African American is the tribe but Africa is home

[Critical Distance]

 

[IllmaticDelta]

breh i just posted the video where cholly rock broke it down in clear precise language why the djs in other boroughs were not hip hop, mario and kool D get the props, thats where it stops

I just broke down why like pete dj jones and dj hollywood were hiphop

but you are using an awful and historically inaccurate strategy to make your point, you are trying to take the crown from the bronx, which is equally as silly, hip hop started in the projects of the bronx, period

hiphop culture was a product of various boroughs of NYC, not just the bronx.

First modern rappers came from harlem

i dont think you have a proper definition of hip hop, you are equating hip hop to rap music, which is something that people that are not hip hop do, the only people that have a legit claim that there were before herc is mario and kool dee

hiphop the culture is 4 elements

hiphop the music = funk/disco breaks + rappers

.....the only thing that really seperated disco-funk from what became hiphop was the rapping. If you take the rappers off these songs, you're left with disco/funk

yeah they vouch for mario and kool dee..............and thats about it, nobody outside of the bronx has any legit claim to starting hip hop

well part of that is ignorance such as yours of equating hip hop with rap music, so when they read a sentence saying hip hop started with kool herc in their minds they read 'rap music started with kool herc'

rap music is the real begging of hiphop as a distinct form

any real hip hop head knows rapping came last, in all those videos where old heads from the bronx and black spades members saying they started hip hop, they are not saying they started rap music, they are saying they started the culture of hip hop, it doesnt make any sense to say rap predates the bboy in terms of hip hop culture, thats nonsensical

rapping came last in the Herc scene. rapping was already around in the black overground disco scene. Even dj kool dee had one of these early rapping disco rappers

JQ : Who was the first person that you heard rap ?



PJ : Dj Hollywood .



JQ : Did you ever have any Emcees rhyme for you ?



PJ : Luvbug Starski....he was like a son....I took him off the streets and he worked in my club. Also JJ The Disco King and Kc The Prince Of Soul .

PETE DJ JONES

vocab alert: mixing isnt playing the breakbeat

that's the break but in the context of that time, break beats were just funk/disco not played on the radio

the breakbeat, as kool d described it in the video YOU posted, is when the DJ said fuk the song, we are just playing the snippet and loop it over and over again....and they were doing this so the bboys could get down....thats how hip hop culture started, that is what made it distinct from anything going on any boroughs

the disco dj's did that and that's where herc picked it u from but a crude form...

pete dj jones explains it here

and made kool herc different than other DJs

herc wasn't even doing the merry go round at his early supposed "hiphop jams." that came later....there is a video with dj aj talking about it but got removed from youtube

yeah and? where were the bboys?

they had dancers/dance crews but they weren't called bboys

rap is not hip hop, rap is an element of hip hop culture, people that dont understand that shouldnt even be allowed to post on this board, but i digress

I already touched on this

hmmm no

uh, yes

here is a better overall definition of hip hop

hiphop as a genre of music is because of RAPPERS

no, the breakbeat and the bboy came first in hip hop CULTURE, you are misinformed about hip hop CULTURE

I touched on this already...rapping dj's predate people known as bboys

 

[theworldismine13]

I just broke down why like pete dj jones and dj hollywood were hiphop

breh you are delusional, you didint break anything down, cholly rock broke it down

hiphop culture was a product of various boroughs of NYC, not just the bronx. First modern rappers came from harlem

thats a vague statement because it has no chronology, overtime the other boroughs contributed to hip hop culture, but hip hop started in the bronx, rap music, which is an element of hip hop culture came after

you just pasted a page from a book that clearly states that hip hop started in the south bronx

i guess maybe you are trying to make an argument to other posters, but my point from the beginning is that hip hop started in the bronx with the breakbeat and the bboy, you have posted zero evidence that contradicts that and in fact are posting pages that clearly state that hip hop started in the bronx and then posting other things were people that werent down with hip hop are trying to take credit for it

hiphop the culture is 4 elements

hiphop the music = funk/disco breaks + rappers

.....the only thing that really seperated disco-funk from what became hiphop was the rapping. If you take the rappers off these songs, you're left with disco/funk

and? whats your point? is somebody saying that rap music didint come from disco, soul and funk?

what are you about?

do you even watch the videos? grandmaster caz clearly explains how hip hp came from the breakbeat and the bboy,, and rap came after, thank you for posting this video that proves my point

rap music is the real begging of hiphop as a distinct form

Listen to me Linda

HIP HOP IS NOT MUSIC, HIP HOP IS A CULTURE, RAP IS AN ELEMENT OF HIP HOP!

apparently we are having 2 different convos, you are trying to argue about the origins of rap music, im arguing about the origins of HIP HOP CULTURE

rapping came last in the Herc scene.

"the herc scene" aka the bronx is where the CULTURE of hip hop started

rapping was already around in the black overground disco scene. Even dj kool dee had one of these early rapping disco rappers

now you are contradicting yourself, after i corrected you and i explained that kool herc did have mcs, you made a big spiel and posted random videos to try to show that coke la rock was not a rapper, now all of sudden talking disco mcs are "early rappers"? now you are trying to show that early disco mcs was the beginning of rap? LMAO!!! then how the fuk are you not giving credit to coke la rock for being one of the early rappers................oh cuz then that would give herc props.........oh i see...lol

stop the madness breh

PETE DJ JONES

PETE DJ jones is not hip hop

this is from the link that you posted

the Pete D.J. Jones crowd and the devout followers of Kool D.J. Herc. One group played the popular music of the day for party-going adult audiences in clubs in downtown Manhattan. The other played raw funk and break-beats for a rapidly growing, fanatic – almost cult-like following of teenagers in rec centers and parks. Both sides had their devotees

this sentence clearly explains why pete dj jones is not hip hop

that's the break but in the context of that time, break beats were just funk/disco not played on the radio




the disco dj's did that and that's where herc picked it u from but a crude form...

