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IllmaticDelta

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the interview you posted from allhiphip, the dudes were saying that herc wasnt playing hip hop records and wasnt scratching as if that is an argument against him, hip hop records didnt exist in 1973 so of course they were all playing the same records

his point was that the seperation between the two styles was a false one during most of the 1970's.They were one in the same outside of dress code

the reason why kool herc gets credit for hip hop is not that he was the first DJ or the biggest DJ, it was that he was the first to loop the records specifically for the bboys

this is from your link Ill-literature with Skillz to Blaze: One Night At the Executive Playhouse



this right there is why kool herc gets credit as starting hip hop



i dont know what exactly happened at the very first party, but the text from your link shows that isnt true, kool herc was the DJ for the bboys

the date that they credit herc for starting hiphop was a time where there were no people identified as bboys. herc's earliest jams he was not doing any breakbeats/merry go round


xWLwxfJ.jpg


Interesting riff between Herc and Bambattas camp (Zulu Nation) on the origin of HipHop culture. Who said there was no debate on the origins from the Og's?:mjlol:

AllHipHop News) There has been a lot of fanfare over the past week in celebration of what has been reported as the 40th anniversary of the birth of Hip Hop.
DJ Kool Herc is one originator that has become almost synonymous with the creation of the culture, but Quadeer “M.C. Spice” Shakur of the Universal Zulu Nation released a statement announcing that Hip Hop did not begin with Herc’s famous party at 1520 Sedgewick Avenue in the Bronx on August 11, 1973.

According to Shakur, Herc is a founding father of Hip-Hop, but he has been misrepresenting his role in the founding of Hip Hop on various news outlets.

The Zulu Nation Minister of Information also states that Kool Herc has asked his name not be included in any Zulu Nation Hip Hop Culture anniversary flyers several of years ago.


In portions of his statement titled “MISREPRESENTATION OF A CULTURE BY A FOREFATHER”, Shakur writes:

Herc is our brother, but when our family strays from us, we must first forgive them for mistakes, but let them know of their wrongdoings, and of course, welcome them back with open arms. We could go on forever about how many artists who are heavily a part of, or were a part of the Universal Zulu Nation, know and understand how serious this is. By no means should ANY of us attempt to change the course of history and flip it for a dollar or for accolades from an industry of Culture Vultures called “the media”, when we have known and still do know that many in the media want the false, doctored-up UN-truths, not the REAL truth. Especially when it comes to Hip-Hop. What is further disturbing is the falsehood that Kool Herc failed to respect the TRUE first ladies of Hip-Hop: ShaRock, Lisa Lee, Debbie Dee, Queen Amber. The women who were there ON THE MIC representing this Culture. Kool Herc went as far as saying his SISTER is the “first lady of Hip-Hop”. Kool Herc’s sister is also his marketing rep, and is part of promoting the falsehood that she (Cindy) is the “First Lady” of Hip-Hop. That’s NOT TRUE.

Kool Herc, aka Clive Campbell DID NOT BIRTH HIP-HOP CULTURE 40 YEARS AGO ON AUGUST 11, 1973. In fact, Kool Herc only did a Back To School JAM in the recreation room at 1520 Sedgewick Avenue in the Bronx. No emcees were present, no “Hip-Hop” was present (a term heavily used by LoveBug Starski and Keith Cowboy), and the Zulu Nation was already in effect. THIS is the reason for this message. Please get a pen and write this down, or go stand near the chalkboard and write this one hundred times to make SURE you remember: HIP-HOP CULTURE IS 39 YEARS OLD…ZULU NATION IS 40 YEARS OLD.


Some may say there’s no difference, and it’s only a year. But truth is, Kool Herc appears to be working with outside forces to overstep and outshine what is taking place THIS November 12th: The 40th Anniversary of the Universal Zulu Nation. Do you know how big that really is? How dangerous that really is? That so many brothers and sisters of the same accord have been together THIS strong for THIS long?

To be forthcoming about the FACTS concerning this message, we MUST inform those who are a part of this Culture that Universal Zulu Nation does NOT condone falsehoods with respects to this Culture of ours. Kool Herc may have done PARTIES, but a PARTY does NOT represent a MOVEMENT. Nor does a PARTY CREATE a movement. But the CULTURE of Hip-Hop CREATED a MOVEMENT and REPRESENTS a movement. Zulu represents and always WILL represent the four spiritual PRINCIPLES of The Culture: Peace, Unity, Love and Having Fun. We also promoted and rocked parties UTILIZING the five physical ELEMENTS of the Culture: Deejaying, Graffitti, Breakdancing, Emceeing and KNOWLEDGE. I would hope that Herc would adhere to the KNOWLEDGE of our Culture and refrain form the misrepresentation and falsehoods. This message is to inform you that there is NO TRUTH to what you have been hearing about Kool Herc and Hip-Hop having a 40th anniversary. Maybe Kool HERC was deejaying for 40 years. Maybe so. But Kool Herc has nothing to do with the TERM “Hip-Hop”. It was a Culture he was INVITED to once our founder Afrika Bambaataa FOUNDED the Culture USING the term. That said, I would venture to say that perhaps Kool Herc’s SOUND system , “The Herculords” is 40 years old, but not Hip-Hop. Give it another year, Herc. And give it a rest. We love you, but we MUST correct you, brother. Happy 39th birthday, Hip-Hop. Happy 40th Birthday, Zulu Nation.

