After rewatching The Wire, I think it's safe to say Stringer>Avon.

[Verbal Kint]

We are talking about two different things.
You are talking about crime organizations that are based on being a certain ethnicity and all their crime activities are to the upliftment of those people. That takes generations and is difficult to accomplish.
That's not what Avon, Stringer and Marlo were doing. They are selling drugs in their own community to their own ethnic group to enrich themselves. They and the commission Stringer set up are not in it for the long haul to 'go legitimate'. They were short sighted and didn't come at it from that angle, all they wanted was to cake off individually and keep the cops out of there business. No individual can play it like you are suggesting and make it to the end of the game that way, it takes a group that is dedicated to it generation after generation.

That's some 'I know all I know about organized crime from TV' type perspective. That's what the Godfather wants you to think. IRL them Italian and Irish mobsters were no different than cats like Avon, they just were more structured. They literally terrorized their communities which is what protection rackets were about. They weren't uplifting their 'people', just their own pockets and would steal from each other and kill each other whenever necessary. Don't fall for that lie that these guys were somehow 'honorable' or white collar. They were thugs in every sense of the word but they had structure. They, as much as anyone insured that black organizations didn't have that structure because they were a threat.

 

[Verbal Kint]

That's not David Simons blog its a random blog with a random quote. D'Angelo caught the body and was told to put everything on Weebay. That's why the detective was disappointed because he wanted D'Angelo to confess to his body.

If he verbally confessed they can use it against him. You need to watch the show again.

nikka are you seriously arguing that the blog of one of the premier TV reviewers with a direct interview and quote from the creator of the show is wrong? :beybey: So Sepinwall is just making up quotes and never been called on it? :beybey::beybey:

 

[AnonymityX1000]

That's some 'I know all I know about organized crime from TV' type perspective. That's what the Godfather wants you to think. IRL them Italian and Irish mobsters were no different than cats like Avon, they just were more structured. They literally terrorized their communities which is what protection rackets were about. They weren't uplifting their 'people', just their own pockets and would steal from each other and kill each other whenever necessary. Don't fall for that lie that these guys were somehow 'honorable' or white collar. They were thugs in every sense of the word but they had structure. They, as much as anyone insured that black organizations didn't have that structure because they were a threat.

Is it true you have to be Sicilian to get 'made' in the real mob? That's something we never had. And it is a more family thing past down from generations.
And Avon was more on some real mob shyt that Stringer. He was about his family and securing his territory and fukk the other (east) side just cause they weren't his team. Once you are solidified in a region for generations THEN you might partner with groups from another region. Stringer making nice with groups in his own territory is like rushing the mafia model. He really did it cause he was weak muscle wise.

 

[FTBS]

Ya'll keep saying this nonsense and completely ignore that String was the 1A in the biggest drug operation in the city. How can you not have streetsmarts and get to that point? Avon even talks about when they was young nikkas shoplifting so it ain't like he came around later, String was there from the jump. He was handling business, ordering hits, doing all sorts of stuff and the police were nowhere near touching him. All his mistakes came from trying to clean up the mess when he went behind Avon's back with the Prop Joe stuff. nikkas act like cause they saw String as a grown man trying to make different moves that he'd never been in the streets. He was trying to do what all those that actually make it out/profit from that game do and use it to launch to bigger things. Just like those organized crime cats do. They eventually get far away from the day to day. Shoot look at the Greeks in the show. They were far removed from the nitty gritty of what they did, just had meets here and there

I am not suggesting that his distance from the actual street operation was the issue. I am questioning his decision making based upon the situation he put himself in prior to his death and even his death itself. Obviously, he had to have a certain level of street smarts but those missteps suggest he was lacking in that area. As far as his street experience goes, even Avon questioned that.

 

[Verbal Kint]

Is it true you have to be Sicilian to get 'made' in the real mob? That's something we never had. And it is a more family thing past down from generations.
And Avon was more on some real mob shyt that Stringer. He was about his family and securing his territory and fukk the other (east) side just cause they weren't his team. Once you are solidified in a region for generations THEN you might partner with groups from another region. Stringer making nice with groups in his own territory is like rushing the mafia model. He really did it cause he was weak muscle wise.

