African American is the tribe but Africa is home

[IllmaticDelta]

those dudes are just babbling, who the hell said that Kool Herc was playing actual hip hop records? who said kool herc was scratching?

that was mentioned because the devide between disco and hiphop didn't full exist until it was almost 1980.

of course he was playing disco, soul etc, but the point is he would extend the breakbeat so the b-boys

dude, they extended breaks even in the disco parties. They also had dancers/dance crews that were doing what would become early bboys

could dance and he would have MCs talking, thats hip hop, nobody was doing that before herc,

that's a damn lie...people who were around back then attest to the facts pete dj jones, flowers and kool dee etc all had dance crews and the earliest rappers. People who with herc flat out say that herc didn't rap and he had no rappers

in fact according to Cholly Rock, and to me he is very credible, b-boys didnt exist outside of the bronx, and as bboying spread the bboys had to come to the bronx to herc parties to get down, thats why kool herc gets the credit and others dont, all others were doing was playing records and throwing parties, hooray for them, but they werent hip hop, you cannot call yourself hip hop if you werent down with the bboys

they did have parts of the essential of bboying oustide the bronx but they didn't call themselves bboys. Uprocking aka Brooklyn Rocking, predates the coining of the term "breakdancer" or "bboy" in the Bronx

Uprock, or Rocking as it was originally referred to, also known as Rock, is a competitive urban street dance, performed to the beats and rhythms of soul, rock and funk music, but was mostly danced to a specific and exclusive collection of songs that contained a hard driving beat. An example of such a song is the Uprock classic "It's Just Begun" by noted jazz musician Jimmy Castor. The dance consists of foot shuffles, spins, turns, freestyle movements and more characteristically a four-point sudden body movement called "jerk".

Uprock evolved in New York City circa in the late 1960s. A precursor and influence to this form of dance was gang culture.

As Rocking/Uprocking developed, body movements called "jerks" and hand gestures called "burns" (as defined above in this article), would be added to emulate a fight against an opposing dancer. Being skillful in this new dance form, Apache would get the better of his opponents by skillfully using burns. Dancers throughout New York City in all Boroughs continued to invent new movements and gestures to create a street dance. Many gang members began to perform this dance. It became commonplace to see gang members hanging out in corners dancing against each other. Rocking/Uprocking became a competitive dance that caught on very quickly.

now, connect the dots....

On the Ilixor boards, PappaWheelie reports that "At a lecture about hip hop history at the Brooklyn public library the lecturer was interupted, while claiming hip hop to have originated out in the Bronx, by an angry man claiming hip hop to have started out in Brooklyn. After gaing the attention of the crowd the man, whose name escapes me now, proceded to produce photos and a flyer, both dated 1968, of Grandmaster Flowers rocking a party of thousands in Brooklyn and in the front row are what appeared to be bboys uprocking. Who knows, it might just turn out to be that Brooklyn keeps on makin it and its the Bronx that keeps on takin it."

Brooklyn Music: BrooklynBio: The Mystery of Grandmaster Flowers

and

Plummer- Yes, see I wasn’t in it to make a lot of money, that wasn’t in my mind. Had I seriously thought about that I don’t know if I seriously would have gotten as far and as fast as I did. The reason why I bought up Sedley is because he sounded like Hank Spann on the radio, so he was rapping over the records and all of the sudden between Pete d.j. Jones and myself we had a guy to rap over our music and then Flowers too got an m.c or two. Like I said we copied off of each other and so we all just got better every quickly.

Then there was these guys called the City Steppers (Flame, Michael, Dungie and Doc) and Sedley knew these folks. These were the guys that would take the card board out there and they would start doing break dancing and stuff, this was 1973, 74 and 75 I guess. They would come with us and do all this fantastic stuff and it just seemed like it happened so quickly.


Troy- Where did they come from did they just attach themselves to you?
Plummer- Yes, all these were high school kids or recent grads, and they found a way to contort their bodies and stuff like that. They were a bunch of kids and somehow it became competitive thing for them. I didn’t have them that often but they would come and they liked my music so they said,”Can we do this and I said fine.”

