Africans accuse African Americans of "appropriating" their culture (legitimate criticism?)

[Poitier]

The second article says they took that other flute from the Asantehene's court

Traditional horn music in Ghana is called mmenson or mmensoun

This is some flutist from Ghana




For a snippet of horn music in Ghana listen to track 107 on here

Smithsonian Folkways

If you want to read more about Ghanaian horns there's this book:



Some of it you can read through online on that amazon page or in google

Fam, you got that video from the article where it explicitly said 20th century


And what of a single guy blowing on a flute is like a horn section?

 

[Samori Toure]

So oja omoba is American blues

Got it

Now could you explain exactly why

I listened to those songs and didn't see the similarity so maybe an explanation might make it clearer to me

I already told you and even gave you Funk/R&B groups that were close to the version of what was being played. You are probably listening to the singing and since there are language difference and cultural difference you probably think that the music is different. Just like people that listen to Country music think that it is really a different music form than the Blues, but it isn't really; the only difference is that White people are singing it rather than Black people. But the music is unmistakable, because African American Blues covers a lot of different sounds; especially with the guitar and the mixing of other strings, horns and drums.

Like I said the Nigerians at least kept it close to the roots, but you can still hear the American Blues with the pacing. Listen to these cuts by Blues men. They are all different:

 

[Lost1]

Fam, you got that video from the article where it explicitly said 20th century


And what of a single guy blowing on a flute is like a horn section?

It was talking about how that Ghanaian musicologist mentioned in the article was developing pre existing flutes not saying those flutes literally never existed before the 20th century

And did you read through a preview of that book or even listen to that song at that Smithsonian website?. They already had hornplayers who played in groups I don't see why that's even surprising or unbelievable to you

I gotta go to work in like 15 minutes so I can't continue right now but I'll come back later

 

[Lost1]

I already told you and even gave you Funk/R&B groups that were close to the version of what was being played. You are probably listening to the singing and since there are language difference and cultural difference you probably think that the music is different. Just like people that listen to Country music think that it is really a different music form than the Blues, but it isn't really; the only difference is that White people are singing it rather than Black people. But the music is unmistakable, because African American Blues covers a lot of different sounds; especially with the guitar and the mixing of other strings, horns and drums.

Like I said the Nigerians at least kept it close to the roots, but you can still hear the American Blues with the pacing. Listen to these cuts by Blues men. They are all different:

No what I mean is can you explain what exact elements of the song show that it's american blues? This isn't about language . I gotta go right now I'll be back in some hours I look forward to reading your explanation

 

[Poitier]

Dude is resorting to lying.....this shyt is sad

 

[Lost1]

I'm not lying about anything. Maybe you read it differently but the article implies to me that that flute was already existing, but there are better articles on that flute anyway which make it even clearer it was already existing. I just chose one of the first ones I found

Honestly this conversation is kind of amazing and also sad because it means some AAs are so brainwashed they think horns or flutes are alien to traditional west African music even when there are entire books out there on various African musical instruments and their use

Be back later

 

[Poitier]

I'm not lying about anything. Maybe you read it differently but the article implies to me that that flute was already existing, but there are better articles on that flute anyway which make it even clearer it was already existing. I just chose one of the first ones I foundBe back later

sure :ok:

 

[IllmaticDelta]

You can choose. I don't know north African music or east African that well though so I won't speak about that

Read this below and watch the video for a better context of West African music

Like I said in the thread I linked AA culture is largely descended from the Sahelian part of West Africa and not the lower region. Which makes AA culture very unique compared to the rest of the diaspora. That's why people come to this conclusion that AA culture is "white washed" because it doesn't resemble other cultures of the diaspora.

This is why the Blues is unlike any other music in the diaspora. It has more of a connection to "Griot" or "Sahelian" West Africa that the drum dominated or the region which is dominated by asymmetrical timeline patterns.

A comparison between the Upper West African influenced Blues and the lower West/Central African drum based Cuban music

 

[IllmaticDelta]

The parts of Africa that border near the Afro-Asiatics, have Blues-like sounding music because of similar melismatic vocals, pentatonic scales and lack over complex polyrythyms and string based instruments

0->:25



What they say bout Ethiopian music..