For the mob families that originated in Sicily, sure. But 'made' guys were a tiny percentage of people involved in the mob. For instance there may be 1 boss with a few lieutenants who are made guys but there could be hundreds of other guys under them that are just guys. Some could be Italian but some weren't. Some of it was family based but mostly it was just cats that were down for the get down that got involved at some point. Its like anything else. Just cause you're deep in crime doesn't mean you want that for your kids. The 'family' aspect had far less to do with the mob and more their cultural norms as Italians. And remember these Italians didn't come to the US in droves until the 20th century so you're talking 1st and 2nd generation folks that live in Italian neighborhoods so they were still extremely Italian in their culture. And that's just the Italian mob. And again, there's no real 'mob style' in terms of working with other groups. Mobs moved like anyone else; try to get more territory when possible, make alliances when beneficial. Mob cats were greedy too. Thing was they did have enough structure to feel secure in what operations they did have. Avon's weakness was needing to dominate. String was right that they all couldve ate off Prop Joes package and all couldve done well without all the other nonsense. Avon couldn't leave the game which is what got him caught up.

 

[Nemesis]

I am not suggesting that his distance from the actual street operation was the issue. I am questioning his decision making based upon the situation he put himself in prior to his death and even his death itself. Obviously, he had to have a certain level of street smarts but those missteps suggest he was lacking in that area. As far as his street experience goes, even Avon questioned that.

Stringer was more intelligent than Avon

Avon was smarter than stringer



People cant have it both ways, Avon wouldnt have been able to legitimise a lot of the drug money as well as Stringer did..... that was Stringers role which he performed well

Stringer made two key errors, the first was getting involved with politicians (from personal knowledge I can tell you they are the grimiest scum of the earth with zero morals)

The second was assuming that he could run it along the same lines as a legit business , he wanted to revolutionise the game, obviously no beef = no violence = no bodies = less police , all the police were concerned about was keeping the murder stats down, problem was you cant be reasonable when dealing with unreasonable people they would just see him as food

when you are making that much money you need a "Stringer" in your organisation ,

problem was he wasnt a street soldier

Its like when Michael Corleone replaced Tom Hagen as consigliere because he wasnt a war counsel

 

[Verbal Kint]

I am not suggesting that his distance from the actual street operation was the issue. I am questioning his decision making based upon the situation he put himself in prior to his death and even his death itself. Obviously, he had to have a certain level of street smarts but those missteps suggest he was lacking in that area. As far as his street experience goes, even Avon questioned that.

Avon himself said 'you be a little slow, a little late'. Stringer moved in silence for years then made 1 (or a few) screwups that got him caught up. That doesn't mean he lacks street smarts. By that logic every nikka on the show lacks street smarts because they all got caught up at some point. If you move in that world something will get you. And Avon questioned him after they'd already been beefing for a while. He was heated. Not only that but String proved with the D stuff that being 'soft' wasn't an issue he had. He overthought stuff and ignored the rules at times but he wasn't soft.

 

[AnonymityX1000]

For the mob families that originated in Sicily, sure. But 'made' guys were a tiny percentage of people involved in the mob. For instance there may be 1 boss with a few lieutenants who are made guys but there could be hundreds of other guys under them that are just guys. Some could be Italian but some weren't. Some of it was family based but mostly it was just cats that were down for the get down that got involved at some point. Its like anything else. Just cause you're deep in crime doesn't mean you want that for your kids. The 'family' aspect had far less to do with the mob and more their cultural norms as Italians. And remember these Italians didn't come to the US in droves until the 20th century so you're talking 1st and 2nd generation folks that live in Italian neighborhoods so they were still extremely Italian in their culture. And that's just the Italian mob. And again, there's no real 'mob style' in terms of working with other groups. Mobs moved like anyone else; try to get more territory when possible, make alliances when beneficial. Mob cats were greedy too. Thing was they did have enough structure to feel secure in what operations they did have. Avon's weakness was needing to dominate. String was right that they all couldve ate off Prop Joes package and all couldve done well without all the other nonsense. Avon couldn't leave the game which is what got him caught up.

I know how the mob works. My point about the Sicilians having 'made guys' is it was deeper than just crime. That status and only being reserved for a certain ethnicity is the proof.
I disagree, Avon made his mistakes but he was overall right about the game. Look where consolidation got them all robbed by Omar.

 

[Verbal Kint]

I know how the mob works. My point about the Sicilians having 'made guys' is it was deeper than just crime. That status and only being reserved for a certain ethnicity is the proof.
I disagree, Avon made his mistakes but he was overall right about the game. Look where consolidation got them all robbed by Omar.