pete dj jones explains it here

im not sure what you mean by crude but what herc was doing was definitely different, he was spinning specific types of breakbeats for longer periods and doing it specifically for the bboys

herc wasn't even doing the merry go round at his early supposed "hiphop jams." that came later....there is a video with dj aj talking about it but got removed from youtube

and? the point is that herc was the main dj doing it for the bboys

they had dancers/dance crews but they weren't called bboys

exactly, they were not bboys, uprocking is not breakdancing, and the dj flowers and others like him were not djing for the brooklyn uprockers

the bronx is considered the birth of HIP HOP CULTURE because those disparate elements, breakbeat and the bboy and the mc came together, nobody is pulling herc's name out their ass, nobody is putting the bronx on the map for no reason

kool herc was the pied piper of the bboys in the south bronx, he led an "almost cult-like following of teenagers in rec centers and parks" according to your link, it was distinctive from anything going on in the city that is why bronx and herc get the credit and my beloved brooklyn doesnt

I already touched on this

uh, yes



hiphop as a genre of music is because of RAPPERS

I touched on this already...rapping dj's predate people known as bboys

rap is just one element of hip hop FYI

your logic is correct tho, the south bronx and kool herc cannot be give sole credit RAP MUSIC, so if you are saying rap music IS the dominant element and the other elements are secondary and that we can pretty much equate hip hop with rap......then yeah, you are correct, the evidence shows the dj hollywood from harlem should be given some credit for rap, disco mcs should be given credit and other people like the lost poets and radio dj personalities should get credit for it too, soul and funk obviously and james brown is the godfather of rap music and hip hop in general....

but your premise is wrong and your vocabulary is not accepted by most writers and hip hop heads, imo your premise is BS

rap music does not equal hip hop, its just an element, when people say hip hop started in the south bronx with kool herc they are not referring to rap music, they are referring to hip hop culture, i thought that was understood since this is supposedly a hip hop message board, but apparently not

i guess we have to agree to disagree or we will be here forever

 

[get these nets]

Y'all are doing too much with the multi video threads. I have images, avis, and smilies turned off and it still takes a while to load these pages.

I've heard too many old school pioneers....,djs, graff artists, dancers, and people who became rappers who were just kids growing up witnessing the scene mention Herc, Bam, and Flash over the years for me to not believe them .

Not borough bias either as many of these figures interviewed over the years weren't from the Bronx , but the majority of them point to the Bronx. In fact, the names shouted out in "Going Way Back" song/video ring bells in all of the old school stories about origins of hip hop.And Just Ice is originally from Ft.Greene,BK.
Glad that most of the pioneers are still alive and have a platform to tell their stories.

Once hiphop blew up, and people were no longer afraid of associating with it, I've seen scholars and historians point to many sources for the origins of rap.
-I've heard late comedian Nipsey Russell say that he was the first rapper...because of his stage style
-Last Poets, Gil Scott Heron.....obviously
-Ali saying his rhymes(Bundini as the first hype man)
-Hustlers Convention album from 1973

and then you had the counterparts to these influences from the English speaking Caribbean countries
-toasting in JA
-Mighty Sparrow's style of calypso (Trinidad)
-etc

I think all the djs mentioned in this thread, and all the elements listed in this thread contributed to the culture that became hip hop. If you're going to draw a line in the sand for when this became a distinct separate scene...majority of the people who were there are saying the Bronx.

 

[K.O.N.Y]

herc has a southern tinged west indian accent just like haitian jack




aframs in NY have upper south tinged, NY accents

dude is way off on this

Herc has the same "old head" southern accents you hear from older afram new yorkers

the lady that lives next door to me is a good example of this. Shes a great migrationer

 

[K.O.N.Y]

i think where people get it messed up

Is by making it about boroughs. It was never about boroughs

It was always the Disco dj vs the new up incoming hip hop dj

there were early bronx disco djs saying the same thing as the brooklyn and queens djs. In respect to early hip hop

 

[IllmaticDelta]

breh you are delusional, you didint break anything down, cholly rock broke it down

thats a vague statement because it has no chronology, overtime the other boroughs contributed to hip hop culture, but hip hop started in the bronx, rap music, which is an element of hip hop culture came after



you just pasted a page from a book that clearly states that hip hop started in the south bronx

the 4 element culture identified as hiphop started in the bronx. the actual individual parts were everywhere before they were tied together

graf= philly--->manhattan
rappers= harlem

and? whats your point? is somebody saying that rap music didint come from disco, soul and funk?

my point is that it was the rapping that made hiphop a distinct style from disco

what are you about?

do you even watch the videos? grandmaster caz clearly explains how hip hp came from the breakbeat and the bboy,, and rap came after, thank you for posting this video that proves my point

he's talking about in the herc scene not in general. he clearly says rapping came from dj hollywood who predates herc

Listen to me Linda

HIP HOP IS NOT MUSIC, HIP HOP IS A CULTURE, RAP IS AN ELEMENT OF HIP HOP!

apparently we are having 2 different convos, you are trying to argue about the origins of rap music, im arguing about the origins of HIP HOP CULTURE

when people say hiphop came from jamaica they're talking about the rapping aspect not bboys or graf because we know the first thing they do is try to claim HIPHOP came from jamaican toasting

"the herc scene" aka the bronx is where the CULTURE of hip hop started

false. see disco king mario/kool dee/dj smoke & smoketrons etc..

now you are contradicting yourself, after i corrected you and i explained that kool herc did have mcs, you made a big spiel and posted random videos to try to show that coke la rock was not a rapper, now all of sudden talking disco mcs are "early rappers"?