"At Friday's event, Gershon lectured on Ethiopian music with demonstrations by Atanaw, Dagnew, Shenkute, and Lebron. Ethiopian music, Gershon explained, is based on four five-note scales (pentatonic). Tezeta is a scale associated with "nostalgia and longing, the equivalent of blues or soul." Anchihoy is employed mainly in wedding songs, and as a jazz musician Gershon said he finds this scale congenial because of its inherent dissonance.

The song the group played to illustrate the scale bati had a propulsive, danceable beat. Shenkute snapped her fingers to it before reaching for the mike and beginning her vocal, which seemed to dive porpoiselike in and out of the instrumental accompaniment, sinking at times almost to inaudibility, then surging upward to a full-throated wail. The fourth scale, ambassel, also fits comfortably with modern jazz harmonies, Gershon said."

http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/2007/10.04/15-mulatu.html

 

[IllmaticDelta]

The second article says they took that other flute from the Asantehene's court

Traditional horn music in Ghana is called mmenson or mmensoun

This is some flutist from Ghana




For a snippet of horn music in Ghana listen to track 107 on here

Smithsonian Folkways

If you want to read more about Ghanaian horns there's this book:



Some of it you can read through online on that amazon page or in google

There are wind instruments in West Africa but they aren't arranged (or used like) Horn sections in the jazz or Funk sense

 

[IllmaticDelta]

Highlife is actually from the Kru people, not Ghanaians. Ghanaians just popularized it. It's a misconception that it originates from there so I can't be certain how much else that article got right or wrong if its just going to repeat common myths in the opening sentence without doing further research,

From what I understand palmwine is from Kru people and the Ghanaians take on it is known as Highlife

but I have no problem with saying highlife had jazz influence, but this isn't the same as pretending that R&b or pop are the source for highlife's style though.

Jazz is a big part of the high life sound

I don't see the blues aspect much either considering how joyous or upbeat sounding so much of highlife is

There is upbeat Blues (blues has many forms) too

 

[IllmaticDelta]

I genuinely don't think oja omoba (as one example) sounds much like delta blues but maybe because they're both using string instruments and singing there might be a few things that sound alike

That song just sounds like a sparse chant type song. Some parts of the vocals reminds me of blues-work song chants. 3rd song is loaded with Jazz influences and the 4th song has R&B'ish/Funk stylings.

 

[Yagirlcheatinonus]

But but but but AA should go back to Africa

 

[Northern Son]

I feel like your experience was limited to the white part of South Africa, you probably didn't hit the townships did you(Where I live)?
Yeah, c00ns are a thing even in S.A, fukk them.. Boerewors isn't traditional to anything but cacs, now Jeqe and bhontshisi or amadombolo, that shyt is the true heart of S.A ..
Remember apartheid was a thing too breh, so the places that you went were predominantly cac because just 20 years ago cacs owned that shyt in it's entirety.

Know what man, as a gesture of kindness if you ever come back down here my doors are open for you to experience South Africa from a black South Africans perspective.

You should've stared those cacs right the fukk back.

I was in Johannesburg, and you're right actually my experience was too limited (no township visit) to say those things. I didn't realize you were SA actually, I was pretty disrespectful looking back at my post, and honestly I apologize for implying c00ning and other terrible things about your people/culture, I was speaking purely as an outsider on a family trip to Africa who just rendezvoused with a few Malawian cousins and family friends.

South Africa had a distinctly different feel from Zambia, Botswana, and Zimbabwe which I visited within the same span of time, but all the extra shyt I said was probably taking it too far (although those cacs really did bother the fukk out of me with that staring shyt, especially this Colonel Sanders looking fakkit who looked at me like I sneezed in his mouth or something ).

Thanks for the invitation breh, if I ever visit again I'll gladly take it.

 

[Lost1]

The parts of Africa that border near the Afro-Asiatics, have Blues-like sounding music because of similar melismatic vocals, pentatonic scales and lack over complex polyrythyms and string based instruments

0->:25



What they say bout Ethiopian music..