Eh, that 'deeper than just crime' stuff is largely nonsense that largely came from the glorification of the mob from the Godfather and Goodfellas and all that. That 'family' stuff is way overblown. Plus a large reason 'made' guys had to be Sicillian was so that the bosses back in Italy could get at their families if they messed up or flipped. A first gen Sicillian had grandparents, cousins, siblings, etc back in Italy that could be touched if need be. It wasn't about love or anything.

 

[AnonymityX1000]

Eh, that 'deeper than just crime' stuff is largely nonsense that largely came from the glorification of the mob from the Godfather and Goodfellas and all that. That 'family' stuff is way overblown. Plus a large reason 'made' guys had to be Sicillian was so that the bosses back in Italy could get at their families if they messed up or flipped. A first gen Sicillian had grandparents, cousins, siblings, etc back in Italy that could be touched if need be. It wasn't about love or anything.

So you couldn't get made if you were an orphan? All your peeps are dead already? I doubt it.
Whatever the reason, that's a level Black gangsters haven't gotten to.

 

[FTBS]

Avon himself said 'you be a little slow, a little late'. Stringer moved in silence for years then made 1 (or a few) screwups that got him caught up. That doesn't mean he lacks street smarts. By that logic every nikka on the show lacks street smarts because they all got caught up at some point. If you move in that world something will get you. And Avon questioned him after they'd already been beefing for a while. He was heated. Not only that but String proved with the D stuff that being 'soft' wasn't an issue he had. He overthought stuff and ignored the rules at times but he wasn't soft.

There is a difference between getting caught up because someone snitched or getting killed in a turf war or just getting caught up in general and running around behind your "brother's/partner's" back and eventually snitching on him and getting yourself killed because you were playing games with two of the biggest killers in the streets as a result of course of your running around behind your "brother/partner's" back. There is a reason he was second in command. If Stringer doesn't grow up with Avon he probably never even gets into the game. Avon was straight up built for that street shyt. I never said Stringer was soft. He just didn't have a handle on the street aspect. There are soft street nikkas and nikkas that aren't soft that aren't in the streets.

Avon specifically questioned what work Stringer had put in. Mad or not, that isn't where you go with a nikka that has a thorough resume. It's like saying "where yo' bytches at though" to a nikka you know get bytches. The fact that all he could come up with is ordering a hit ie not actually doing the shyt himself actually supported Avon's point.

 

[FTBS]

Stringer was more intelligent than Avon

Avon was smarter than stringer



People cant have it both ways, Avon wouldnt have been able to legitimise a lot of the drug money as well as Stringer did..... that was Stringers role which he performed well

Stringer made two key errors, the first was getting involved with politicians (from personal knowledge I can tell you they are the grimiest scum of the earth with zero morals)

The second was assuming that he could run it along the same lines as a legit business , he wanted to revolutionise the game, obviously no beef = no violence = no bodies = less police , all the police were concerned about was keeping the murder stats down, problem was you cant be reasonable when dealing with unreasonable people they would just see him as food

when you are making that much money you need a "Stringer" in your organisation ,

problem was he wasnt a street soldier

Its like when Michael Corleone replaced Tom Hagen as consigliere because he wasnt a war counsel

We agree.

 

[Verbal Kint]

So you couldn't get made if you were an orphan? All your peeps are dead already? I doubt it.
Whatever the reason, that's a level Black gangsters haven't gotten to.

I said a large reason, not the only. But I don't know the answer to that. My guess is if the circumstances are right then sure

There is a difference between getting caught up because someone snitched or getting killed in a turf war or just getting caught up in general and running around behind your "brother's/partner's" back and eventually snitching on him and getting yourself killed because you were playing games with two of the biggest killers in the streets as a result of course of your running around behind your "brother/partner's" back. There is a reason he was second in command. If Stringer doesn't grow up with Avon he probably never even gets into the game. Avon was straight up built for that street shyt. I never said Stringer was soft. He just didn't have a handle on the street aspect. There are soft street nikkas and nikkas that aren't soft that aren't in the streets.

Avon specifically questioned what work Stringer had put in. Mad or not, that isn't where you go with a nikka that has a thorough resume. It's like saying "where yo' bytches at though" to a nikka you know get bytches. The fact that all he could come up with is ordering a hit ie not actually doing the shyt himself actually supported Avon's point.