I didn't contradict myself. herc had freelance talking mcs, meaning not to the beat. Disco Dj's had syncopated to the beat mc's which = rapping. Flash, Caz, raheim and numerous other people from that time acknowledge this

now you are trying to show that early disco mcs was the beginning of rap?

yes,disco rap was the first style of rappers


Disco Rap - Music Genres - Rate Your Music

LMAO!!! then how the fuk are you not giving credit to coke la rock for being one of the early rappers................oh cuz then that would give herc props.........oh i see...lol

stop the madness breh

coke la rock didn't syncopate to the beat! he just talked. What don't you understand about that?
Read below.....



" Rather than riding the beat with a constant flow of syncopated syllables as rappers have since the late 70s, Jamaica’s DJs of the 60s and early 70s and hip-hop’s earliest DJs/MCs would pepper songs with short phrases, often in the form of rhyming couplets, employing the latest slang (including scat-filled routines), and often in a relatively free manner — i.e., without relating too directly to the rhythm of the track playing on the turntable (but frequently connecting to the track’s theme or to specific lyrics or connotations the song may have)."

wayneandwax.com » Kool Herc: A Biographical Essay

A bit more on the differences between the Disco Dj's and the Herc scenes and how they impacted the formation of HipHop

From the article below:

"In contrast to Herc's pulled-ups and needle drops, disco dj's favored smooth segues from track to track. They also tended to rap in a more mellifluous style, relating directly, if casually, to the steady beats of the music they were playing, and stringing together long verse like presentations of their own set of stock phrases rather than the freer, more fragmented interjections of the Herculords and their streetwise colleagues. The next generation of hiphop Dj's and Mc's would synthesize these distinct strands, refining (if not outright commercializing) "street" style while bringing in a harder edge to the smooth surfaces of club rap and disco djing."

people from the herc scene even confirm this

Quote from Scorpio one of the founding members to the group, Grandmaster Flash and the Furious 5

JQ : Furious was one of the original groups outside of the Herculords right ?

SC : With the Herculords - Timmy Tim & Coke La Rock they never rhymed ; they just said lil phrases like "yes yall youre now listening to the sounds of Kool Herc and the Herculords" . But we were the first group in the Bronx to do full rhymes to the beat . If we own any patent ,its that rhymin' to the beat

SCORPIO


Quote from Kevie Kev the captain of the L- Brothers, Leader of the Fantastic Four and Five M.C.s and a member once of the Furious Five M.C.s. This interview is very telling because it explains why what he call "rappers" today were called "emcees" in the Herc Bronx scene.

Q -The first m.c. you heard on the mic was one of Herc’s boy’s?



A -No, no, they wasn’t really m.c.ing, they just use to talk on the mic. The first m.c.’s I saw was Creole and Mele Mel.



Q- So what about Coke La Rock, did he also just talk on the mic?



A - Yeah he used to talk on the mic, little slurs or what ever, but he was like the strong arm to Herc’s crew. He was like the voice unheard, you know what I am saying, the low. That’s my man.



Q - As far as an m.c., did he get down like ya’ll did, because I have a lot of people that ask me about Coke La Rock?



A - No, it’s different, it was totally different. If we used to try to rhyme, he used to just talk.



(interviewer) Right.



A -Like a real m.c., a master of ceremony.

PETE DJ jones is not hip hop

this is from the link that you posted

pete dj jones was hiphop but he also came from the disco scene first

DJ Eddie Cheeba & DJ Hollywood-The Disco Side of Hip Hop

exactly, they were not bboys, uprocking is not breakdancing,

yes it is actually, that's excatly what they earliest bboys were doing

and the dj flowers and others like him were not djing for the brooklyn uprockers

The first glaring inaccuracy is Flowers provided the Sound System for the Wednesday night parties at Panorama which was actually located on in Brooklyn on Waverly Place between Fulton Street and Atlantic Avenue. Before there were Bboyz "The City Steppers" led by Michael Dungee were creating that particular style of dancing. They shared numerous venues with Flowers.

Brooklyn Music: BrooklynBio: The Mystery of Grandmaster Flowers

the bronx is considered the birth of HIP HOP CULTURE because those disparate elements, breakbeat and the bboy and the mc came together,

true but the singular parts were not all from the bronx

nobody is pulling herc's name out their ass, nobody is putting the bronx on the map for no reason

kool herc was the pied piper of the bboys in the south bronx, he led an "almost cult-like following of teenagers in rec centers and parks" according to your link, it was distinctive from anything going on in the city that is why bronx and herc get the credit and my beloved brooklyn doesnt

rap is just one element of hip hop FYI

the biggest element

your logic is correct tho, the south bronx and kool herc cannot be give sole credit RAP MUSIC, so if you are saying rap music IS the dominant element and the other elements are secondary and that we can pretty much equate hip hop with rap......then yeah, you are correct, the evidence shows the dj hollywood from harlem should be given some credit for rap, disco mcs should be given credit and other people like the lost poets and radio dj personalities should get credit for it too, soul and funk obviously and james brown is the godfather of rap music and hip hop in general....

but your premise is wrong and your vocabulary is not accepted by most writers and hip hop heads, imo your premise is BS

most writer have been peddling wrong hiphop history since the 80's but now that's about to change

rap music does not equal hip hop, its just an element, when people say hip hop started in the south bronx with kool herc they are not referring to rap music, they are referring to hip hop culture, i thought that was understood since this is supposedly a hip hop message board, but apparently not

they are mainly talking about rap music which is why as soon as they try to link hiphop with jamaica, they bring up toasting.

