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"AJ Styles Is Every Bit As Good As Shawn Michaels" - Kurt Angle
- Thread starter Silkk
- Start date
Bars4TheCause
Pro
Bobby Lashley
Brock Lesnar
@Scott_Steiner
Undertaker
Batista
Bill Goldberg
Kurt Angle
Eddie Guerrero
Rey Mysterio Jr
Macho Man Randy Savage
Booker T & Stevie Ray
Big Show/The Giant
I don't really like any of these new wrestlers these days. Most of them don't look like wrestlers, have little to no charisma/personality, and its all boring slow paced "technical" style matches these days its rare to see a brawl or a true cruiserweight match that isn't just spot after spot. I grew up watching the Monday Night Wars that technical style doesnt entertain me.
In ring ability in a fake sport. There's no such thing. Mike Tyson had incredible in ring ability. Wrestlers don't have any. Who you find entertaining in the ring is different from who I find entertaining in the ring. It's not a situation where one guy has more ability than another. Every match is based on at least two people's performance together and their chemistry together.
Only AJ we acknowledge is Lee
Malcolm Joseph
Microphone Checka
Great points, but the rest of this undermines professional wrestlers' dedication to their craft. I'm not sure anyone could perform like they could without "abilities". Ironically, MikeTy himself is a pro wrestling personality and would find it tough to sell to anybody that he had great in-ring ability. Interesting how you don't like technical wrestling but dismiss professional wrestling as having skilled performers. A technician without skills?
Bars4TheCause
Pro
Great points, but the rest of this undermines professional wrestlers' dedication to their craft. I'm not sure anyone could perform like they could without "abilities". Ironically, MikeTy himself is a pro wrestling personality and would find it tough to sell to anybody that he had great in-ring ability. Interesting how you don't like technical wrestling but dismiss professional wrestling as having skilled performers. A technician without skills?
I'm not saying wrestlers aren't skilled. They have a skill set that people outside of the business don't have. Nobody can just go out without any training and have a great match (although Vince has had some good matches I don't know how much training he had). I just don't look at one wrestler and think he/she is any more skilled in the ring than another. To me if I enjoy a match, its because I enjoyed the combination of both wrestlers, not the efforts of one. If I don't enjoy a match that one of my favorites is in, that doesn't mean the other guy sucked they probably just don't have good chemistry. As far as technical wrestling...I've seen a lot of it (I've probably seen more ROH DVDs than anyone here, my brother used to buy a lot of them) I just don't like it. I don't like Strong Style (aka no sell style) either.
Malcolm Joseph
Microphone Checka
You best believe Vince is a trained pro wrestler to some degree. That man has access to an incredible wealth of wrestling training obviously. Shane is another one.
Is it safe to say you like brawling or high-flying styles? I can dig that. Hell I grew up a fan of Goldberg and Paul Wight - captivating personalities. I appreciate matches for their booking too, fukking WWE gets more frustrated than it should due to wrestlers they constantly match together. Chemistry is often forgotten about when it comes to evaluating pro wrestling.
But I dunno about watching wrestling without noticing varying skill levels my man. You can tell when certain guys have special talent: Cesaro blows me away with his creative and physical skills. Ditto with Rollins, Styles and HBK. They perform well with brawlers, flyers, mat guys, whoever. Skill allows affords them versatility. I love Goldberg but he often looked lost if pitted against a mat guy or flyer. Great persona, entertaining wrassler, but he would admit himself that he was a limited wrestler skillwise.
Bars4TheCause
Pro
I like brawling and high-flying the best but when it comes to high-flying I specifically said cruiserweight because I generally prefer matches between two guys of the same weight class.
I disagree with those guys performing well with everyone. That goes back to my point from before. Performing well to me is different than it is to you. If I watch a Goldberg match with a brawler, a flyer, and a mat guy, and then watch a Shawn Michaels match with a brawler, a flyer, and a mat guy, chances are I'm going to enjoy those Goldberg matches more based on preferences. That's not to say that Goldberg is better or worse, just that I enjoy watching his matches more. To me, most brawlers should run right through a guy like Shawn Michaels as I need a match to be believable and what can he really do in a brawl against bigger guys who specialize in brawling? In that regard Goldberg is better matches against those three types of wrestlers as Goldberg has skill on the mat, should always do good in a brawl, and most flyers are going to be smaller than him so he should be able to use his power to his advantage.
