Anybody a pilot or air traffic controller? Who's at fault here...

[jaydawg08]

I’m not a tower controller (I work in a enroute center as an ATC) so my knowledge is limited in this specific situation

But it def sounds like each planes are talking to different controller. One is ground control, the other is local. One handles the movement of planes from the taxiway the other clears people for takeoff snd landing

Sounds like there wasn’t communication from ATC and both were cleared on different frequencies

I’ve been told by pilots that’s they typically will listen to ANY mention of the runway they are cleared to takeoff from for this very situation. Normally if there is a problem or a pilot questions something, they will say something

Sounds like training was going on ( which isn’t that surprising since training is always going on in facilities) but could have been a contributing factor

 

[FaTaL]

subs

 

[null]

Mentour Pilot

 

[jaydawg08]

Here's another one that seems to happen ALOT

Random VFR aircraft that are literal magnets to any IFR aircraft.. it happens so often with me, and I've been burned in the past with this exact situation. A slow VFR target will be moving along, right in the middle of a "busier" smaller airport and you have a sequence going and sometimes vectoring planes for an approach and this random 2 seat plane will ALWAYS turn right into your traffic

It never fails.

I got extremely nervous once, where I had to have someone climb back up an extra 1000 feet and make a hard right 40 degrees but thankfully they didn't respond to an RA, but they were literally right on top of each other.. VFR targets will always seem to run right into an aircraft, or climb an extra 500-1500 feet out of nowhere or make an extreme hard left/right turn all without asking for flight following.

 

[BigMoneyGrip]

Not either. That was weird. The ground controller gave taxi clearance but the tower controller cleared for takeoff. my guess is the tower controller screwed up

she says 2937, the pilot was cleared to cross runway 4 and repeated the instruction. Pilots are trained to do that to confirm ATC directions for other posters. The tower controller then steps on the ground controllers instructor clearing 1554 to take off. I don’t know who was wrong, but had to be a controller. Either ground shouldn’t have given clearance or tower shouldn’t have cleared takeoff.

Tower and ground are on different channels.. ground suppose to hand over departing flights to the tower to line up for take off

 

[Blackrogue]

OK so the first guy by runway four had priority. He was cleared to get on runway four. Normally you do last minute checks before you get on the runway, you also wait for any traffic that's approaching to land and clear the runway. Once you get permission to get on the runway its a few engine checks and waiting for clearance to take off depending on traffic in the air.

I think ground thought southwest would have passed that spot before he was ready to go so cleared him to do so then mistakenly cleared the other guy for take off. A mistake southwest being on the same frequency should have noted since that information is relevant to them .

The south west plane at the bottom of the screen was also given permission to get on runway 1 and was told of his traffic on runway four on his left and I think another on approach I think six minutes out so he needs to get out before it gets there.. Those were his conflicts. Take off after the guy on four and before the approach plane gets there.

The other southwest plane on near collision was told about the plane closest to him passing near his initial spot. After which he was cleared to go cross runway four via Charlie taxiway.

He repeated the instructions including clear to cross and if there's any discrepancy ground would have corrected him which that he wasn't cleared to cross but they didn't.

Its grounds fault they didn't get the timing down but...

BUT.... South west was fukking up in their lack of awareness. First you are on the same frequency so if you are crossing runway four why aren't you paying attention to who's lined up on there and who's approaching? Why aren't you crossing it like an important intersection? Some guy could have radio failure and emergency landing. You look at your environment regardless for information. You have to have some sort of mental image of what factors might affect you. Furthermore its good practice to not just cross a runway blindly or follow instructions blindly. He could have slowed down short of runway four to Countercheck activity. He could have also heard the clear for take off prompt. Maybe ground thought he'd use common sense and stop short.
Ground could have done a better job. Southwest should operate with better safety protocol and with better perspective of what's going on around them.

 

[Blackrogue]

Nope wrong wrong wrong… Southwest 2830 was told to line up and wait to take off on runway 1… JetBlue was already cleared to take off… The fukk up came when Southwest 2950 thought the ATC told him to cross the runway thus putting him in the path of the JetBlue plane already going down the runway..

Seems like the pilots of Southwest 2950 wasn’t paying attention to the ATC , because the ATC was clearly talking to Southwest 2830..

So it was the pilots of Southwest 2950’s fault for both paying attention..

And yes I have my private pilots licenses

The other southwest was cleared to cross via charlie and relayed it. Dumb ass just crossed blindly and was not listening to the chatter on the radio.

 

[Blackrogue]

Nope wrong wrong wrong… Southwest 2830 was told to line up and wait to take off on runway 1… JetBlue was already cleared to take off… The fukk up came when Southwest 2950 thought the ATC told him to cross the runway thus putting him in the path of the JetBlue plane already going down the runway..

Seems like the pilots of Southwest 2950 wasn’t paying attention to the ATC , because the ATC was clearly talking to Southwest 2830..

So it was the pilots of Southwest 2950’s fault for both paying attention..

And yes I have my private pilots licenses

I have my commercial

Jet blue followed instructions perfectly. Was cleared to take off. Was told South west on his right is holding off waiting for him to go. South west on runway one was told about Jet Blue and another plane on six mile final.