i guess we have to agree to disagree or we will be here forever

 

[theworldismine13]

the 4 element culture identified as hiphop started in the bronx. the actual individual parts were everywhere before they were tied together

graf= philly--->manhattan
rappers= harlem

thats strawman argument, when people say hip hop started in the bronx, nobody is suggesting there was in immaculate conception, they say that because that is where the breakbeat and the bboying came together

my point is that it was the rapping that made hiphop a distinct style from disco

but again, who is saying the opposite of that

he's talking about in the herc scene not in general. he clearly says rapping came from dj hollywood who predates herc

the notion of the "herc scene" as something seperate from hip hop is something that you are pulling out your ass, the "herc scene" is the beginning of hip hop culture

when people say hiphop came from jamaica they're talking about the rapping aspect not bboys or graf because we know the first thing they do is try to claim HIPHOP came from jamaican toasting

again, that comes from the same ignorance that you are pushing, hip hop is not rap music, hip hop started with the breakbeat and the bboy, thats why the caribbean origin theory is bullshyt

false. see disco king mario/kool dee/dj smoke & smoketrons etc..

they were all from the bronx, so if you replace herc's name with theirs, it still stands that hip hop started in the bronx and hip hop did not start with rap music, it still stands that hip hop stared in the "disco king mario/kool dee/dj smoke & smoketrons" scene

I didn't contradict myself. herc had freelance talking mcs, meaning not to the beat. Disco Dj's had syncopated to the beat mc's which = rapping. Flash, Caz, raheim and numerous other people from that time acknowledge this

but you cant use kool dj d as an example, kool dj d is equivalent to kool herc, the disco Dj kool dj d was referring to jj the disco king was just an announcer like coke la rock

DJ Eddie Cheeba & DJ Hollywood-The Disco Side of Hip Hop

On that side of the family tree we have Pete DJ Jones who was the first real disco street deejay with emcee’s JJ Disco the King, KC the Prince of Soul and JT Hollywood – these guys were just announcers…

so you used a bad example

yes,disco rap was the first style of rappers


Disco Rap - Music Genres - Rate Your Music

these are late 70 early 80 songs, what do they have to do with the origination of hip hop? who is disputing that early rap music used disco beats?

coke la rock didn't syncopate to the beat! he just talked. What don't you understand about that?

i do understand that, i never said he did, he was an mc, in hip hop the mc turned into rap music

but rap music came after the breakbeat and the bboy, so coke la rock syncopating or not is neither here nor there

Read below.....



" Rather than riding the beat with a constant flow of syncopated syllables as rappers have since the late 70s, Jamaica’s DJs of the 60s and early 70s and hip-hop’s earliest DJs/MCs would pepper songs with short phrases, often in the form of rhyming couplets, employing the latest slang (including scat-filled routines), and often in a relatively free manner — i.e., without relating too directly to the rhythm of the track playing on the turntable (but frequently connecting to the track’s theme or to specific lyrics or connotations the song may have)."

wayneandwax.com » Kool Herc: A Biographical Essay

A bit more on the differences between the Disco Dj's and the Herc scenes and how they impacted the formation of HipHop

From the article below:

"In contrast to Herc's pulled-ups and needle drops, disco dj's favored smooth segues from track to track. They also tended to rap in a more mellifluous style, relating directly, if casually, to the steady beats of the music they were playing, and stringing together long verse like presentations of their own set of stock phrases rather than the freer, more fragmented interjections of the Herculords and their streetwise colleagues. The next generation of hiphop Dj's and Mc's would synthesize these distinct strands, refining (if not outright commercializing) "street" style while bringing in a harder edge to the smooth surfaces of club rap and disco djing."

people from the herc scene even confirm this

Quote from Scorpio one of the founding members to the group, Grandmaster Flash and the Furious 5




SCORPIO


Quote from Kevie Kev the captain of the L- Brothers, Leader of the Fantastic Four and Five M.C.s and a member once of the Furious Five M.C.s. This interview is very telling because it explains why what he call "rappers" today were called "emcees" in the Herc Bronx scene.






pete dj jones was hiphop but he also came from the disco scene first

DJ Eddie Cheeba & DJ Hollywood-The Disco Side of Hip Hop

and thats fine, rap music did not originate with kool herc and the south bronx, its an element of hip hop that came along after

yes it is actually, that's excatly what they earliest bboys were doing

again, who was their DJ?

Brooklyn Music: BrooklynBio: The Mystery of Grandmaster Flowers

that is not a reliable link

true but the singular parts were not all from the bronx

again, mario and kool d gets the props, mike is making the argument that hip hop started in the bronx and that mario came before herc, which is accurate, he is not cosigning anything you are saying

"herc's scene" a phrase that you are using in derisive manner is the same scene mike is referring to as being the beginning of hip hop culture

the biggest element

its the most commercialized element and is why people try so hard to claim it, its also easier and simpler to exploit hip hop when you make it just music

but hip hop culture becomes a more positive and powerful force in the poor inner city projects where it was created when its presented as elements, thats why real hip hop heads dont get down with the rap music = hip hop notion, real hip hop heads know its "deeper than rap"

and also rap music owes its survival to the hip hop element philosophy, thats why rap didnt become a fad like disco

most writer have been peddling wrong hiphop history since the 80's but now that's about to change

why do you keep posting these vids? mario and black spades deserve their props, that is true, but these props as being the originators of hip hop are based on the notion of hip hop not being just rap music

your philosophy that hip hop = rap music is shytting on mario and the black spades

only under the premise that hip hop is bigger than rap does it make sense to give mario and the black spades their props

they are mainly talking about rap music which is why as soon as they try to link hiphop with jamaica, they bring up toasting.

thats your own problem, stop telling people hip hop = rap, problem solved


[/QUOTE]

 

[IVS]

Naw. Home is where the tribe wants to organize and build for itself. And our tribe is here in America so America is home as far as I am concerned.