Zulu Nation Says DJ Kool Herc Did Not Start Hip Hop And Is Misrepresenting The Culture - AllHipHop.com





yes, and? bboying started in the bronx, brooklyn did not have the equivalent of a kool herc, a DJ who spun records just for them

early bboying before that title attached to it was uprocking/toprocking was being done outside the bronx to the same funky records





there were no rappers in 1973, they were only MCs talking over the DJ, the fact that herc did not have actual rappers doesnt mean anything, rap music came after 1973

you mean in the herc scene. rappers existed in the disco scene like eddie cheeba, kc the prince of soul and Dj Hollywood, the father of the modern rapper


"Dj Hollywood was the blueprint for the syncopated style"



1*FwTsSLF2XEecgAQ2KOedtQ.jpeg







^^
Zulu Nation Says DJ Kool Herc Did Not Start Hip Hop And Is Misrepresenting The Culture - AllHipHop.com


A couple of interesting posts from Rahiem of Grandmaster Flash & The Furious 5, who came up in the Herc scene..




Now here is his take on how rapping started...

"Dancers that did a dance called the B-boying or that danced to Boioing music came directly from Kool Herc parties. Kool Herc's emcees didn't rhyme to the beat but they said catchy phrases that were adopted by emcees who expounded on what they were doing after Herc's emcees and then when emcees heard DJ Hollywood is when they began rhyming to the beat!" (confirmed by grandmaser caz in dj vlad interview)

^^more, proof herc wasn't rapping, something herc himself has never claimed to have done


what exactly is it that you are saying people were doing in the west side of the bronx?

Im talking about people (younger people of that time) only having knowledge of what was going on in that part of the bronx vs the other otherparts, specifically, bronxdale with disco king mario/kool dee



i don think you get it, nobody is saying is that kool herc was the first DJ, kool herc was the first DJ to spin breakbeats specifically for the bboys, thats what he was known for, thats what made him famous in the bronx and thats why he gets the credit, thats why bronx gets the credit

I already said herc got misinformed credit this is why people from that time are now trying to correct and tell the true history

the herc origins have always been questioned by people who were there at the time and they're starting to speak out on it more to show that alot of history of early hiphop has been left out/distorted:usure:












 

theworldismine13

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his point was that the seperation between the two styles was a false one during most of the 1970's.They were one in the same outside of dress code

the dress code was not a minor issue, one thing in common between the founders is that they are all from the projects

the social dynamic that was going is that a lot of well established djs were and trying to go mainstream and trying to get the biggest crowds and to play at regular clubs

so its not minor issue that kool herc was playing specifically for the bboys, he was playing for a crowd that wasnt being catered to by the other djs, saying he was playing for the bboys is another way of saying he was playing for the kids from the projects, and again this is why herc gets the credit

its not good enough to say that dj such and such was playing during the time unless you also connect to the bboys aka the kids from the projects and yo connect it to hip hop


the date that they credit herc for starting hiphop was a time where there were no people identified as bboys. herc's earliest jams he was not doing any breakbeats/merry go round


xWLwxfJ.jpg

im not following why you keep pasting pages of this book that is agreeing that it started with herc, is this the jeff Chang book

Interesting riff between Herc and Bambattas camp (Zulu Nation) on the origin of HipHop culture. Who said there was no debate on the origins from the Og's?:mjlol:



Zulu Nation Says DJ Kool Herc Did Not Start Hip Hop And Is Misrepresenting The Culture - AllHipHop.com

this just sounds emotional, the same arguments you are using against herc would apply to the zulu nation


early bboying before that title attached to it was uprocking/toprocking was being done outside the bronx to the same funky records

im not disputing that, im disputing that they had a DJ that brought it together

for your anti herc argument to make sense, its not enough to show that disparate parts were being practiced elsewhere you have to show how they were brought together

yes people in brooklyn were making special dances.....and? they were doing dances in the west coast also


you mean in the herc scene. rappers existed in the disco scene like eddie cheeba, kc the prince of soul and Dj Hollywood, the father of the modern rapper


"Dj Hollywood was the blueprint for the syncopated style"



1*FwTsSLF2XEecgAQ2KOedtQ.jpeg







^^
Zulu Nation Says DJ Kool Herc Did Not Start Hip Hop And Is Misrepresenting The Culture - AllHipHop.com


A couple of interesting posts from Rahiem of Grandmaster Flash & The Furious 5, who came up in the Herc scene..