South west on near collision didn't relay any other information so no he didn't act like they were talking to him. He was given instructions at the beginning of the whole mess and relayed them and they didn't make any changes.

Personally though he should have stopped short of runway four just to make sure. He should have also paid attention to oncoming traffic. Paid attention to the radio. Once tower gave him the initial clearance they stopped getting concerned with him and more concerned with the two guys on the runway and the person on a six mile final.

But that ground control lady cleared him to cross. I listened again to the instructions. He just should have been more mindful.

 

[Kasgoinjail]

I like Delta

 

[Blackrogue]

the coil is full of morons who can barely operate a vehicle.. ain’t no pilots in here

guess again.

 

[Blackrogue]

I get that. And mabe I'm interpreting it wrong but even if he thought that the ATC said to cross in which he did because at 40-45 he "confirmed" his location, his intention and his call sign. Isn't it up to the ATC to correct him? That's thier air field and if they hear someone respond to them with wrong information on the repeat, they need to tell him no, That's not what was said.

I dont have a license but I've worked on Airfields for 23 years

Edit: I went back and listened again, and he was given clearance at :25

Yeah he was given clearance. There was no confusion of him thinking the instruction to the other southwest to line up and wait with traffic to the left made sense. He didn't relay it to confirm. His only communication is that lady gave him the route to follow from alpha via charlie to cross at four over to the other side to be somewhere by the tower.

Ground was uncoordinated. Even that move of telling the guy on one he can go now was OK but leaves a bad taste considering you told him to hold off for four. But I guess the plane on a six mile final played a part in getting him off the runway.

Southwest should just have better defensive safety habits like looking before you cross which is natural. You never know. And also paying attention to chatter on the radio. But the clearance to take off was given just before he got to the intersection. He had the most control to avert this.

 

[Blackrogue]

I’m not a tower controller (I work in a enroute center as an ATC) so my knowledge is limited in this specific situation

But it def sounds like each planes are talking to different controller. One is ground control, the other is local. One handles the movement of planes from the taxiway the other clears people for takeoff snd landing

Sounds like there wasn’t communication from ATC and both were cleared on different frequencies

I’ve been told by pilots that’s they typically will listen to ANY mention of the runway they are cleared to takeoff from for this very situation. Normally if there is a problem or a pilot questions something, they will say something

Sounds like training was going on ( which isn’t that surprising since training is always going on in facilities) but could have been a contributing factor

Yeah we do try to listen in on stuff that might cause conflicts. Some pilots even have random frequencies they go to away from the main one to chit chat and coordinate amongst themselves.

Listening again. Yeah it's two different frequencies. I thought its two different ATc perso

Here's another one that seems to happen ALOT

Random VFR aircraft that are literal magnets to any IFR aircraft.. it happens so often with me, and I've been burned in the past with this exact situation. A slow VFR target will be moving along, right in the middle of a "busier" smaller airport and you have a sequence going and sometimes vectoring planes for an approach and this random 2 seat plane will ALWAYS turn right into your traffic

It never fails.

I got extremely nervous once, where I had to have someone climb back up an extra 1000 feet and make a hard right 40 degrees but thankfully they didn't respond to an RA, but they were literally right on top of each other.. VFR targets will always seem to run right into an aircraft, or climb an extra 500-1500 feet out of nowhere or make an extreme hard left/right turn all without asking for flight following.

Glad I'm not ATC. I was trying to keep up with what's going on.

One guys not on the proper frequency. Good thing is hopefully visual weather from the time so he doesn't surprise you. In general though when you on a smaller plane you yield to these larger ones because they can run you down real quick on final and they use more fuel so its more of an inconvenience to them.

 

[jaydawg08]

Yeah we do try to listen in on stuff that might cause conflicts. Some pilots even have random frequencies they go to away from the main one to chit chat and coordinate amongst themselves.

Listening again. Yeah it's two different frequencies. I thought its two different ATc perso


Glad I'm not ATC. I was trying to keep up with what's going on.

One guys not on the proper frequency. Good thing is hopefully visual weather from the time so he doesn't surprise you. In general though when you on a smaller plane you yield to these larger ones because they can run you down real quick on final and they use more fuel so its more of an inconvenience to them.

Nice to see we have a couple pilots in here along with @BigMoneyGrip

I feel like the vast majority of “close calls” are with this exact situation.. one plane will have a takeoff/landing clearance while another is given the opposite.

We’ve never had any sort of middair collision or bigger crash between 2 planes in probably 50+ years. It will happen eventually I’m sure, but the flying public is safer flying than they are driving

 

[Skooby]

Another one. This one had the Gonzaga basketball team on it:

 

[jaydawg08]

Another one. This one had the Gonzaga basketball team on it:

Ehh this isn’t bad at all in the grand scheme of it all

There’s probably at least once a session I work where an aircraft doesn’t do exactly what I tell them, and I don’t give them a # to call unless it affects actual safety

Pilots will not make crossing restrictions, I’ve had some descend randomly, fly to another fix, fly slightly off course of their flight plan.. small mistakes happen all the time but that’s why ATC is there to correct it