You can love Africa all you want but not improving QoL for nukkas over here. The African countries have their own sons and daughters all over the world that should be working improve Africa. We got our own folks over here without access to running water, and living with sewage in the "yards" and not having access to quality health care and education.

That not to say we should not collaborate or comdcut some sort of world Congress a la the Zionists. But the propaganda, agenda, and ideology must be set for that.

 

[theworldismine13]

Y'all are doing too much with the multi video threads. I have images, avis, and smilies turned off and it still takes a while to load these pages.

its worth it, this discussion is a very good thread derailment, even though hes wrong about a lot of things @IllmaticDelta dropped a lot of good info, people should take the time to read and see it all

 

[IllmaticDelta]

again, who was their DJ?


that is not a reliable link

dude, early hiphop dance/bboys crews predate herc by his own admission! They just weren't called bboys

Herc:

When did you start to get involved in it?

I started to get involved in it right after my house got burned down. I was going to parties back then, see. A place called the Tunnel and a place called the Puzzle, right on 161st Street – that was the first disco I used to party at. Me, guys like Phase 2, Stay High, Sweet Duke, Lionel 163 – all the early graffiti writers – used to come through there. It’s where we used to meet up and party at.

Then, years later, [there was this club] called Disco Fever. Disco Fever used to be right here on 167th. But before Disco Fever there was the Puzzle. That was the first Bronx disco.


So back then you still weren’t playing?

I was dancing, I was partying. Right around 1970, I’m in high school.

That was when b-boying was starting?


Yeah, people were dancing, but they weren’t calling it b-boying. That was just the break, and people would go off. My terms came in after I started to play – I called them b-boys. Guys just used to breakdance… Right then, slang was in, and we shortened words down. Instead of disrespect, you know, you dissed me. That’s where that came from.

Red Bull Music Academy Daily

to add to that, kurtis blow says he bboying and hiphop was around in 71 before herc's parties in 73

What do you consider the anniversary of Hip-Hop?

Kurtis Blow: Hip-Hop, to me, started around 1971, 1972. When I was thirteen years old, I gave my first party as a DJ at my good friend - Tony Rome's - 13th birthday party. I put two component sets together (back in the day, a component set was a TV, a radio, an 8 track player and a record player). So I took my mom’s component set and I took it to his house where his mom had a component set. We put both of them together and we had continuous music... and it was awesome. Awesome party. That was way before I knew that there were 2 turntables, and mixing, and continuous music that way. But in '72 I had this idea - We’re going to do this thing nonstop where we wouldn’t have to talk in-between the records and we could just make it happen. And so that was that was the first time I actually DJ'd. I was also was a B-Boy in 1972. But no disrespect to Kool Herc. If we want to claim that the start of Hip-Hop is 1973, I’ll go with it. And big ups to Kool Herc and that very first party, that back to school jam he gave with his sister Cindy back in 1973.

http://www.pbs.org/black-culture/explore/hip-hop/40th-anniversary/kurtis-blow/#.W1jac00nb1I

now an OG bboy that grew up with herc as teens, his thoughts on bboying

Trixie:

NORIN RAD: "So you were there at his first parties in that recreation room at 1520 Sedgwick Avenue?"

TRIXIE:"Yes, we were the ones that started Kool Herc!"

NORIN RAD:"So I guess you also knew Herc's CINDY?"

TRIXIE:"I know Cindy, I know his mother, his father, I know his fam! But I was there on the Westside of the Bronx before all of them. We all grew up together.. me and Herc met when we were teenagers and most of us were graduating going to high school. We played basketball together all the time, we did a lot of things together. We went to the same schools! We went from house party to houseparty....stuff like that! One day Herc invited us to his parties and we was all thinking about it..either we wasn't gonna go or we was gonna go because it is cold down the valley. The valley was Sedgewick Ave..Sedgewick is coooooold at the winter time and you gotta go down these stairs and all this junk. Man!!! But.... winter started and we'd go to his party and it was 50 cent...yeah, it was 50 cent."


NORIN RAD: "When did you start breaking and who inspired you to start breaking?"

TRIXIE: "I'm gonna say it like this....Did nobody inspire me to start breaking 'cause I already knew how to dance. I started breakdancing in 1971, then 72,73...yeah, and I stopped dancing in 1974/75. When we did go to Herc's parties that's when I took it to another level. All my friends could tell you I already knew how to dance so it wasn't like I didn't know how to dance. Nobody did..I put it to you like this. My Mother was a dancer so I gotta say my mother kind of inspired me to dance."

NORIN RAD: "Is it true that breaking at that time was done mainly on top?"

TRIXIE:"Yeah,you would get into the move of it, you know?! Then once you see an opening then you come down to the ground and do your rolls, your spins, all of that....but you see there is a timing for that. A lot of people the way they are breaking right now all they do is the floormoves, they are not actually dancing. No! We didn't do it like that.You danced first then you break ..."Oh Boy, you now break Boy!" Then you come back up and you dance again.It was a dance. That's what it was. It was dance breaking."

Norin Rad:"And back then B-Boys used to dance to the whole song, right? Not just the break part?"

TRIXIE: "Yeah, yeah, yeah!!! From beginning to end! Whoever gets tired or whatever (against you)...you're the winner. Back in my time I could dance a whole album. A whole album by myself!"