Yea but String had to be high level before even getting to that point. This is like calling an NFL QB objectively garbage cause he's not a good starting quality QB. He's one of the 20 best players in the world at his position but nikkas claim he's trash because he's not good enough to beat NFL defenses. String rose higher than thousands of cats in that city running around on corners and playing stick up kid but you claiming he's wack because he made mistakes. And there's no show evidence showing that he road Avon's coattails. They were ALWAYS portrayed as both being capable and respected. Yea, Avon was the more gully of the two, more in tune with the 'rules' and the G stuff but String was the one keeping the cops off them with moving the money, structuring the organization, etc. Matter fact String was the one in the pits and in the towers while Avon was never anywhere to be seen. More or less he was the face of the organization. How can he not have street smarts? If anything he was the more ruthless one. Ordered Wallace and D dead and both actually snitched at some point. String didn't lack for smarts regarding street stuff and ultimately that's not what got him. It was trying to move away from it with the Prop Joe package that got him caught up. Not the police, not no street nikka stuff. He got too slick, lied to cover it up and made the wrong 2 enemies. 99% of cats out there wouldn't have gotten to that point

 

[Trajan]

Stringer was more intelligent than Avon

Avon was smarter than stringer



People cant have it both ways, Avon wouldnt have been able to legitimise a lot of the drug money as well as Stringer did..... that was Stringers role which he performed well

Stringer made two key errors, the first was getting involved with politicians (from personal knowledge I can tell you they are the grimiest scum of the earth with zero morals)

The second was assuming that he could run it along the same lines as a legit business , he wanted to revolutionise the game, obviously no beef = no violence = no bodies = less police , all the police were concerned about was keeping the murder stats down, problem was you cant be reasonable when dealing with unreasonable people they would just see him as food

when you are making that much money you need a "Stringer" in your organisation ,

problem was he wasnt a street soldier

Its like when Michael Corleone replaced Tom Hagen as consigliere because he wasnt a war counsel

Nice breakdown.

 

[FTBS]

I said a large reason, not the only. But I don't know the answer to that. My guess is if the circumstances are right then sure



Yea but String had to be high level before even getting to that point. This is like calling an NFL QB objectively garbage cause he's not a good starting quality QB. He's one of the 20 best players in the world at his position but nikkas claim he's trash because he's not good enough to beat NFL defenses. String rose higher than thousands of cats in that city running around on corners and playing stick up kid but you claiming he's wack because he made mistakes. And there's no show evidence showing that he road Avon's coattails. They were ALWAYS portrayed as both being capable and respected. Yea, Avon was the more gully of the two, more in tune with the 'rules' and the G stuff but String was the one keeping the cops off them with moving the money, structuring the organization, etc. Matter fact String was the one in the pits and in the towers while Avon was never anywhere to be seen. More or less he was the face of the organization. How can he not have street smarts? If anything he was the more ruthless one. Ordered Wallace and D dead and both actually snitched at some point. String didn't lack for smarts regarding street stuff and ultimately that's not what got him. It was trying to move away from it with the Prop Joe package that got him caught up. Not the police, not no street nikka stuff. He got too slick, lied to cover it up and made the wrong 2 enemies. 99% of cats out there wouldn't have gotten to that point

He got to that level because of Avon. The same way Avon got to the level he got to on the legit side because of Stringer. D'Angelo wasn't no top tier player but he had a position all because of Avon. Stringer was doing all the moving around because of his legit savvy and clean record. He was still taking his cues from Avon. All of Stringer's issues started once he stopped doing that and tried to do his own thing. If he was so respected on a street level why was he sneaking and doing everything all the while paying lip service to his "partner". Why didn't Avon have any problem making whatever moves he wanted to and telling him about it directly while Stringer was sneaking around a like a kid? It's much easier to be ruthless when you are directing other people to do the shyt. He tried to put a hit out on Clay Davis too until Slim Charles was like . My man actually thought he could pop a senator like it was nothing. All them nikkas looking at him like . That's why I said he thought he could jump back and forth at his convenience. He clearly didn't fully understand the street aspect. That wasn't his area. I never said Stringer didn't have value or that he was a complete weakling, I just said the streets wasn't his forte. He was in the game for what...15 years without a scratch? He becomes the man and is a dead snitch within 2 years.