it was a turn around jumper or facing you up.

Defenses are more physical in the playoffs and his frame didn't allow him to consistently finish through contact and thus you get poor efficient playoff performances.

 

[ISO]

What Bron did in 2016, I think he only could have done between 2013-2018. And not even in 2015 (his back problems were throwing off his shot) and maybe not even 2018 (he didn't have the stamina anymore to play defense with the same intensity as 2016 while also shouldering the entire offense at that level). Before 2013, both his offensive and defensive skill sets as well as his mental game were not quite mature enough to pull that off. There's only basically 4, possibly 5 seasons of peak Bron that were good enough to do that.

Maybe 2012 or 2020 Bron would have found another way to squeak out a win somehow, but he wouldn't have won games 5-7 with the same dominance or performance that he showed in 2016.

Imo only 2009, 2012, 2016, 2018 Bron could have done that.

 

[fifth column]

What Bron did in 2016, I think he only could have done between 2013-2018. And not even in 2015 (his back problems were throwing off his shot) and maybe not even 2018 (he didn't have the stamina anymore to play defense with the same intensity as 2016 while also shouldering the entire offense at that level). Before 2013, both his offensive and defensive skill sets as well as his mental game were not quite mature enough to pull that off. There's only basically 4, possibly 5 seasons of peak Bron that were good enough to do that.

Maybe 2012 or 2020 Bron would have found another way to squeak out a win somehow, but he wouldn't have won games 5-7 with the same dominance or performance that he showed in 2016.

I don’t disagree with your premise but Kyrie exist

 

[MJ Truth]

What are we even arguing in here? Look at Taylor's top 40 list. He had plenty pre-merger players on there. Wilt and Russell are both in his top 10. He's not biased against eras, more against PF's and Centers.

I disliked the Wembanyama video because he was trying to down post play needlessly and acting as if skilled big men were inherently worth less because of their style of play and naturally lesser playmakers. It's why he loves KG and rates him higher than most people would when you factor in lack of playoff success as other players in the top 10.

I dislike Jordan stans as much as most rational basketball fans, but all of his resume is almost untouchable(Lebron and Kareem are right there). His postseasons hold up and even exceed his regular seasons. He was an amazing all around player. Dominated in multiple eras as the man.

There are literally no arguments AGAINST Jordan. You could argue that Bron or Kareem was better but that would be on the merits of them, not anything you would say against MJ. On the flip side, you do have obvious flaws you could point to with Bron or Cap.

 

[threattonature]

KG's lack of Playoff success can be attributed solely to the lack of talent around him.

The two times he had a talented team during his prime he:

1. Went to the WCF with a hobbled team and took a team with four HOFers to 6 games with the only other All Star teammate he had injured.
2. Was the best player on a championship team and anchored one of the GOAT defenses.

Most respectable NBA analysts understand this and thus rank him significantly higher than casuals do.

I'd say he didn't have championship talent around him but his teams were talented enough to win a series in Minnesota. A big part of the problem is KG didn't have that offensive mentality to dominate the game. Even back then I was saying I'd take Duncan over KG cause Duncan was going to force you to double team him which opened things up for his teammates. KG didn't have that mentality. He was comfortable just getting his points in the flow of the offense. Same with Dirk and Webber (minus the end of games) offensively. KG just wasn't that guy on a game to game basis so come playoff time they had tougher matchups. The talent was there for it but not the mentality.

 

[fifth column]

There are literally no arguments AGAINST Jordan. You could argue that Bron or Kareem was better but that would be on the merits of them, not anything you would say against MJ. On the flip side, you do have obvious flaws you could point to with Bron or Cap.

The argument against Mike is Bill Russell. Russell is the greatest winner, leader and best defensive player in his era. MJ is close with all of those plus the stats, impact and influence.

 

[MJ Truth]

The argument against Mike is Bill Russell. Russell is the greatest winner, leader and best defensive player in his era. MJ is close with all of those plus the stats, impact and influence.

That’s not an argument AGAINST MJ though. That’s an argument FOR Russell. With everyone else you can point out their weaknesses and reason that’s why X player is better. With Jordan we can’t really point out any weaknesses, we can only say that we may think another player is simply better.