NORIN RAD:"Over here many B-Boys have this misconception that back then it was all about breakbeats all night BUT Kool Herc did not only play beats for the B-Boys to get down to but also Hustle joints and slow joints, right?"

TRIXIE:" Yeah we used to do slow dancing.Listen, Breakdancing started a lot of stuff. The Hustle is a Latin dance but we turned it into a Soul Dance. To mingle with the other half, the girls, we had to dance slow. But if you were breakdancing she was not gonna dance with you. Most girls couldn't breakdance. So you had to mix it all up! For me as a dancer I had to do all of those. Not just breakdancing I had to dance to every type of song..so I could get a date. You had to know how to mingle, how to talk to a girl, how to do the hustle.... or you could dance regular 'cause we used to do dance regular, too. So if you danced regular you could make her smile and move her body. All that plays into breakdancing."

NORIN RAD: "Which songs would you get you down to when you were at Kool Herc's parties?"

TRIXIE: "James Brown! The Ohio Players, Earth, Wind & Fire..oh man, I could dance to all of the songs he played but really James Brown! If you danced against me and it was a contest....'cause I used to do contests, too. That's how you make a few dollars, or win a prize or get a trophy or whatever. James Brown!!!! Sheesh...It was on!!! Put James Brown on and I could dance to a whole album. Sex Machine, Give It Up or Turn It Lose..I could dance to all of his songs, all of his fast songs. But I gotta say in my mind I was not a B-Boy at that time! I WAS NOT a B-Boy when I was breakdancing. Kool Herc did come up with that after I had stopped dancing.So I wasn't no B-Boy I was just Trixie. All the other guys he made them, you know, B-Boys and Herculoids. I wasn't around when he did that though. Nah, I wasn't with that. We gonna straighten that out right now! But now B-Boy that's what it is."

NORIN RAD: "Ok just so that I understand you properly...the term of a B-Boy was something that Kool Herc came up with but you were alreay breaking before that and did not consider yourself to be a B-Boy?"

TRIXIE:"Right! No, I was just Trixie. They didn't call me Trixie the B-Boy. It was Trixie, Trixie, Trixie!! That's what I want everybody to understand."

Castles In The Sky: INTERVIEW WITH THE ORIGINAL B-BOY TRIXIE

 

[IllmaticDelta]

@theworldismine13


Remember, I mentioned that dj smoke had bboys and he was around the same time as herc?

“Herc had the recognition, he was the big name in the Bronx back then”, explains AJ. “Back then the guys with the big names were: Kool D, Disco King Mario, Smokey and the Smoke-a-trons, Pete DJ Jones, Grandmaster Flowers and Kool Herc. Not even Bambaataa had a big name at that time, you know what I’m sayin?”

Ill-literature with Skillz to Blaze: One Night At the Executive Playhouse

^^the ones I bolded in blue are all before herc. Dj Smoke is from the same time and area as herc. More on him and his dance crew

.
.
he appears to be before herc and people from the herc scene rocked says he was doing hiphop before they heard of herc!

melle mel mentions him as the first person he saw doing hiphop in the west bronx




now, here goes an OG bboy who was part of herc's team who said he was bboying way before he heard of herc and was down with dj dmoke first!

Clark Kent:

NORIN RAD:"What was your relationship with the legendary (N***er) Twins?"

CLARK KENT:"Well, we met when we were 8 years old and we did everything together in the beginning of hiphop. If you saw me, you saw the Twins...if you saw the Twins, you saw me..our names were cemented together, okay?! There's nothing that they were involved in that I wasn't there for and there is nothing that I was involved in that they wasn't there for. We were like triplets. Wherever you seen one you seen all three of us when it came to movin' around in Hiphop. We used to travel down to Chuck Center which is one of the places we really honed our skills at before finding out about Kool Herc and going to Kool Herc's parties. We would go to Chuck Center like every other week 'cause they had a dance contest and we used to love winning that dance contest."

NORIN RAD:"That's some precious knowledge!!! Chuck Center was located in East Harlem, right?"

CLARK KENT: "Yes on 115th Street & 2nd Avenue."

NORIN RAD: "So you were basically breaking at Chuck Center BEFORE you met Kool Herc?"

CLARK KENT:"Before I even met Kool Herc! That's where The (N***er) Twins and I honed our skills and we would go down there with cats like Wallace Dee and Chip. These are guys from the era of like Trixie and them. We ran with a whole host of cats down there before we found out what Herc was doing what he was doing on the Westside (of the Bronx).One of the names I wanna mention though is Dancing Doug!!!Back then Chuck Center was one of the places where we encountered Dancing Doug! The premier place to do breaking became Kool Herc's parties but prior to Kool Herc's we used to go to (DJ) Smokey's parties, you know, the Twins and I. From Smokey's we caught on to Chuck Center and then from Chuck Center we caught on to what Herc was doing. And out of all the places we went, you know, we honed our skills! A lot of people have this misconception that we got our skills at Kool Herc's...by the time the Twins and I arrived at Kool Herc's we was already elite!!!! And that's why we quickly ran through whoever thought they was somebody at Kool Herc's at that time. It was only a matter of time before you got on our nerves and you kept running your mouth.. and we waited untiltil you were dancing in your little circle and I would jumped into your circle and make short work of you. That's how we got down at Kool Herc's parties. Like a lot of our stuff was never premeditated. I have heard when you interviewed other people and they said,"Well, guys come in and say I wanna battle you!"That wasn't my and the Twins experience! We took on people without them knowing we was coming. By the time we jumped your circle if you thought you was somebody it's too late to run.... You're trapped now!"

NORIN RAD: "Damn! I have to gather myself!!! That's some heavy knowledge!! So there were Harlem B-Boys trying to bring it to you in 1973 at Chuck Center?"

