As a whole, the NBA has lost around 45% of its viewership since 2012.

[Loose]

Yea we blaming him. When they had Russ they got air time. when they had pg13(bum ass) they was getting air time. When they had chis Paul they got getting air time. Now we blaming sliver cause nobody cares enough right now for shai that he’s not playing on xmas

You named a bunch of players stern built up to show why silver shouldn't play shai btw. You proving his point silver doing a shyt job and building new stars

 

[Walt]

@Walt

Also I'll add to that -

We have players like Jokic, Luka, Shai, Giannis etc who in a lot of ways embody that entertaining play that folks supposedly claim they want to see back in the game. Players whom are the antithesis to the supposed robotic play of today's game. They're unpredictable, and/or creative, and/or display showmanship, and/or are wildly skillful, and/or physical getting their buckets.

They're "brilliant artists".

But the overwhelming majority of folks who're critical of today's product don't pay them any mind, and when they do, it's typically to shyt on them.

Which tells me it's really got nothing to do with 3s or how the game is being played as to why they don't find it enjoyable. They don't find it enjoyable because its American roots are slowly disintegrating (or at the very least being temporary replaced); these heros of the NBA no longer have the star spangled banner draped over them, but flags of different colors and symbols that are foreign. Which is why it's hard for me to take any sort of exaggerated critique about today's game seriously, when the complaints about people not finding it enjoyable can easily be solved if they watch these type of players (and their respective teams).

Their enjoyment has nothing to with the game of basketball, itself, but it's how they identify with the players/game.

Which needless to say, there's nothing inherently right or wrong about that, but I wished that they'd just be honest about it. That way that might stop lying to themselves and muddying the discourse about the NBA even more than it already is.

None of that applies to me though - Joker is one of my 3 favorite players of all time. I've never fronted on foreign players - Drazen Petrovic is one of the few jerseys I've ever owned. I don't love watching Luka (except when he's really on) because he has that Harden type of game where the ball spends too much time in his hands, and I half-love Shai, half-hate him (the foul baiting has gradually gotten more and more offensive). I used to like Giannis a lot, but I wouldn't call him a basketball artist at all (though his passing has improved quite a bit and the midrange looks better lately). I didn't dislike the Warriors at their apex, and I've always been a fan of Steph. I don't care about the American roots nor do I feel instinctual disdain for 3 point shooting. There are a lot of people I know - lifelong fans, who are very much nikkas without and sense of contempt for black players - who find the product less enjoyable these days. a couple of these people are closely connected to the game. I just think people are painting the pushback against the product with too broad a brush. It's not all outkick and MAGA folks. That type of person doesn't even care about the game.

 

[CHICAGO]

Those players aren't expected to ever win a title, most nba gms who value winning look for players that can defend. Trae youngs probably the only bad defender that gets somewhat players respect and has bad trade value around the league.


Luka is a positive defender from a team perspective. When you have the talent like Celtics to isolate him he struggles. 99% of teams don't have talent like the Celtics to expose luka.



Okc was tanking, if dort was still missing 3s right now he wouldn't be playing. This ain't 2010-2014 where you can just stick bad 3 point shooters in the corners and iso up top. Teams will exploit that.

NO HES NOT AND
NIETHER IS KYRIE.

THE ZONE DEFENSE PROTECTS THEM...

NON SHOOTING ASS
VAN FLEET AND JALEN GREEN
ARE THE STARTING BACKCOURT
ON THE NUMBER 3 TEAM IN THE WEST
AND NON SHOOTING AMEN THOMPSON
IS THE 6TH MAN ON THAT TEAM


​

 

[ISO]

@Walt

Also I'll add to that -

We have players like Jokic, Luka, Shai, Giannis etc who in a lot of ways embody that entertaining play that folks supposedly claim they want to see back in the game. Players whom are the antithesis to the supposed robotic play of today's game. They're unpredictable, and/or creative, and/or display showmanship, and/or are wildly skillful, and/or physical getting their buckets.

They're "brilliant artists".

But the overwhelming majority of folks who're critical of today's product don't pay them any mind, and when they do, it's typically to shyt on them.

Which tells me it's really got nothing to do with 3s or how the game is being played as to why they don't find it enjoyable. They don't find it enjoyable because its American roots are slowly disintegrating (or at the very least being temporary replaced); these heros of the NBA no longer have the star spangled banner draped over them, but flags of different colors and symbols that are foreign. Which is why it's hard for me to take any sort of exaggerated critique about today's game seriously, when the complaints about people not finding it enjoyable can easily be solved if they watch these type of players (and their respective teams).