Now here is his take on how rapping started...

"Dancers that did a dance called the B-boying or that danced to Boioing music came directly from Kool Herc parties. Kool Herc's emcees didn't rhyme to the beat but they said catchy phrases that were adopted by emcees who expounded on what they were doing after Herc's emcees and then when emcees heard DJ Hollywood is when they began rhyming to the beat!" (confirmed by grandmaser caz in dj vlad interview)

^^more, proof herc wasn't rapping, something herc himself has never claimed to have done


i think thats correct, rapping did not start with kool herc, but herc had MCs

none of what you quoted says that hip hop didnt start with kool herc, in fact its explaining how rapping is connected to Kool Herc

just to make sure we using the same vocab, you do know that hip hop and rap are not the same thing...........right? rap is a form of MCing and MCing is an element of hip hop

so explaining the origins of rap music, which happened after 1973 isnt helping your argument



Im talking about people (younger people of that time) only having knowledge of what was going on in that part of the bronx vs the other otherparts, specifically, bronxdale with disco king mario/kool dee

but you need to specify what exactly they were doing that makes you classify them as hip hop and also that they were doing it before herc, if not your argument is weak, you are essentially saying anybody that was was doing anything was hip hop and are ignoring the crucial distinguishing things that make things hip hop







I already said herc got misinformed credit this is why people from that time are now trying to correct and tell the true history

the herc origins have always been questioned by people who were there at the time and they're starting to speak out on it more to show that alot of history of early hiphop has been left out/distorted:usure:














i have to look at this vids to comment on them, ive seen a few of them already when they came out, the main issue, from what i remember was KRS portraying Bambatta as the head of the Spades gang that ended gang violence in NYC when in fact bambattaa was a lieutenant so to speak, i think he was a baby spade even if i recall, the other stuff is making the same argument you are making, which is essentially ignoring the issue of the Bboy and saying anybody that was doing anything at the time was hip hop, i dont really trust the Mike character ever since Michael Wayne quoted a part of the book by Jeff Chang that said the spades use to intimidate people people in the clubs and Mike when on a rant denying it, which was silly, he is to emotional to be reliable source, i trust Cholly Rock tho, but ill check these out later
 
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K.O.N.Y

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that was mentioned because the devide between disco and hiphop didn't full exist until it was almost 1980.

hUmEPJu.jpg


bUf7vTv.jpg




dude, they extended breaks even in the disco parties. They also had dancers/dance crews that were doing what would become early bboys




that's a damn lie...people who were around back then attest to the facts pete dj jones, flowers and kool dee etc all had dance crews and the earliest rappers. People who with herc flat out say that herc didn't rap and he had no rappers





they did have parts of the essential of bboying oustide the bronx but they didn't call themselves bboys. Uprocking aka Brooklyn Rocking, predates the coining of the term "breakdancer" or "bboy" in the Bronx











now, connect the dots....

zer9t56.jpg





Brooklyn Music: BrooklynBio: The Mystery of Grandmaster Flowers

and



Old School Hip Hop Interviews - DJ Plummer | OldSchoolHipHop.Com

also



Ill-literature with Skillz to Blaze: One Night At the Executive Playhouse

^^the ones I bolded in blue are all before herc. Dj Smoke is from the same time and area as herc. More on him and his dance crew




V9zXsde.jpg





he also flat out says kool dj dee/tyrone the mixologist/mario are before herc while still giving herc his props on the westside



yo this green eyed genie dude is entertaining. Thanks for posting that lol
 

IllmaticDelta

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the dress code was not a minor issue, one thing in common between the founders is that they are all from the projects

the social dynamic that was going is that a lot of well established djs were and trying to go mainstream and trying to get the biggest crowds and to play at regular clubs

the older dj's played in clubs and outside. Disco Mario and Dj Kool D were black spades




so its not minor issue that kool herc was playing specifically for the bboys, he was playing for a crowd that wasnt being catered to by the other djs, saying he was playing for the bboys is another way of saying he was playing for the kids from the projects, and again this is why herc gets the credit

herc was not rocking to kids before disco king mario



disco king mario

4392710766_6bc6ac21ef_z.jpg





according to Jazzy Jay



Do you remember the first jam you played at? What were the atmosphere and vibe of the jam?
We didn’t have much money to purchase the equipment back then, so we would salvage things from our neighborhood. One person would have a receiver, one person would have a speaker, one person would have an amp and another would have a turntable. We couldn’t even afford a mic, so we would usually plugged up our headphones in the mic jack to talk. It was real grassroots and completely amateur. The very first jam I played at was in either 1974 or 75, in Soundview at this spot called The Little Houses, which actually used to be Army barracks. So I just brought my equipment and set up there, because we could do that back then.