There might be some degree of skill levels, but its all subjective and I don't care for the rhetoric on the internet where everyone seems to mostly think the same. How can that be the case with something so subjective? Not to be a dikk and not directing this at anyone here or TSC in general, but a lot of wrestling fans are sheep. Meltzer or someone will say someone's great or someone sucks and the fans will already expect that person to be great or to suck before they see them, never giving the fans a chance to truly see for themselves if they do like them.
As far as Goldberg admitting he's limited, I think its something he's always heard and probably believes, but I don't agree.
I appreciate your posts and taking the time to read mine, this is one of the better discussions I've had on TSC.
Great post, I agree with a lot of this, mainly the Goldberg thing. I look at wrestling as a fictional TV show about a fighting league, it works best when it's treated like that. Goldberg is a very good worker to me because he plays his character very convincingly and it's an exciting character. His matches tend to look believable and like he's trying to hurt his opponent and end the match more than a lot of guys. With one of these "great workers" like HBK, it's like he can't hurt his opponent or be hurt. Nothing really matters, it just is visually appealing and requires athleticism.
Not that many guys, especially now, have that "I'm trying to hurt you or win the match at all times" thing to their matches. That's not necessarily the same as being stiff either, there are ROH/Japan guys who will kick/slap the sh1t out of each other and it still seems closer to a celebration of choreography, athleticism, and grace (like ballet or figure skating) than a struggle
Bars4TheCause
Pro
Malcolm Joseph
Microphone Checka
I like brawling and high-flying the best but when it comes to high-flying I specifically said cruiserweight because I generally prefer matches between two guys of the same weight class.
I disagree with those guys performing well with everyone. That goes back to my point from before. Performing well to me is different than it is to you. If I watch a Goldberg match with a brawler, a flyer, and a mat guy, and then watch a Shawn Michaels match with a brawler, a flyer, and a mat guy, chances are I'm going to enjoy those Goldberg matches more based on preferences. That's not to say that Goldberg is better or worse, just that I enjoy watching his matches more. To me, most brawlers should run right through a guy like Shawn Michaels as I need a match to be believable and what can he really do in a brawl against bigger guys who specialize in brawling? In that regard Goldberg is better matches against those three types of wrestlers as Goldberg has skill on the mat, should always do good in a brawl, and most flyers are going to be smaller than him so he should be able to use his power to his advantage.
There might be some degree of skill levels, but its all subjective and I don't care for the rhetoric on the internet where everyone seems to mostly think the same. How can that be the case with something so subjective? Not to be a dikk and not directing this at anyone here or TSC in general, but a lot of wrestling fans are sheep. Meltzer or someone will say someone's great or someone sucks and the fans will already expect that person to be great or to suck before they see them, never giving the fans a chance to truly see for themselves if they do like them.
As far as Goldberg admitting he's limited, I think its something he's always heard and probably believes, but I don't agree.
I appreciate your posts and taking the time to read mine, this is one of the better discussions I've had on TSC.
Ayyyyy, no doubt mane. I like how you articulate how you watch wrassling. Most times people forget how subjective that shyt is. I think everyone praises the same sort of wrestling based on popular opinion and never really get a chance to enjoy it first and figure out what they liked in the first place.
For the record my favorite wrestlers are Jeff Hardy and Pentagon Jr. What can I say? your boy like crazy face-painted dudes.
Great points, but the rest of this undermines professional wrestlers' dedication to their craft. I'm not sure anyone could perform like they could without "abilities". Ironically, MikeTy himself is a pro wrestling personality and would find it tough to sell to anybody that he had great in-ring ability. Interesting how you don't like technical wrestling but dismiss professional wrestling as having skilled performers. A technician without skills?
He doesn't like technical wrestling but likes Eddie Guerrero and Kurt Angle?
Contradicting himself.