Their enjoyment has nothing to with the game of basketball, itself, but it's how they identify with the players/game.

Which needless to say, there's nothing inherently right or wrong about that, but I wished that they'd just be honest about it. That way that might stop lying to themselves and muddying the discourse about the NBA even more than it already is.

They don’t give a shyt about American players like that either.

There’s an MJ-lite media campaign around Edwards right now, and yeah he’s somewhat popular, but he’s not transcendent. On social media when he gets amped up it’s always on some tongue in cheek, yeah a “real nikka in the league” but that doesn’t translate to the fanfare you would think.

It could be early for him although I’d disagree it’s year 5. In this day it seems harder to build a superstar athlete.

Look at the example I gave with Jalen Brunson. Highly skillful, aesthetic game, in New York, top 5 MVP candidate. Look at Tatum, prototypical wing with all the tools, Boston can repeat and he still wouldn’t be a driver of culture and ratings.

 

[No1]

None of that applies to me though - Joker is one of my 3 favorite players of all time. I've never fronted on foreign players - Drazen Petrovic is one of the few jerseys I've ever owned. I don't love watching Luka (except when he's really on) because he has that Harden type of game where the ball spends too much time in his hands, and I half-love Shai, half-hate him (the foul baiting has gradually gotten more and more offensive). I used to like Giannis a lot, but I wouldn't call him a basketball artist at all (though his passing has improved quite a bit and the midrange looks better lately). I didn't dislike the Warriors at their apex, and I've always been a fan of Steph. I don't care about the American roots nor do I feel instinctual disdain for 3 point shooting. There are a lot of people I know - lifelong fans, who are very much nikkas without and sense of contempt for black players - who find the product less enjoyable these days. a couple of these people are closely connected to the game. I just think people are painting the pushback against the product with too broad a brush. It's not all outkick and MAGA folks. That type of person doesn't even care about the game.

I think he’s responding to a certain type of Coli poster that isn’t either one of us. But to @tremonthustler1 ’s larger point - I do think a lack of identifying with the new superstars does play somewhat of a role in how casuals enjoy the game. Half of Ant’s appeal is that he doesn’t feel like a scripted character. Basketball used to be synonymous with black pop culture/hip hop culture. And these days - NBA players are moreso trying to be in New York fashion week and are incredibly brand conscious. It used to be that I couldn’t listen to 5 straight rap songs without some sort of basketball sports reference and that is definitely gone to a degree. But that isn’t why I personally don’t enjoy watching a lot of the game.

 

[ISO]

I think he’s responding to a certain type of Coli poster that isn’t either one of us. But to @tremonthustler1 ’s larger point - I do think a lack of identifying with the new superstars does play somewhat of a role in how casuals enjoy the game. Half of Ant’s appeal is that he doesn’t feel like a scripted character. Basketball used to be synonymous with black pop culture/hip hop culture. And these days - NBA players are moreso trying to be in New York fashion week and are incredibly brand conscious. It used to be that I couldn’t listen to 5 straight rap songs without some sort of basketball sports reference and that is definitely gone to a degree. But that isn’t why I personally don’t enjoy watching a lot of the game.

I’d argue the players today have less of a filter than ever.

Brand conscious? These guys don’t give a shyt.

LaMelo saying whatever in interviews, VanVleet calling all the refs bytches one by one, Ja willing to crash out every endorsement he has, Josh Hart a damn fool, even Jokic saying “no homo”

Todays NBA is tied to todays hip hop culture too

 

[JA_Carter]

Cooper Flagg is the last hope

 

[mbewane]

They don’t give a shyt about American players like that either.

There’s an MJ-lite media campaign around Edwards right now, and yeah he’s somewhat popular, but he’s not transcendent. On social media when he gets amped up it’s always on some tongue in cheek, yeah a “real nikka in the league” but that doesn’t translate to the fanfare you would think.

It could be early for him although I’d disagree it’s year 5. In this day it seems harder to build a superstar athlete.

Look at the example I gave with Jalen Brunson. Highly skillful, aesthetic game, in New York, top 5 MVP candidate. Look at Tatum, prototypical wing with all the tools, Boston can repeat and he still wouldn’t be a driver of culture and ratings.

Just catching up on this thread but for these two I would say their personalities play a big role in not being bigger than they are. Also the fact the Cs dominated the league so badly meant that Tatum didn't really have those big career defining "I'm the Man" playoffs games against serious adversity, and the whole Olympics situation didn't help either. Brunson is also more laid-back and KAT is kind of the sensation of the moment with the novelty factor. JB being a shorter guy should also play more in his favor with regards to the general public actually.