CLARK KENT:"And we would eat'em like lunch."

Castles In The Sky

.
.
now the man himself, Dj Smokey

NORIN RAD:"What made you pick up that name Smokey?"

DJ SMOKEY:"I was running track in Taft High School and I could run really fast. When I ran the dust would be kicking up from my sneakers. They would say, "What do we got here? You're smoking!" "Hey, Smokey!" See! So the name kept sticking. I kept the nickname when I was DJing..it said DJ Smokey! That's how the name came about..DJ Smokey! As time went on I dropped the Y and it was DJ Smoke. People just kept calling me DJ Smokey. Flash and them would call me DJ Smokey. Kool Herc called me DJ Smokey."


NORIN RAD: "When did you form your dance crew? The Smoke-A-Trons? Was that around 1974/75?"

DJ SMOKEY: "No. That was around 1972."

NORIN RAD: "From your recollection how did Breaking as a dance come about? What are its roots?"

DJ SMOKEY: " Okay, in 1969 the dance at these 25 Cent parties in the basements and in the clubs started to change, it was more of a expression vibe. Like this song that came out in 1970 "Express Yourself!" You see it was more of a rush dance, a anger dance. "Say It Loud I'm Black And I'm Proud" ..they were like "Ahhhh, I'm angry!" A anger dance!! Like "I'm tired of all this shyt....who you're calling ******?" and it was also like "I'm from this block you're from that block!" You know what I'm saying? Two guys would go at each other....


NORIN RAD: "Now as for that name Smoke-A-Trons how did that come about?

DJ SMOKEY: "The Smoke-A-Trons were my dancers, the ones that I picked.Sister Boo, Johnny Kool, James Bond, Crazy Eddie, the Yellow Banana....all my dancers...when people would come to our block and think that they could dance my dancers would smoke the hell out of them. That's why I called them The Smoke-A-Trons."

NORIN RAD:"Where was Sister Boo from? The 9?"

DJ SMOKEY: " No, she wasn't from the 9. I think she was from Jerome Avenue. She was real good and beautiful. I'll send you some pictures of her. She is dead now, she died from AIDS. The Yellow Banana is still around. Her real name is Vivien. She used to go to Kool Hercs parties, too."

NORIN RAD: "So the Smoke-A-Tron B-Boys and B-Girls were Sista Boo, Johnny Kool, James Bond, Crazy Eddie.."

DJ SMOKEY:"Yes, but I had more. there were bout 20 of them."

NORIN RAD: "Could you name them please?"

DJ SMOKEY: "El Dorado Mike."

NORIN RAD: "El Dorado Mike was down with you, too? I have heard a lot about him...."

DJ SMOKEY: "Yeah, he was one my B-Boys. The ****** Twins would come to my parties, too. You can ask them about me, you can ask them about DJ Smokey...Then I had Bo Bo, he was from the 9. Here's another one: The Calgonite Kid. He was so dirty that they called him the Calgonite Kid. Then there was Barbara, Beavey, Born, Knowledge...They are in heaven now."

NORIN RAD: "What about Ron, Sleepy and Kaseem? I heard Pow Wow from the Zulu Kings mention them as great B-Boys."'

DJ SMOKEY: "Yes, yes they were all Smoke-A-Trons. Sleepy was very good."

NORIN RAD:"What were your stomping grounds in terms of indoor as well as outdoor party spots around the early to mid 1970 when The Smoke-A-Trons were with you?"

DJ SMOKEY:"The Cave! '74! It was on Webster Avenue....in the Webster Avenue Projects. It was on Webster Avenue & 167th street. We called it The Cave."

NORIN RAD:"Damn! Melle Mel mentioned that the first B-Boy party he ever witnessed took place at The Cave with you playing the music....Was that a club?"

DJ SMOKEY:"It was a community center. One of the buildings had a big community center and it was in that center!"

NORIN RAD:"I heard that you were also giving parties at a spot called Over The Dover (I read that in an interview with Pow Wow from the Zulu Kings / Soul Sonic Force)....What kind of spot was that?"

DJ SMOKEY: "Okay, The Dover was a movie theatre that was closed. On the top of The Dover was a club that Lucky got for us. We called it Over The Dover.....it was kinda raggedy so we started working on it.....we had to build it up and clean it. The more we built it up the more people came and before we got the amps stolen from us we had it packed on the regular. At first it was 100 people, then it was 200 people.....then 1000.....we started to make so much money out of it. The Smoke-A-Trons and Luke- A-Trons were there....but then unfortunately we got robbed....."

NORIN RAD:" From what I've heard you also used to do parties at your apartment on Grant Avenue where B-Boys got down at heavily..."

DJ SMOKEY:" Yes!! All day long!!! All day long!!! My apartment was on 169th street & Grant Avenue...5D!!! On the fifth floor....We played music 24/7 !! That's where my Smoke-A-Trons..they would come in there daily, hang out and dance. We would also do block parties on Grant Avenue in the summer time."

DJ SMOKEY: "Yeah..when other people came from different neighbourhoods they had to come through them....dancing. They (the other B-Boys & B-Girls) would lose a lot of times! Sometimes they would win...but most of the times they lost. 155th Street Crew...they lost. The Polo Grounds Crew lost....University Avenue Crew they lost. They would get their ass handed to them because the Smoke-A-Trons was bad!! James Bond, Bobo and them was bad. They knew their style! Eldorado Mike? Come on...But there were a lot of good dancers back then... Ni**er Twins! They were bad! Kool Herc's team was bad, too! Clark Kent!!! They were good, I'm not lying. Flash's dance team was bad..Melle Mel and them could dance....they would all dance before they got into their shyt (starting with MCing)."