Troy- So you had guys like Rubber Band, Flame, Doc and etc.
Plummer- Yes I remember them and most of them are in the Atlanta area now. But to be honest with you they were cooler with Sedley then me.

Troy- How is Sedley doing today?
Plummer- He went to school for engineering, got a degree and later on he went into acting. He’s out in California now.

Troy- So this music bought you d.j.’s together into some sort of union. You said you categorized the music 3 different ways as spoken word, mix and dance? I bring that up because they have in hip hop 4 elements break dancing, graffiti, m.c.ing and d.j.ing. Was that what you guys actually called it among your peers and fans of the music?
Plummer- (after a long pause.) We never had those kinds of discussions; it had never been done that way before. I mean you always had the radio station d.j.’s of various flavors and they would do play with all kinds of spoken word, different kinds of rapping and stuff like that and then you had the different kinds of radio stations that specialized in different kinds of music and different d.j.’s that had their favorite types of programmed music. But we did everything on the fly and what just made us feel good. So we were inventing all this stuff as we went along. As far as those 3 categories you just spoke about I was really trying to describe to some people at a website (www.deephousepage.com) in a language for people to understand. We had the hip hop kind of stuff or the spoken word kind of stuff and that was sort of when Sedley B came, he would have these rhymes and it would be sort of competitive but most of it was speaking to the women. I would be mixing to the beat of the music and he would have these love poems towards the women. Then the competitive stuff started but by this time I was out of it, by the time Grand Master Flash and them came around I was already out.

Troy- Now you said you never even seen or heard of those guys like Herc or Flash during the time you was in the game!

Plummer- Nope! I was gone by then.

Old School Hip Hop Interviews - DJ Plummer | OldSchoolHipHop.Com

also

“Herc had the recognition, he was the big name in the Bronx back then”, explains AJ. “Back then the guys with the big names were: Kool D, Disco King Mario, Smokey and the Smoke-a-trons, Pete DJ Jones, Grandmaster Flowers and Kool Herc. Not even Bambaataa had a big name at that time, you know what I’m sayin?”

Ill-literature with Skillz to Blaze: One Night At the Executive Playhouse

^^the ones I bolded in blue are all before herc. Dj Smoke is from the same time and area as herc. More on him and his dance crew

he also flat out says kool dj dee/tyrone the mixologist/mario are before herc while still giving herc his props on the westside

 

[#1 pick]

As someone who use to go hard on Caribs/Africans I realize now it’s all childish. All this anti African/Carib talk on the coli got me feeling a certain way.

Likeminded AA not the link up with likeminded Caribs/Africans all these petty squabbles are silly.

I apologize for the dumb things I use to say on here to Africans/Caribbean because trolls got under my skin

While I fukk with you even tho we got our quarrels. I still love Black folks no matter what. bytchassness aside for a lot of these nikkas. That said, yall would get better treatment in Africa than they would. Just keeping it 100%

 

[#1 pick]

AA did have strong group identity after Empancipation. Reconstruction was proof of that.

This. Even the 1910s

How did African-American fight racial injustice from 1910 to 1919?

 

[Zak Bible]

As someone who use to go hard on Caribs/Africans I realize now it’s all childish. All this anti African/Carib talk on the coli got me feeling a certain way.

Likeminded AA not the link up with likeminded Caribs/Africans all these petty squabbles are silly.

I apologize for the dumb things I use to say on here to Africans/Caribbean because trolls got under my skin

african americans are the rulers of this shyt as far as im concerned.....are history is not what you think....there is a reason why africans try to come HERE

 

[get these nets]

repost of post #179 of this thread

Here is an interview with Red Alert


he mentions the Bronx scene and the downtown....(Brooklyn) scenes as though they were occurring simultaneously....
He mentions attending Herc parties AND Grandmaster Flowers parties at the same time


===

Here is the end of the Founding Fathers documentary where DJ Hollywood among others calls BS on Herc,Flash and Bam holding title of godfathers of hip hop

cued up




The importance of posting Red's interview is that he says he was attending uptown and downtown parties. He says it almost as if he was keeping it a secret back then. If Red was around both scenes..and he co-signs the Bronx as birthing hip hop, that says a lot. You figure the other pioneers were limited in only experiencing one of the scenes.