 

[ISO]

Just catching up on this thread but for these two I would say their personalities play a big role in not being bigger than they are. Also the fact the Cs dominated the league so badly meant that Tatum didn't really have those big career defining "I'm the Man" playoffs games against serious adversity, and the whole Olympics situation didn't help either. Brunson is also more laid-back and KAT is kind of the sensation of the moment with the novelty factor. JB being a shorter guy should also play more in his favor with regards to the general public actually.

Yeah but JT has been through deep playoff runs for a minute. He literally started his career with a bang/iconic play.


He has a 51 piece in a game 7…


Ppl don’t wanna fukk with dudes no matter what they do…it’s easier to hate.

 

[No1]

I’d argue the players today have less of a filter than ever.

Brand conscious? These guys don’t give a shyt.

LaMelo saying whatever in interviews, VanVleet calling all the refs bytches one by one, Ja willing to crash out every endorsement he has, Josh Hart a damn fool, even Jokic saying “no homo”

Todays NBA is tied to todays hip hop culture too

I strongly disagree with that. LaMelo isn’t saying anything that Shaq or someone else didn’t say on the court randomly in the heat of the moment after the game. He’s not in a big market so no one cares. You’re listing things that weren’t even considered to be not giving a fukk before - it was literally just an every day occurrence.

Pretending that these guys don’t walk around with carefully curated images through social media is being a bit generous. All those examples you mentioned I know specifically because they’re not common. I’m not saying they’re divorced from hip hop culture either - we’re a long way from AI rapping in videos with Jada and that feeling like the most natural thing ever.

 

[mbewane]

Yeah but JT has been through deep playoff runs for a minute. He literally started his career with a bang/iconic play.


He has a 51 piece in a game 7…


Ppl don’t wanna fukk with dudes no matter what they do…it’s easier to hate.

Yeah he has huge games of course but maybe it's more a demeanor thing he's not really pushing himself as a star imo. But yeah basic hate plays a part too, same with JB to a degree.

 

[CrimsonTider]

They don’t give a shyt about American players like that either.

There’s an MJ-lite media campaign around Edwards right now, and yeah he’s somewhat popular, but he’s not transcendent. On social media when he gets amped up it’s always on some tongue in cheek, yeah a “real nikka in the league” but that doesn’t translate to the fanfare you would think.

It could be early for him although I’d disagree it’s year 5. In this day it seems harder to build a superstar athlete.

Look at the example I gave with Jalen Brunson. Highly skillful, aesthetic game, in New York, top 5 MVP candidate. Look at Tatum, prototypical wing with all the tools, Boston can repeat and he still wouldn’t be a driver of culture and ratings.

This has to do with the overall decline in the interest of the nba in the 20s. If this was 2013 those guts would be mega stars

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

None of that applies to me though - Joker is one of my 3 favorite players of all time. I've never fronted on foreign players - Drazen Petrovic is one of the few jerseys I've ever owned. I don't love watching Luka (except when he's really on) because he has that Harden type of game where the ball spends too much time in his hands, and I half-love Shai, half-hate him (the foul baiting has gradually gotten more and more offensive). I used to like Giannis a lot, but I wouldn't call him a basketball artist at all (though his passing has improved quite a bit and the midrange looks better lately). I didn't dislike the Warriors at their apex, and I've always been a fan of Steph. I don't care about the American roots nor do I feel instinctual disdain for 3 point shooting. There are a lot of people I know - lifelong fans, who are very much nikkas without and sense of contempt for black players - who find the product less enjoyable these days. a couple of these people are closely connected to the game.

Then you represent the outlier.

The major criticism around today's game is about the 3-pt shooting. It's the overwhelming critique on this board and on social media. Wherever and whenever there is negativity about today's game, complaints about the 3-pt shooting aren't too far behind. Secondary to that is because Americans fans don't identify with Jokic, Giannis, Luka, Shai etc. Inadvertently contradicting themselves in the process saying they hate 3s, that they want more post play, midrange activity and a generally more physical habitat, yet these foreign superstars embody all that and keep that aspect of the game alive they supposedly fiend for, but they either shyt on these players or don't pay them any mind.

They don't embrace them, they don't appreciate them, hell, they don't even use them as as an example as to what the league should be.

Past that, it stands to reason that folks aren't going to like today's league for a whole manner of reasons: maybe hoops just isn't entertaining at this point in their lives; maybe they think there's a lull in the league with the old guard on their way out and young stars still on the rise; maybe with the infinite different forms of entertainment now they're more interested in something else.

