Ben Taylor’s Greatest Offensive Players Series

Boonapalist

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I feel like that guy doesn't really let the stats and context lead him to the conclusions the way he pretends to. He's just as biased as the next person but he dresses it up more nicely.

If you look closely, it's a cleverly disguised Jordan stan trying to justify ring count as the main criterion for greatness but only when it suits one's own agenda.

The fact that he makes it a post-merger list is the first giveaway.
You know why it’s a post merger list? Because there’s not enough footage for him to do a in-depth video on pre-merger players.

And he’s a Jordan stan but has Jordan 3rd all time behind LeBron and Kareem? How does that work my Harden stanning friend? If anything he’s biased towards a certain playing style
 

inndaskKy

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You know why it’s a post merger list? Because there’s not enough footage for him to do a in-depth video on pre-merger players.

And he’s a Jordan stan but has Jordan 3rd all time behind LeBron and Kareem? How does that work my Harden stanning friend? If anything he’s biased towards a certain playing style
He put Jordan's peak (starting from 1989 when he didn't win it) at the top in a world where Wilt averaged 50. But of course he has a whole video about why it isn't supposed to be impressive.
 

inndaskKy

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I guess you don’t want Jordan to come out on top? It takes a lot of effort to come up with objective basketball scenarios where MJ is not on top so why go out of the way for that. Btw that guy is a Steph stan more than anything else
i-want-the-truth-tom-cruise.gif
 

mbewane

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No player has been “ misremembered” by the new analytics, Gen Z crowd of fans more than Allen Iverson. You go on Reddit and dudes will argue you down on how Steve Nash, Ray Allen, Vince Carter, etc, were all better because of X stat and Y percentage, and I always have to retort that literally NO ONE thought those guys were better in real time. I feel like Westbrook and Harden will get that treatment in the future.

Both are already getting it now. People have literally said that Harden was better than Kobe lmao
 

inndaskKy

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Bird is an odd comparison because I point out repeatedly that Bird shot like shyt from outside in the playoffs. :skip:

It's amazing that Bird is considered a great playoff scorer. He not only has mediocre playoff numbers, but he played especially poorly in a ton of critical games and doesn't have a great resume of amazing games. Most of his image as a clutch playoff scorer is based on reputation more than results.


But overall your point is fair. Harden kept his eFG%/TS% respectable by spamming threes and trips to the line, and by beating up easy first-round opponents. To understand how bad he was in the playoffs, you do have look a little bit deeper and see how much worse he played in big series, especially in games 4/5/6/7 in big series.
It's good that you bring up the free throws. The reason you can see why the Harden "choking" or being worse in the playoffs narrative is false, is by looking at the FT%. It's actually slightly higher in the playoffs.

FTs are all about dealing with pressure and yet are always the same basic shot. It's the one thing that is perfectly insulated from differences in defensive schemes they throw at you vs in the regular season, roster strength, matchups, injuries, coaches' decisions, referee f*ckery etc. Harden is overall better at the line in the playoffs. It's not the pressure that has kept him from winning it. It's all those other factors.

Yes he deserves criticism for the turnovers in crucial games and not shooting enough when needed. But that's never been the whole story. Truth is, outside of maybe Bron and Kawhi, he's put up more resistance against the all-time GSW dynasty at their peak than any other player. Cards just didn't fall right for him.
 

Boonapalist

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He put Jordan's peak (starting from 1989 when he didn't win it) at the top in a world where Wilt averaged 50. But of course he has a whole video about why it isn't supposed to be impressive.
That season Wilt average 50 isn’t looked favorably by types like him. They prefer Wilt’s 67 more.

And that’s why I said he’s biased towards certain playing styles. Wilt at that time was I guess was just looked at as a stationary black hole. While someone like Jordan moved off ball and passed the ball occasionally.

I think it’s one of the reasons he rated Jordan’s peak higher than LeBron’s. LeBrons perceived to be ball dominant(Bron Ball) while Jordan isn’t. It’s the same reason he loves people like Steph Curry, Larry Bird or Bill Russell so much.
 

inndaskKy

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What is the truth though? Put up everyone’s numbers/accolades/accomplishments/impact in their respective eras and let’s get to the bottom of it
Well that's the point. The greatness of players depends on context. But MJ as undeniable undisputable general GOAT is usually not a contextually nuanced claim. It's a lot of nostalgia and wanting-to-be-like-Mike too. He's obviously one of the main candidates but you can argue plenty of different ways.

In my opinion MJ couldn't have averaged 50 and played 48 minutes per game for a season in Wilt's era, for example. Nor get all those rebounds and blocks. Nor do I think he would've beaten those Bill Russell teams with Wilt's teammates.
 

ISO

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He put Jordan's peak (starting from 1989 when he didn't win it) at the top in a world where Wilt averaged 50. But of course he has a whole video about why it isn't supposed to be impressive.
Jordan has the highest peak ever and if you pace adjusted he’d average between 45 and 50 points a game in 1962 without even taking into consideration how much more athletic and skilled he’d be than anyone in that era although there would be things he wouldn’t be able to do then such as carrying, lowering the shoulder on drives, pushing off, traveling would be called more off his drop step but still overall his midrange accuracy, first step, acrobatics and athleticism would be devastating in that era he would have been better than Oscar and Elgin Baylor statistically it would be hard to imagine him winning too many rings with Russell’s Celtics though
 

fifth column

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Well that's the point. The greatness of players depends on context. But MJ as undeniable undisputable general GOAT is usually not a contextually nuanced claim. It's a lot of nostalgia and wanting-to-be-like-Mike too. He's obviously one of the main candidates but you can argue plenty of different ways.

In my opinion MJ couldn't have averaged 50 and played 48 minutes per game for a season in Wilt's era, for example. Nor get all those rebounds and blocks. Nor do I think he would've beaten those Bill Russell teams with Wilt's teammates.
Why play the what if games though, let’s look at the players and what they did in their era and compare their greatness. Let’s look at what the greatest players earned since this is basketball and not a pageant
 

inndaskKy

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Why play the what if games though, let’s look at the players and what they did in their era and compare their greatness. Let’s look at what the greatest players earned since this is basketball and not a pageant
Ok. So Bill Russell earned 11 rings in 13 seasons. What can MJ put up against that?
 

inndaskKy

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Russell is the greatest winner in NBA history, do you think Russell is the goat?
No, I think Wilt is probably the GOAT (especially in terms of peak). I value ability more than resumé/success. MJ has a case. Bron too. And Hakeem. I'm not the biggest Kareem fan, I would put him in a tier below. Shaq as well.
 
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