"At Friday's event, Gershon lectured on Ethiopian music with demonstrations by Atanaw, Dagnew, Shenkute, and Lebron. Ethiopian music, Gershon explained, is based on four five-note scales (pentatonic). Tezeta is a scale associated with "nostalgia and longing, the equivalent of blues or soul." Anchihoy is employed mainly in wedding songs, and as a jazz musician Gershon said he finds this scale congenial because of its inherent dissonance.

The song the group played to illustrate the scale bati had a propulsive, danceable beat. Shenkute snapped her fingers to it before reaching for the mike and beginning her vocal, which seemed to dive porpoiselike in and out of the instrumental accompaniment, sinking at times almost to inaudibility, then surging upward to a full-throated wail. The fourth scale, ambassel, also fits comfortably with modern jazz harmonies, Gershon said."

http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/2007/10.04/15-mulatu.html

This post and the one above together only answers my question about what you think African music sounded like without alleged American R&B influence for one region and for one other country outside of that region. While I did say you should choose I was hoping you would do so in a way that settles the issue of why you guys keep claiming everything I posted is American blues or R&B based.

The post is mostly just a listing of information and apart from the info on ethiopia this post states that only one region of Africa used banjo-like instruments then links that region's music to American blues music created by African Americans

now this tells us what the roots of AA blues music are likely to be but I still don't see how this answers the other question I asked about why the posters here seemed to think every song I posted is blues or R&B based

I don't doubt that American blues created by African Americans might really be closely tied to griot or sahelian music.though


Also wouldn't surprise me if that researcher quoted in your post suggesting the banjo is not indigenous to Africa is a european or a european descendant because some of them (though there are more objective ones) tend to go out of their way to promote the "negroes can't do anything on their own and borrow everything of even the slightest value that they have" narrative even though European and European based cultures are the biggest borrowers from cultures other than their own (when compared to everyone else on the planet) in all of human history in almost every field of human activity

Since the "drum dominated" stuff is mentioned I'll state for the record that lutes and guitar like instruments had a wide distribution throughout Africa.

Guitar like instruments and lutes were found being used in other parts of Africa outside of the sahelian area in the nineteenth and twentieth century ethnologists and colonists and were seen and heard by people who had visited Africa even before that, well before colonisation. . .this is probably part of why the Harvard Dictionary of Music states that native string instruments are evenly distributed across the African continent

You're relying on sources which basically claim guitar like instruments were not found outside of islamic or sahelian Arica and which claims those which were found in sahelian islamic Africa were fundamentally of southwestern Asian origin

since that article you're using says that southwest Asians gave Egyptians guitar type instruments, and egyptians then gave libyans and north african guitar like instruments and these libyans and north africans gave sudanic Africa guitar type instruments please let me know about these:and when and how something like these were borrowed from libyans:

Collections | National Museum of African Art

This mentions someone named Schweinfurth but there was another German named Wilhelm Junker in the late19th century who took photos of native Zande harps and also native Zande guitars

Am I supposed to believe native Zande guitars followed the Southwest Asia --> Egypt --> Sahara --> Libya --> black Africa model of dissemination claimed by the (probably European or European descended) author whose article you posted?

this is another video of Zande string music



we can argue that some parts of Africa relied more heavily on one kind of instrument than another based on speculation but the whole "forest people rarely used guitar like instruments" stuff is total nonsense

forest peoples in west africa in Sierra Leone, Nigeria, Ghana etc. had lutes.

also lutes were used not only in the forest areas of west africa but in central africa (Gabon, Congo, Angola, Cameroon, etc),

this is a drawing of a native guitar from Angola that was kept in the ethnographic museum in leiden in the netherlands

lutes were even played by central african pygmies:




I can't even blame you guys for swallowing this kind of misinformation about only sahelian islamic west africans having guitar like instruments and lutes or whatever and also the further lie that the guitar like instruments of the sahelian area were borrowed from non-blacks because this is what happens when agenda driven europeans or non-black westerners alone tell a person's story and he fails to tell it himself. Since there is not a competing narrative whatever narrative gets the most press and support or gets put out first no matter how flimsy it is gets accepted. This is just another case of africans failing to tell their own story and being lied against as a result