NORIN RAD:"How deep was your breakbeat arsenal at your peak in '76 and '77? Were you known for having rare beats?"

DJ SMOKEY:"Yes, I had some very rare beats. I had four crates..beats, just beats in it....two crates with other music. So I had like six crates...."

NORIN RAD:"Nowadays the younger DJs are not really familiar with what it took back then to become a DJ....Like building up a Soundsystem, buying two copies of the same record to extend the break..."

DJ SMOKEY:"I had six copies! Sometimes when we played outside...the records...the sun would warp them or they would get scratched up by the way that we was playing them and I used to have pennies and dimes on my needles and so sometimes the needle would break......we would cut the records so much that the grooves would get messed up....sometimes even the headphones would get messed up...So I had multiple copies of each record. "

NORIN RAD:"Where would you buy your records at?"

DJ SMOKEY:"There was a spot called Downstairs Music, Crazy Eddie....I would go as far as Brooklyn to get the records I needed....."

NORIN RAD:"What were your five favourite breakbeats?"

DJ SMOKEY:""It's Just Begun", "Apache", "Bongo Rock", "Open Sesame" by Kool & The Gang...there was version that had a nice beat on it.....sings, "Groove With The Jeannie"

NORIN RAD:"Who were your DJ partners back then? That ran with your crew?"

DJ SMOKEY:"Jerry D! Rob The Gold! There were also a lot of other DJs that played with me like Flash, Lovebug Starski and Mean Gene (from the legendary L-Brothers)."


DJ Rob The Gold (The Master Plan Bunch)

DJ Jerry Dee (The Master Plan Bunch)





NORIN RAD: "I don't mean to upset you but what was your relationship with Kool DJ Herc back then in the early to mid 1970ies?"

DJ SMOKEY: "I was his nemesis!"

NORIN RAD: "Ok, so you were rivals! Did you ever go against each other in a battle with your soundsystems?"

DJ SMOKEY: "Yes, we did . He definetely had the equipment but skillwise I was much better than him and I'm still better today. He did something very slick to me at the PAL back then. He had invited me there to do a battle of the DJs and he had all his equipment there, massive equipment, you know what I'm saying? Half an hour before the PAL closed I finally got on using some of my equipment but I only had two speakers with me, two Peavey columns. So I tried to tear his ass up with what I had. I was waiting for Grandmaster Flash to bring the rest of my equipment but by the time he got there the PAL already closed. So Herc basically drowned me out because he had all his speakers there. Everybody said he won, he did not win..."

Castles In The Sky

and this from jdl or melle mel on smokey (don't have the book)

 

[get these nets]

its worth it, this discussion is a very good thread derailment, even though hes wrong about a lot of things @IllmaticDelta dropped a lot of good info, people should take the time to read and see it all

Thread took a great turn and this is a very informative debate going on between you two. I love that you're both using ACTUAL speaking footage of the pioneers. Just too much information being posted. Too many videos. Pages take forever to load and it's impossible to get through all this information.

I need to see a Cholly Rock/Green Eye Genie face to face debate...ASAP

 

[theworldismine13]

@theworldismine13


Remember, I mentioned that dj smoke had bboys and he was around the same time as herc?




Ill-literature with Skillz to Blaze: One Night At the Executive Playhouse

^^the ones I bolded in blue are all before herc. Dj Smoke is from the same time and area as herc. More on him and his dance crew

.
.
he appears to be before herc and people from the herc scene rocked says he was doing hiphop before they heard of herc!

melle mel mentions him as the first person he saw doing hiphop in the west bronx




now, here goes an OG bboy who was part of herc's team who said he was bboying way before he heard of herc and was down with dj dmoke first!

Clark Kent:



Castles In The Sky

.
.
now the man himself, Dj Smokey



Castles In The Sky

and this from jdl or melle mel on smokey (don't have the book)

but herc mentions smoky in the interview

Was anybody else doing anything similar?

No. There were guys trying to battle me, but I wasn’t fukking with them. There was a guy called Smoky. He was coming up, he was on Webster Avenue, had a group called the Masterplan Bunch. Flash was in the cuts. He was making noise and shyt. I had no competition.

in the furious five interview they say there was like 9 or 10 people in the party, yikes!

smoky says herc beat him in a battle and his equipment was eventually stolen

the N twins started with smoky but they ended up in Herc's crew..

so that paints a picture of what happened, smoky was trying to do same thing but he flopped and he got overwhelmed by Herc, and now hes an asterik


and a similar picture can be drawn of what happened with mario and kool dj d, while they came first, they didint focus on the breakbeat and the bboy the way herc did, herc became THE dj for the bboys, to the point that we know from other oral histories that if you considered yourself a bboy you would be "required" to go to a herc party

flowers and pete dj jones may have been doing breaks but not the way herc was doing and not for the same crowd and not the same records

apparently what happened was herc's focus on the breakbeat and the bboy made him big, and the combination of a specific type of breakbeat and specific type of dance is where hip hop was distinguishable from anything else going on. so overall hip hop can be traced to kool herc, the only people i see that get props and credit for hip hop aside from herc are the black spades, mario and dj kool d, im just not seeing where anybody else can get credit,

either way this is all an intra bronx issue, hip hop CULTURE still started in the bronx, by african americans in the projects, rap music is an element that came along later and was dominated by bronx rappers coming out of the kool herc bboy scene, a lot of the stuff you posted just shows there was not an immaculate conception but the bulk of the typical history of hip hop stands

its a reach to add other boroughs and its blasphemous to make rap music equate with hip hop, the other boroughs and rap music came later after hip hop culture had started