 

[theworldismine13]

that was mentioned because the devide between disco and hiphop didn't full exist until it was almost 1980.

dude, they extended breaks even in the disco parties. They also had dancers/dance crews that were doing what would become early bboys




that's a damn lie...people who were around back then attest to the facts pete dj jones, flowers and kool dee etc all had dance crews and the earliest rappers. People who with herc flat out say that herc didn't rap and he had no rappers





they did have parts of the essential of bboying oustide the bronx but they didn't call themselves bboys. Uprocking aka Brooklyn Rocking, predates the coining of the term "breakdancer" or "bboy" in the Bronx











now, connect the dots....

Brooklyn Music: BrooklynBio: The Mystery of Grandmaster Flowers

and



Old School Hip Hop Interviews - DJ Plummer | OldSchoolHipHop.Com

also



Ill-literature with Skillz to Blaze: One Night At the Executive Playhouse

^^the ones I bolded in blue are all before herc. Dj Smoke is from the same time and area as herc. More on him and his dance crew

he also flat out says kool dj dee/tyrone the mixologist/mario are before herc while still giving herc his props on the westside

its understood that in the 70's djs were not playing actual hip hop records

im not sure what book you are pasting, is that the Jeff Chang book? but even it refers to "Herc's innovation", what was the innovation? the innovation was repeating the breakbeat just for the bboys, there is no real evidence of anybody doing that before herc

the problem with what you are posting is that those are mostly disparate things that never came together, the brooklyn uprocking existed by itself , mario and the other djs were doing block parties and doing clubs, they were not doing block parties and clubs for the bboys, they were not repeating the breakbeat

saying they had dance crews isnt enough, if they had dance crews, what dances were they doing? if the dance crews were not doing bboy dances, in other words dances separate from the hustle or some shyt, before 1973 then they get no credit

Kool Herc did have rappers, it was Coke La Rock, Coke La Rock - Wikipedia considered to be the first rapper, but i would agree that him being the first rapper is debatable since other people were doing similar things

but a lot of what you are mentioning are individual things, kool herc (and by extension, the bronx) gets the credit cuz they all came together with him, the breakbeat, the bboy dances, the mc

i havent listened to the green eye genie video tho, ill check it out later

 

[Neuromancer]

If unity is the solution then let us unify.

 

[IllmaticDelta]

repost of post #179 of this thread

Here is an interview with Red Alert


he mentions the Bronx scene and the downtown....(Brooklyn) scenes as though they were occurring simultaneously....
He mentions attending Herc parties AND Grandmaster Flowers parties at the same time


===

Here is the end of the Founding Fathers documentary where DJ Hollywood among others calls BS on Herc,Flash and Bam holding title of godfathers of hip hop

cued up




The importance of posting Red's interview is that he says he was attending uptown and downtown parties. He says it almost as if he was keeping it a secret back then. If Red was around both scenes..and he co-signs the Bronx as birthing hip hop, that says a lot. You figure the other pioneers were limited in only experiencing one of the scenes.

remember, red alert is younger than the likes of pete dj jones, plummer, kool d so he's the energy differently. Remember, when the disco guys were spinning in the clubs, you had to dress up and that' why the difference in perception between the disco vs bboys comes from

Crocker was banging the joints. Besides that when I wasn’t listening to WBLS I was listening to WWRL. Between Hank Span, Eddie O’Jay and Jerry Bledsoe, those were the cats I was listening to on the radio. Before I got to the Bronx I was also heading downtown. I was going to different places down town, like on a Thursday after work or a late night Friday. I am not supposed to be in these spots but I am able to get up in there. I was like 16, 17 years old. The first spot I used to go into was Nell Gwen’s. Nell Gwen’s used to be on the corner of 42nd street and Park Avenue, it was across the street from Grand Central station. I think it used to be a restaurant during the day and a club at night. When I got there that was when I heard the beginning of full disco sound, right along with radio records. The DJs that were in there at that time was the Together Brothers that were from Brooklyn. Different DJs took turns every week. I always bounced down there to hear those DJ’s. Also Pete D.J. Jones, then there was the first female DJ I ever heard name Becky D.J. Jones. Who was Pete’s girl at the time. Also Grand Master Flowers played down there.