What were some of your favorite block parties and park jams in the 70s? Who threw them?
One of the things I always used to do back in the day was roll by Afrika Bambaataa’s crib. He used to play music and leave the windows wide open for everyone in Bronx River to hear. He would play music 24/7. So I would be doing tricks on my bike, while everyone else would be playing cards or dominos in the center of the projects. We would gather around to listen to Bam play out his window.

7957


But as far as the block parties and park jams go, people like Disco King Mario, from Bronxdale Projects, Kool Dee, and this other cat from the Bronx River projects named Tyrone were the guys around my neighborhood doing the first block parties and park jams. Disco King Mario was the first dude I saw bringing out the big speakers, Kool Dee was the dude you would see playing at Bronx River Center and Tyrone was a bass guitarist who lived in the neighborhood.

Tyrone would set up his column head and he would plug up his Pioneer turntables to the column head to play records. One of his favorite records to play was The Blackbyrds “City Life” and “The Bus Stop” by BT Express. Bam used to come out with his crew do their little dances. They actually had the hood version of the Achy Breaky Heart that they called “The Bus Stop.” We were all doing this dance in the neighborhood at the time.

http://www.redbullbcone.com/en/blog/_/Disco+King+Mario

.
.
.



and kool dee are the ones who put baambatta on




straight from bam's mouth






its not good enough to say that dj such and such was playing during the time unless you also connect to the bboys aka the kids from the projects and yo connect it to hip hop

hiphop was about the music before there were bboys. Remember, hiphop began as cheap/ghetto alternative to disco clubs and ultimately came to be defined by the rapper.






im not following why you keep pasting pages of this book that is agreeing that it started with herc, is this the jeff Chang book

I posted a specific passage about herc's first party and then gave you a link to a recent article where Zulu nation denies Herc's claims and within that link, raheim from the furious 5 who came up in ther Herc scene, clearly sates that herc had no rappers and that Dj Hollywood was the first rapper!



this just sounds emotional, the same arguments you are using against herc would apply to the zulu nation

correct! because herc and baam didn't start hiphop




im not disputing that, im disputing that they had a DJ that brought it together

for your anti herc argument to make sense, its not enough to show that disparate parts were being practiced elsewhere you have to show how they were brought together

yes people in brooklyn were making special dances.....and? they were doing dances in the west coast also

the difference is that dances that were being done in brooklyn (rocking) are exactly the ones that are foundational/begat bboys!




i think thats correct, rapping did not start with kool herc, but herc had MCs

none of what you quoted says that hip hop didnt start with kool herc, in fact its explaining how rapping is connected to Kool Herc

tenor.gif



herc has nothing to do with rapping.....



Quote from Kevie Kev the captain of the L- Brothers, Leader of the Fantastic Four and Five M.C.s and a member once of the Furious Five M.C.s. This interview is very telling because it explains why what he call "rappers" today were called "emcees" in the Herc Bronx scene.

Q -The first m.c. you heard on the mic was one of Herc’s boy’s?



A -No, no, they wasn’t really m.c.ing, they just use to talk on the mic. The first m.c.’s I saw was Creole and Mele Mel.



Q- So what about Coke La Rock, did he also just talk on the mic?



A - Yeah he used to talk on the mic, little slurs or what ever, but he was like the strong arm to Herc’s crew. He was like the voice unheard, you know what I am saying, the low. That’s my man.



Q - As far as an m.c., did he get down like ya’ll did, because I have a lot of people that ask me about Coke La Rock?



A - No, it’s different, it was totally different. If we used to try to rhyme, he used to just talk.



(interviewer) Right.



A -Like a real m.c., a master of ceremony.



Quote from Scorpio one of the founding members to the group, Grandmaster Flash and the Furious 5


JQ : Furious was one of the original groups outside of the Herculords right ?

SC : With the Herculords - Timmy Tim & Coke La Rock they never rhymed ; they just said lil phrases like "yes yall youre now listening to the sounds of Kool Herc and the Herculords" . But we were the first group in the Bronx to do full rhymes to the beat . If we own any patent ,its that rhymin' to the beat


SCORPIO







just to make sure we using the same vocab, you do know that hip hop and rap are not the same thing...........right? rap is a form of MCing and MCing is an element of hip hop

rap is the biggest element part of hiphop culture.

so explaining the origins of rap music, which happened after 1973 isnt helping your argument

rapping dj's is before 1973!!!!







but you need to specify what exactly they were doing that makes you classify them as hip hop and also that they were doing it before herc, if not your argument is weak, you are essentially saying anybody that was was doing anything was hip hop and are ignoring the crucial distinguishing things that make things hip hop

hiphop is/was essentially

rapping on the mic (this what a product of the black overground discos, not the gay underground ones)
the music being funk/disco (non-hustle type) based
street dancing (spade dancing, brooklyn rocking , which begat, bboying)








.....so no, not every dj at that time was doing hiphop. This is why we don't consider the dj's that were in the gay disco's as hiphop.
 