Maybe in six months time they might become interested in the league again.

That still doesn't take away from the fact that consumers of the NBA have always hated, disliked or become indifferent to the product. The pushback to the league isn't anything new, it just may seem like that because everything is megaphone'd with social media.

I just think people are painting the pushback against the product with too broad a brush. It's not all outkick and MAGA folks. That type of person doesn't even care about the game.

Oh, I think you might have miscontrued my argument about that.

Right-wing puppets don't represent the majority that are criticizing the style of play today. They're the ones who took exception with the NBA embracing liberal and social justice campaigns (BLM, George Floyd, LGBT etc), and then effigized the league because of it. They're the ones who propagated things like the decline in TV ratings years ago. My point around that was, they use misinformation/disinformation against today's game. You then have other detractors of today's game (the ones who don't like the style of play) who latch onto that minsinformation/disinformation to layer their confirmation bias.

Take a look at this thread for example -

The OP used Outkick as a source for the alleged decline in NBA viewership, when the stats are wildly inaccurate. It's been debunked that the NBA has NOT lost 45% of its viewership, but the OP still hasn't changed the thread title or removed the source. Or done anything to remedy the discourse. It illustrates just how disingenious both these groups are that they're willing to twist and manipulate anything and everything to where their views or agenda about the league reflect reality.

Nobody is saying anyone has to like today's product, but folks need to be more honest and genuine with why they don't, and not think that just because they don't that everyone else feels the same. They're trying to speak the demise of the league into existence because they don't like it.

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

They don’t give a shyt about American players like that either.

There’s an MJ-lite media campaign around Edwards right now, and yeah he’s somewhat popular, but he’s not transcendent. On social media when he gets amped up it’s always on some tongue in cheek, yeah a “real nikka in the league” but that doesn’t translate to the fanfare you would think.

It could be early for him although I’d disagree it’s year 5. In this day it seems harder to build a superstar athlete.

Look at the example I gave with Jalen Brunson. Highly skillful, aesthetic game, in New York, top 5 MVP candidate. Look at Tatum, prototypical wing with all the tools, Boston can repeat and he still wouldn’t be a driver of culture and ratings.

You're not entirely wrong.

I touched on this in a few of my other posts, talking about DeRozan and Brandon Jennings. The former of which displays all these elements they supposedly want back in the game, but because they associate him with being a loser, they don't gravitate towards him. Just like Brandon Jennings had a spark when he started, but quickly turned into one of the more hated players on SOHH because folks viewed him as a cheap imitation of A.I.

It's not that they just have to be American, it's that they have to have a certain aura about them and they have to be perceived as being a winner.

They have to be looked at as being a hero.

Patriotism and winning - those are the two pillars of perception that this country is built on. It's the reason why the NFL is still the #1 sport in this country.

Ant fits the scale of player that people want, but because he hasn't won shyt or is considered 'the best of the best', cats can't fully embrace him. He's in limbo at the moment, and the next 1-2 years will dictate whether or not he just because just another face in the crowd or the face of the league that the American public want.

It's why if Jokic, Luka, Giannis and Shai were all American, and all on big market teams, all this doom and gloom about the NBA would be less pronounced, and despite there still being whispers amongst the discourse that they don't compare to past greats, nobody would be out here professing falsehoods about the NBA dying.

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

I'm old enough to remember when teams had a certain style of how they played based on the personnel of their lineup.

Now it's just a bunch of Mr Me too's firing threes

THIS

x.com

x.com

Is a crock of SHYT

This tells me you don't actually watch enough games.

It seems you just associate the league today with offenses being centered around the 3-pt shot as to being all the same. The whole cotdamn 90s was ISO ball, with clear outs, where every other possession would be 1v1 whilst everyone stood out of the way and watched. Once upon a time the game had strict roles for positions that were rarely ever deviated from, where PGs just passed and big men didn't venture out of the paint.

The league has always had elements where players and teams played the same.

Now every position can be a playmaker, or shooter/scorer, or handle the ball, or drive to the rim. You have a big orchestrating the offense in Denver, who operates from the top, high, mid and low posts; you have a shape shifting fast-paced offense in Memphis who endlessly move without the ball, cutting and diving and relocating like some damn ant colony; you have a offense in GS that moves the ball endlessly until they they turn a good shot opportunity into a great one; you have an offense in Sac who generate a substantial amount of offense in the midrange, working off different actions all in finite space; you have an offense in Dallas who torture opposing defenses in ISO.

There are plenty of different styles in today's game that are based on their personnel and coaching.