What about Maboya?



I never really heard of him, but I did catch Plummer and DJ Charisma.



What about Levan?



No I never went to the Garage on his night. I have been there on a Friday but not on a Saturday. Levan I think was part of the deep disco and High Energy, like places like Studio 54 or something similar to that, then you had the spots like Nell Gwen, Hotel Diplomat and Superstar Cafeteria. These were like the three main spots around 42nd street area. Besides that you had a place called the River Boat, you had another club called Pippins, also another club called Leviticus. These spots were for quote unquote black dapper, sophisticated audience. Here it is when you think about Levan you think about the cats like Larry Patterson, Kenny Carpenter and Bruce Forrest and them. They were more towards that gay audience. That’s why I say it’s a separation there.



Your man Kool Kyle the Star Child told me it was two types of disco being played also. That Euro Disco with say for instance Kraftwerk and then your man at 371 would play that Ring my Bell by Anita Ward type disco.

​

Right, see what it is, is it would be separated. Cats that lived in the Bronx and Harlem that didn’t feel like going all the way down town also didn’t feel like paying all that money, would stay up town and go to 371. The people that came out of 371 were rest in peace June Bug, Hollywood, Reggie Wells and Eddie Cheba. I have to tell you the God’s honest truth, I never stepped in there one time in my life!



Word, why not?



Well I was always with quote unquote the grime side. The grimy side is what we are going to talk about later on.




The reason why I say that is because you would still go to those same types of clubs like 371 downtown.

Yes you are right, but that was because that was what was introduced to me in the beginning. So at that time I was playing both sides of the music. So now with the grime side I would go to Herc’s parties at the Twilight Zone, he later started rocking at the Hevalo. By the time he started rocking at the Hevalo you had to be dressed!

YEEEEEEESSSSSS!!!!

don't get it twisted, red alert was around disco king mario before he knew about herc

 

[IllmaticDelta]

its understood that in the 70's djs were not playing actual hip hop records

my point was disco guys and he hiphop heads basically had the same records

im not sure what book you are pasting, is that the Jeff Chang book? but even it refers to "Herc's innovation", what was the innovation? the innovation was repeating the breakbeat just for the bboys, there is no real evidence of anybody doing that before herc

there is evidence of people looping before herc. herc got the idea from the discos

the problem with what you are posting is that those are mostly disparate things that never came together, the brooklyn uprocking existed by itself , mario and the other djs were doing block parties and doing clubs, they were not doing block parties and clubs for the bboys, they were not repeating the breakbeat

there wwre no bboys in the beginning. the parties started because they were the ghetto alternatives to actual discos/clubs. herc had no bboys or rappers at his earliest throwdowns

saying they had dance crews isnt enough, if they had dance crews, what dances were they doing? if the dance crews were not doing bboy dances, in other words dances separate from the hustle or some shyt, before 1973 then they get no credit

did you read the articles? The people were doing early era verisons of bboying with burns and jerks. The earliest form of bboying was top uprocking/toprocking

Kool Herc did have rappers, it was Coke La Rock, Coke La Rock - Wikipedia considered to be the first rapper, but i would agree that him being the first rapper is debatable since other people were doing similar things

herc didn't have rappers and coke only freelance talked. Never syncopated to the beat aka rapping. Numerous people from herc's scene, even herc himself acknowledge this

but a lot of what you are mentioning are individual things, kool herc (and by extension, the bronx) gets the credit cuz they all came together with him, the breakbeat, the bboy dances, the mc

no, he got distorted credit for what he was doing on the west side of the bronx but people who were there, say that him being the origin is false

i havent listened to the green eye genie video tho, ill check it out later

check it out. he mention herc, kool dee-mario, flash etc..

 

[8WON6]

people fighting hard not to credit AAs with hiphop.

 

[Brer Dog]

people fighting hard not to credit AAs with hiphop.