theworldismine13

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the older dj's played in clubs and outside. Disco Mario and Dj Kool D were black spades

disco mario and dj kool were from the bronx, disco mario and the black spades is what led to the bboy which led to hip hop, but other djs were not from the bronx and they were not black spades so you cant use mario to prove that others started hip hop, you cant use them to credit other boroughs

so if i prove to you that there was a guy DJing parties in cleveland.....so that means that they were ding hip hop also?

you posted this video of kool DJ Dee

where he explains at 6:53 why the djs in brooklyn and queens were not hip hop, i hadnt seen this video but he breaks it down like i said from the beginning that what is distinctively hip hop is the combination of the breakbeat and the bboy...and thats why the founding fathers doc is garbage, and as he explains the caribbean origin theory is garbage also

i dont want to put words in your mouth but it seems that you are saying that anybody that was djing before kool herc was hip hop and therefore herc shouldnt get credit for starting hip hop? imo if you are going to say somebody started something you have to show that what they were doing was distinctive

herc was not rocking to kids before disco king mario



disco king mario

4392710766_6bc6ac21ef_z.jpg


according to Jazzy Jay

that flyer is from 1981

but again mario gets his props, but dont try to extend those props to non bronx residents, mario is is evidence that hip hop started in the bronx

the other videos you are posting are very good, ive seen a lot of them from way back, i posted the Part 1 of the cholly rock interview on breakdancing in this thread

ive said from the beginning that hip hop began with african americans from the projects in the bronx, anybody saying anything different is full of shyt, thank you for posting videos that show that

hiphop was about the music before there were bboys. Remember, hiphop began as cheap/ghetto alternative to disco clubs and ultimately came to be defined by the rapper.



you were doing so well :snoop:

that is not the correct view, what makes hip hop distinctive is the breakbeat and the bboy, rap music came after




I posted a specific passage about herc's first party and then gave you a link to a recent article where Zulu nation denies Herc's claims and within that link, raheim from the furious 5 who came up in ther Herc scene, clearly sates that herc had no rappers and that Dj Hollywood was the first rapper!





correct! because herc and baam didn't start hiphop

the zulu harc beef is some random petty beef, imnot even sure what the point is, but bambatta for sure didint start hip hop since he came after herc


the difference is that dances that were being done in brooklyn (rocking) are exactly the ones that are foundational/begat bboys!

are you not watching your videos, cholly rock explained that the bboy in the bronx was not related to brooklyn dancing and that it came from the spades dancing, brooklyn is not the foundation of bboying, thats crazy talk

and there was no DJ bringing the dancing together, kool DJ dee explained that the djs in brooklyn and queens were not playing breakbeats


tenor.gif



herc has nothing to do with rapping.....



Quote from Kevie Kev the captain of the L- Brothers, Leader of the Fantastic Four and Five M.C.s and a member once of the Furious Five M.C.s. This interview is very telling because it explains why what he call "rappers" today were called "emcees" in the Herc Bronx scene.




Quote from Scorpio one of the founding members to the group, Grandmaster Flash and the Furious 5




SCORPIO

nobody is claiming that herc started rapping

rap is the biggest element part of hiphop culture.



rapping dj's is before 1973!!!!





rap is the most commercially viable element of hip hop culture
hiphop is/was essentially

rapping on the mic (this what a product of the black overground discos, not the gay underground ones)
the music being funk/disco (non-hustle type) based
street dancing (spade dancing, brooklyn rocking , which begat, bboying)


ok good, so now we see part of the problem, we are using different vocabulary, so when you ask who started hip hop, in your mind that equates to who started rap music....:ohhh: and kool herc wasnt rapping so therefore he cant be credited with hip hop.....ok:snoop:



now you have the right to those points of view, but there are very few people would agree with your premises, the notion of equating hip hop with rap because rap is the biggest elements is totally fuking nuts if you are a true hip hop head

but i will stand by what ive said, hip hop was started by african americans in the projects in the bronx, those videos you posted are evidence of that

and from what ive read and and understand the breakbeat and the bboy is the defining characteristics of hip hop because they are distinctive and rap came after



.....so no, not every dj at that time was doing hiphop. This is why we don't consider the dj's that were in the gay disco's as hiphop.

so anybody that was djing in the 70s but was not doing it at gay clubs was hip hop?
 
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BlackPrint

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herc does speak with a southern tinged accent mixed with a west indian one

Kool Herc on The Combat Jack Show




in 1970, that was pred true

Nothing about the way Kool Herc talks is Southern gz. You posted a video of a Jamaican speaking wit a Jamaican NYC accent.


Shouldn’t be too hard to show me some early Bronx hip hop acts that rapped with Southern accents then, right?
 

3rdWorld

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Nothing about the way Kool Herc talks is Southern gz. You posted a video of a Jamaican speaking wit a Jamaican NYC accent.