 

[fifth column]

That’s not an argument AGAINST MJ though. That’s an argument FOR Russell. With everyone else you can point out their weaknesses and reason that’s why X player is better. With Jordan we can’t really point out any weaknesses, we can only say that we may think another player is simply better.

This is a good pointBetter is a position specific thing so it’s hard to use it when deciding on the overall goat.

 

[GOAT]

I'm gonna play Devil's Advocate here. I don't think KG is way overrated. But Taylor does slightly overrate him because he overreliant on KG's skillset as opposed to the results...

Garnett played 78.9 games/year in his prime, he was an iron man. Playing that many games a season, led his teams to 47.2 wins/year, I'm defining his prime as as a solid decade, 1998-2008...

47.2 wins/year is respectable, nowhere near elite winning though. He missed the playoffs 3 consecutive years while playing 82, 76, and 76 games, while cumulatively putting up 22/13/5. This was not a washed KG. He was missing the postseason in an era Pau was taking the Grizzlies into the playoffs, so don't talk to me about having bad teams (not you specifically, this is directed at everyone)...

This is a huge demerit to me, I can't get around it honestly. Three straight years miss the playoffs? While you have direct positional competition lead playoff rosters?

It would be less egregious if we always saw him elevate in the postseason but we know that isn't true. That '02 spanking that Dirk gave him H2H is egregious. We have people that seriously put him over Dirk, and my thing with that isn't simply the H2H. 7 playoff appearances in a 10-year prime, 5x Rd1 exit. I don't have much time to deep dive Garnett right now bit no, he's somewhat overrated. His skillset was legit and he definitely elevated poor rosters but he had his opportunities, man...

A 3 game sample size in ‘02 where KG was playing with a much less talented team is negligible when discussing a player’s all time ranking. People have him ahead of Dirk because he’s a better basketball player.

You mean those Grizzlies’ teams that had 7-8 guys averaging double figures and were led by a HOF coach? To suggest that was some carry job by Pau is utterly ridiculous. That is massive revisionist history.

This is all the same tired old “he didn’t win with the garbage rosters/poorly run organization he had” narrative. Ben Taylor’s argument is actually substantive.

 

[GOAT]

I'd say he didn't have championship talent around him but his teams were talented enough to win a series in Minnesota. A big part of the problem is KG didn't have that offensive mentality to dominate the game. Even back then I was saying I'd take Duncan over KG cause Duncan was going to force you to double team him which opened things up for his teammates. KG didn't have that mentality. He was comfortable just getting his points in the flow of the offense. Same with Dirk and Webber (minus the end of games) offensively. KG just wasn't that guy on a game to game basis so come playoff time they had tougher matchups. The talent was there for it but not the mentality.

You can’t point to a single series he lost in Minnesota that he should have won. Not one. They were outgunned talent wise every single time. It is no coincidence that the two times he had talented teams in his prime, he won MVP and DPOY and led deep Playoff runs/won a title. Had he had that type of talent consistently throughout his career you could pencil in similar results

 

[ISO]

A 3 game sample size in ‘02 where KG was playing with a much less talented team is negligible when discussing a player’s all time ranking. People have him ahead of Dirk because he’s a better basketball player.

You mean those Grizzlies’ teams that had 7-8 guys averaging double figures and were led by a HOF coach? To suggest that was some carry job by Pau is utterly ridiculous. That is massive revisionist history.

This is all the same tired old “he didn’t win with the garbage rosters/poorly run organization he had” narrative. Ben Taylor’s argument is actually substantive.

KG is like that imo I agree with Ben Taylor

7-foot MJ

 

[Professor Emeritus]

I don’t disagree with your premise but Kyrie exist

"Entire offense" was too much, but in those last three games Bron took 81 shots, 26 trips to the line, scored 109 points, and dealt out 30 assists.

That's putting up 2006 Kobe-level scoring and 2006 Nash-level distribution simultaneously while being guarded by two of the best in the game.


And then on the other end he managed 9 steals (peak AI averages) and 9 blocks (peak Dwight Howard averages) while switching everything and guarding everyone too.