Even with @IllmaticDelta showing them proof

 

[theworldismine13]

my point was disco guys and he hiphop heads basically had the same records

yeah i get that, im just saying thats obvious

the interview you posted from allhiphip, the dudes were saying that herc wasnt playing hip hop records and wasnt scratching as if that is an argument against him, hip hop records didnt exist in 1973 so of course they were all playing the same records

there is evidence of people looping before herc. herc got the idea from the discos

the reason why kool herc gets credit for hip hop is not that he was the first DJ or the biggest DJ, it was that he was the first to loop the records specifically for the bboys

this is from your link Ill-literature with Skillz to Blaze: One Night At the Executive Playhouse

One group played the popular music of the day for party-going adult audiences in clubs in downtown Manhattan. The other played raw funk and break-beats for a rapidly growing, fanatic – almost cult-like following of teenagers in rec centers and parks. Both sides had their devotees.

this right there is why kool herc gets credit as starting hip hop

there wwre no bboys in the beginning. the parties started because they were the ghetto alternatives to actual discos/clubs. herc had no bboys or rappers at his earliest throwdowns

i dont know what exactly happened at the very first party, but the text from your link shows that isnt true, kool herc was the DJ for the bboys

did you read the articles? The people were doing early era verisons of bboying with burns and jerks. The earliest form of bboying was top uprocking/toprocking

yes, and? bboying started in the bronx, brooklyn did not have the equivalent of a kool herc, a DJ who spun records just for them

herc didn't have rappers and coke only freelance talked. Never syncopated to the beat aka rapping. Numerous people from herc's scene, even herc himself acknowledge this

there were no rappers in 1973, they were only MCs talking over the DJ, the fact that herc did not have actual rappers doesnt mean anything, rap music came after 1973

no, he got distorted credit for what he was doing on the west side of the bronx but people who were there, say that him being the origin is false

check it out. he mention herc, kool dee-mario, flash etc..

what exactly is it that you are saying people were doing in the west side of the bronx?

i don think you get it, nobody is saying is that kool herc was the first DJ, kool herc was the first DJ to spin breakbeats specifically for the bboys, thats what he was known for, thats what made him famous in the bronx and thats why he gets the credit, thats why bronx gets the credit

 

[theworldismine13]

people fighting hard not to credit AAs with hiphop.

i dont know if you are referring to me but in my post i said the idea of hip hop being caribbean is BS, kool herc being of caribbean descent is irrelevant because he was pretty much integrated into african american culture, so hip hop is african american

im beefing with this notion that hip hop started in other boroughs, thats silly, that founding fathers doc is trying to give credit to people who had nothing to do with bboys and did not focus on breakbeats, which are things that are distinctly hip hop, half the djs mentioned in the doc would have kicked bboys out their party, its basically saying such and such was throwing parties out in queens or brooklyn so they should get credit for hip hop...nah i don think so, hip hop started in the bronx with Kool herc and the bboys

 

[8WON6]

i dont know if you are referring to me but in my post i said the idea of hip hop being caribbean is BS, kool herc being of caribbean descent is irrelevant because he was pretty much integrated into african american culture, so hip hop is african american

im beefing with this notion that hip hop started in other boroughs, thats silly, that founding fathers doc is trying to give credit to people who had nothing to with bboy and did not focus on breakbeats, which are things that are distinctly hip hop, its basically saying such and such was throwing parties out in queens or brooklyn so they should get credit for hip hop...nah i don think so, hip hop started in the bronx

All I know is @IllmaticDelta has debated this topic thoroughly on the coli with different. People desperately want to claim that hiphop was started by non-AAs. We know why.

 

[theworldismine13]

All I know is @IllmaticDelta has debated this topic thoroughly on the coli with different. People desperately want to claim that hiphop was started by non-AAs. We know why.

i havent seen those threads, im caribbean from brooklyn, i know my hip hop history

i havetn seen it but i know there is a doc saying hip hop is caribbean, hip hop being caribbean is BS, hip hop is thoroughly african american, i have seen the founding fathers doc saying other boroughs started hip hop and its BS, hip hop started in the bronx

both those docs are reaching, they are using tangential information to draw conclusions

hip hop was started by african americans in the bronx

edit: to be even more specific, by african americans from the projects in the bronx