Shouldn’t be too hard to show me some early Bronx hip hop acts that rapped with Southern accents then, right?

The South came late to the party..Im still yet to see these southern rappers from before Kool Herc.

The South trying to claim hip hop is as disrespectful and ludicrous as Hispanics trying to claim credit for hip hop..
 

IllmaticDelta

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disco mario and dj kool were from the bronx, disco mario and the black spades is what led to the bboy which led to hip hop, but other djs were not from the bronx and they were not black spades so you cant use mario to prove that others started hip hop, you cant use them to credit other boroughs

dude, I already covered how mario, kool d, pete dj jones, hollywood and flowers impacted hiphop. I specifally named those dj's, not any other ones


so if i prove to you that there was a guy DJing parties in cleveland.....so that means that they were ding hip hop also?

see above

you posted this video of kool DJ Dee

where he explains at 6:53 why the djs in brooklyn and queens were not hip hop, i hadnt seen this video but he breaks it down like i said from the beginning that what is distinctively hip hop is the combination of the breakbeat and the bboy...and thats why the founding fathers doc is garbage, and as he explains the caribbean origin theory is garbage also


that's all that needed to be said:hubie:



i dont want to put words in your mouth but it seems that you are saying that anybody that was djing before kool herc was hip hop and therefore herc shouldnt get credit for starting hip hop? imo if you are going to say somebody started something you have to show that what they were doing was distinctive

dude I just explained why hiphop was around before herc in the previous posts



that flyer is from 1981

but again mario gets his props, but dont try to extend those props to non bronx residents, mario is is evidence that hip hop started in the bronx

I already touched on this...the people who were there vouch that he was hiphop and before herc



that is not the correct view, what makes hip hop distinctive is the breakbeat and the bboy, rap music came after

no, rapping predates bboys. The music was the first thing that started it combined with rapping dj's. Rapping on came last in the herc scene.






the zulu harc beef is some random petty beef, imnot even sure what the point is, but bambatta for sure didint start hip hop since he came after herc

true but their point is that herc's claims of starting hiphop at his sisters party in 73 is false for the reasons already stated




are you not watching your videos, cholly rock explained that the bboy in the bronx was not related to brooklyn dancing and that it came from the spades dancing, brooklyn is not the foundation of bboying, thats crazy talk

he said that but you gotta connect the dots. Everything their describing about spade dancing is exactly what the brooklyn was and we know other areas pucked up on the rocking dance

Although women participated in this style of dance, it was usually danced by two men facing each other. The underlying philosophy of Uprocking was to undermine the "opponent" with hand gestures called "burns". One would "burn" one's opponent with a variety of these hand gestures that would mimic an action that would be considered detrimental to the dancer's adversary. Two examples of typical and fundamental burns are the bow and arrow, and the shotgun. The "winner" of these mock battles was usually the individual who was able to choreograph and execute his or her burns creatively and even artistically to the rhythm and syncopation of the music.

In this sophisticated and rhythmic form of Rock-paper-scissors, one would have to dance thoughtfully as to not step forward and inadvertently get one's head "sledge hammered". Although it is common knowledge that Uprocking is supposed to be a mock battle, those who are less professional sometimes get carried away with the dance which can result in real violence.

Uprock evolved in New York City circa in the late 1960s. A precursor and influence to this form of dance was gang culture.

As Rocking/Uprocking developed, body movements called "jerks" and hand gestures called "burns" (as defined above in this article), would be added to emulate a fight against an opposing dancer. Being skillful in this new dance form, Apache would get the better of his opponents by skillfully using burns. Dancers throughout New York City in all Boroughs continued to invent new movements and gestures to create a street dance. Many gang members began to perform this dance. It became commonplace to see gang members hanging out in corners dancing against each other. Rocking/Uprocking became a competitive dance that caught on very quickly.


and there was no DJ bringing the dancing together, kool DJ dee explained that the djs in brooklyn and queens were not playing breakbeats

dj's everywhere played breakbeats. For example


Some of the records that Flowers was known for playing include “Space Age” by the Jimmy Castor Bunch, “Sunnin’ And Funnin’ by MFSB, “Somebody’s Gotta Go” by Mike and Bill. “Touch and Go” by Ecstasy, Passion and Pain, “Changes” by Vernon Burch and “Messin’ With My Mind” by Labelle. Another favorite of his was the rock group Babe Ruth’s “The Mexican” (which would later become a hip hop staple as a breakbeat record and sample). He would mix that with James Brown material, and he was also known to on occasion, use three turntables simultaneously. (He would combine Chic’s “Good Times,” MFSB’s “Love Is The Message,” and Vaughan Mason and Crew’s “Bounce Skate Roll Bounce” for example.)

RAPAMANIA: GRANDMASTER FLOWERS AND THE MOBILE DJ MOVEMENT by Steven Stancell

Troy- I am surprised to hear that. O.K. I am going to throw out some names give me some feedback on them any way you like or as long as you like. First up Grand Master Flowers. Now what I have on Flowers is he darkened the labels on his records. Flowers also made you expand your music after you heard him play James Brown and Babe Ruth together.

Plummer- Oh yeah I thought that was cool. Flowers was different kind of mixer. You go into the gay clubs and they use to play a lot of hustle type dance music. They also played with the music with the highs and lows and mix with the sound effects and stuff. But they would not pull out the Funk, or they would not go into rock. Flowers was sort of like a Jimmy Hendrix he would do everything and you were always learning from him. But the thing about him is he played these games, he would darken his records and stuff. A lot of times we knew what it was and if we didn’t we would make it our business to find out. But it wasn’t a cut throat type of thing. He and I had a pretty good relationship, we didn’t ever sour our relationship. People would talk junk but we knew it was just that, junk. But you know between myself, Flowers, Maboya and Pete D.j. Jones you heard our names on the radio more than anyone else.

Troy- Alright tell me about that James Brown and Babe Ruth mix by Flowers.
djplummer078.jpg
Plummer- Yeah when Flowers played that I didn’t know who Babe Ruth and The Mexican jam was and so when I heard this high shrill voice and with this Spanish sort of sounding instruments in the back and I thought this was cool because it just blended so nicely and only Flowers would do something like that, at least at that time. Later on everybody else started doing stuff like that as well. So Flowers helped me because then I would play J Geils Band (Give It To Me), mix that into one of my records because it really had a great danceable break in it. I remember Loggins and Messina (Pathway to Glory) with an equally danceable break…I came from an R&B WBLS kind of back ground so I wasn’t really that hip to rock. Although I liked Jimi Hendrix I wouldn’t say I was a big Jimi Hendrix fan.

Old School Hip Hop Interviews - DJ Plummer | OldSchoolHipHop.Com

and

"We spun breaks back then too", Pete Jones says, "I played "Do it anyway you wanna," 'Scorpio', 'Bongo Rock', BT Express, Crown Heights Affair, Kool and the Gang, we played all of that stuff - and we'd keep the break going too. I played it all, disco, it didn't matter, there was no hip-hop per se back then, except for the parts we made up by spinning it over and over again."
There have been so many stories written about hip-hop's early days that have not reported on the guys that spun in Manhattan and Brooklyn in the early and mid '70's, that many crucial deejays of that time feel left out.
"Kool Herc and guys like that didn't have a big reputation back then", explains Jones, "they were in the Bronx - we, meaning guys like myself and Flowers, we played everywhere, so we were known. Their crowd was anywhere between 4 to 70. Mine was 18-22. They played in parks - where anybody could go, no matter how old you are you could go to a park. We played in clubs."
With a sense of urgency Mr. Jones says, "I have to clear something up, many people think that we played disco - that's not true. There were two things happening in black music at that time: there was the "Hustle" type music being played - which was stuff like Van McCoy's "Do the Hustle" - I couldn't stand that record. And then there were the funky type records that mixed the Blues and jazz with Latin percussion that would later be called funk. Well, hip-hop emerged from that."
He places special emphasis on the word 'emerged'. He says that because "If you know anything about the history of music, you know, no one person created anything, it 'emerges' from different things.


RAPAMANIA: KOOL HERC VS PETE DJ JONES By Mark Skillz

Kool D's point is that those other's dj's didn't only play funk/breaks they also played alot of hustle disco music



nobody is claiming that herc started rapping

people (the books and written articles) since the 80's have been saying that herc started rapping which is why they kept trying to link it to jamaica:russ:...they even tried to make Coka La Rock a jamaican when he's afroamerican from north carolina:lolbron:



ok good, so now we see part of the problem, we are using different vocabulary, so when you ask who started hip hop, in your mind that equates to who started rap music....:ohhh: and kool herc wasnt rapping so therefore he cant be credited with hip hop.....ok:snoop:

that's a big factor my dude. Most people when they think of hiphop, they think of the rapper before any other element.


Fact: the first rappers wasnt from da Bronx... they was Pimps down south



now you have the right to those points of view, but there are very few people would agree with your premises, the notion of equating hip hop with rap because rap is the biggest elements is totally fuking nuts if you are a true hip hop head

see above

but i will stand by what ive said, hip hop was started by african americans in the projects in the bronx, those videos you posted are evidence of that

and from what ive read and and understand the breakbeat and the bboy is the defining characteristics of hip hop because they are distinctive and rap came after

hiphop from a mucal POV = the music = breakbeats = funk + rapping

rapping is before bboying







so anybody that was djing in the 70s but was not doing it at gay clubs was hip hop?

no....the ones that were djing and had the rapping mc's were the ones that were hiphop
 

IllmaticDelta

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Nothing about the way Kool Herc talks is Southern gz. You posted a video of a Jamaican speaking wit a Jamaican NYC accent.

herc has a southern tinged west indian accent just like haitian jack


Shouldn’t be too hard to show me some early Bronx hip hop acts that rapped with Southern accents then, right?

aframs in NY have upper south tinged, NY accents
 

BlackPrint

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herc has a southern tinged west indian accent just like haitian jack




aframs in NY have upper south tinged, NY accents

Gotcha, so Herc, Black people in 1970 and Haitian Jack, who all speak wildly different, all have the same accent (since apparently NYers speak with southern accents).

Learn something new everyday man.
 

theworldismine13

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dude, I already covered how mario, kool d, pete dj jones, hollywood and flowers impacted hiphop. I specifally named those dj's, not any other ones

breh i just posted the video where cholly rock broke it down in clear precise language why the djs in other boroughs were not hip hop, mario and kool D get the props, thats where it stops





that's all that needed to be said:hubie:

no doubt, hip hop is not caribbean, thats silly, this or that person having caribbean parents is tangential information and should only be brought up in hip hop trivial pursuit

but you are using an awful and historically inaccurate strategy to make your point, you are trying to take the crown from the bronx, which is equally as silly, hip hop started in the projects of the bronx, period


dude I just explained why hiphop was around before herc in the previous posts

i dont think you have a proper definition of hip hop, you are equating hip hop to rap music, which is something that people that are not hip hop do, the only people that have a legit claim that there were before herc is mario and kool dee

I already touched on this...the people who were there vouch that he was hiphop and before herc

yeah they vouch for mario and kool dee..............and thats about it, nobody outside of the bronx has any legit claim to starting hip hop

no, rapping predates bboys. The music was the first thing that started it combined with rapping dj's. Rapping on came last in the herc scene.


true but their point is that herc's claims of starting hiphop at his sisters party in 73 is false for the reasons already stated

well part of that is ignorance such as yours of equating hip hop with rap music, so when they read a sentence saying hip hop started with kool herc in their minds they read 'rap music started with kool herc'

any real hip hop head knows rapping came last, in all those videos where old heads from the bronx and black spades members saying they started hip hop, they are not saying they started rap music, they are saying they started the culture of hip hop, it doesnt make any sense to say rap predates the bboy in terms of hip hop culture, thats nonsensical

what happened at his sisters party is debatable, what isnt debatable is that kool herc was the leader, for lack of a better term, for the bboys, he was the DJ that focused on the breakbeat for the bboys...which is i think (im speculating) part of the reason why mario and kool dee dont get the credit, i think they didnt focus on the breakbeat and bboying the way herc did


he said that but you gotta connect the dots. Everything their describing about spade dancing is exactly what the brooklyn was and we know other areas pucked up on the rocking dance

the bboying was when cats started getting on the floor, that is why the bboys where different then the other boroughs

and again, who was their DJ? what was the DJ that was catering to them?


dj's everywhere played breakbeats. For example

vocab alert: mixing isnt playing the breakbeat

the breakbeat, as kool d described it in the video YOU posted, is when the DJ said fuk the song, we are just playing the snippet and loop it over and over again....and they were doing this so the bboys could get down....thats how hip hop culture started, that is what made it distinct from anything going on any boroughs and made kool herc different than other DJs


RAPAMANIA: KOOL HERC VS PETE DJ JONES By Mark Skillz

Kool D's point is that those other's dj's didn't only play funk/breaks they also played alot of hustle disco music

yeah and? where were the bboys?



people (the books and written articles) since the 80's have been saying that herc started rapping which is why they kept trying to link it to jamaica:russ:...they even tried to make Coka La Rock a jamaican when he's afroamerican from north carolina:lolbron:

that's a big factor my dude. Most people when they think of hiphop, they think of the rapper before any other element.


Fact: the first rappers wasnt from da Bronx... they was Pimps down south

see above

rap is not hip hop, rap is an element of hip hop culture, people that dont understand that shouldnt even be allowed to post on this board, but i digress



hiphop from a mucal POV = the music = breakbeats = funk + rapping

hmmm no

here is a better overall definition of hip hop

TRUE HIP HOP IS A TERM THAT DESCRIBES THE INDEPENDENT COLLECTIVE CONSCIOUSNESS OF A SPECIFIC GROUP OF INNER-CITY PEOPLE. EVER GROWING, IT IS COMMONLY EXPRESSED THROUGH SUCH ELEMENTS AS: BREAKIN’, EMCEEIN’, GRAFITI ART, DEE JAYIN’ BEATBOXIN’, STREET FASHION, STREET LANGUAGE, STREET KNOWLEDGE AND STREET ENTREPRENEURIALISM

rapping is before bboying

no, the breakbeat and the bboy came first in hip hop CULTURE, you are misinformed about hip hop CULTURE
 

Big Daddy

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Edit- fukk it I’m going to be nice in y’all Lil circle
 
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