A Song of Ice & Fire by George R.R. Martin: Book Discussion Thread

[O.Red]

I don't think the issue is Meereen. Martin claimed that he solved the issue in ADWD by adding Barristan as a POV. I think the problem is he has too many characters and his writing has gotten significantly more ponderous and bogged down by lore building over narrative. He's probably sitting on a massive amount of pages for TWOW without the plot moving towards a climax that sets up the final book. Perfect example: the Arianna sample chapters. Two chapters of her traveling to meet Connington and "Aegon." She finally arrives at the end of the second chapter only to learn she can't meet Aegon because a battle is about to begin. In the first three books travel typically meant one chapter. There's no reason for her to potentially have three chapters before getting to actually talk to the characters she set out to meet. Then when you consider the battle was supposed to be in ADWD...we could be talking about 200 pages of TWOW before this battle happens. That's just insane to me.

I think Mereen is just used as a catchall term. It's more than that

There's Davos having to find Rickon, Brienne and Stoneheart/Brotherhood, Stannis being trapped by Ramsay's army, Griff, Jon being dead, reviving and getting to Winterfell however he does and on and on

Then there's Euron the show obviously handles Euron the way they do() but the books strongly allude to Euron being a major player in coming events. I personally but truly believe Euron has as much to do with the destruction of King's Landing as Dany. At the very least the entire story, from it's inception, is communicating that magic and monsters are coming back to the West, and a lot of destruction will result from it. I can almost guarantee that Euron is a major player in the future of the books story

So yea the nikka put too much on his plate I think the elements of future events, based on how they're set up, are but it seems obvious it'll take more than two more books to cover it all, and grrm knows it

George must've been geeked up when he wrote Feast because he just casually introduced enough characters and plot elements for 6 more books and thought nothing of it this is what fukked everything up for him

 

[Piff Perkins]

They fukked Rhaynera up too. The season opened with her wanting Aemond’s head for killing her son but then she spends the rest of the season trying not to go to war. So they stole her crown, the news of which sent her into premature labor killing her baby, killed her son, then killed Rhaenys and she still wanted to try to talk this shyt out.

I never paid attention before but being in that freefolk subreddit I see how much HOTD co-writer Sara Hess is a Rhae stan and the show suffers for it.

Exactly, it trivialized the first season's finale and created a very confusing narrative. Not just Rhae but Alicent too. I get it, dragons are essentially nuclear weapons and nobody goes to war with nukes without exhausting diplomatic options. But any logical call for restraint was ended when the heir to the king was brutally murdered. Instead it just seemed like war was delayed due to budget constraints. Honestly the whole thing felt like a mess due to shyt that the showrunner likely had little control over. It's been confirmed that scenes were cut and butchered to get that ending.

If that shyt ended with Rhae taking KL, sitting on the Iron Throne, and being crowned while Aegon was carted out of the city...people would STILL be talking about the show lol. It would be a celebration, fukkery, antics, the perfect marketing/promotion tool and would truly bring back those Game Of Thrones twitter vibes. Instead I saw a lot of people saying they were done with the show. HBO fukked this up and Martin is way too focused on minor book changes to see the real issue. The showrunner isn't good and it really seems like HBO/Max/Warner are looking for a way out. I don't think any of the other shows in development will air, besides Dunk & Egg. The rest of that shyt is getting cancelled, bet on it.

 

[Piff Perkins]

I think Mereen is just used as a catchall term. It's more than that

There's Davos having to find Rickon, Brienne and Stoneheart/Brotherhood, Stannis being trapped by Ramsay's army, Griff, Jon being dead, reviving and getting to Winterfell however he does and on and on

Then there's Euron the show obviously handles Euron the way they do() but the books strongly allude to Euron being a major player in coming events. I personally but truly believe Euron has as much to do with the destruction of King's Landing as Dany. At the very least the entire story, from it's inception, is communicating that magic and monsters are coming back to the West, and a lot of destruction will result from it. I can almost guarantee that Euron is a major player in the future of the books story

So yea the nikka put too much on his plate I think the elements of future events, based on how they're set up, are but it seems obvious it'll take more than two more books to cover it all, and grrm knows it

George must've been geeked up when he wrote Feast because he just casually introduced enough characters and plot elements for 6 more books and thought nothing of it this is what fukked everything up for him

I think all the plots would have been fine if he continued with the pacing we saw in the first three books. His chapters have progressively gotten longer with each book but by AFFC/ADWD the difference was more consequential and led to him simply running out of space in my opinion. Think about how many Tyrion chapters in ADWD don't really end with any progression of his plot. Or how repetitive some of Dany's ADWD chapters are. Or the slow, plodding pace of Jon's story. Multiple plotlines where someone is just traveling (Brienne, Tyrion) or contemplating action (Quentyn, Jon) all while heavily exploring lore. I'm not shytting on the books, I love AFFC and ADWD. I just think they doomed the series and Martin has spent over a decade contemplating how he's going to admit that he can't finish this in 7 books.

 

[O.Red]

I think all the plots would have been fine if he continued with the pacing we saw in the first three books. His chapters have progressively gotten longer with each book but by AFFC/ADWD the difference was more consequential and led to him simply running out of space in my opinion. Think about how many Tyrion chapters in ADWD don't really end with any progression of his plot. Or how repetitive some of Dany's ADWD chapters are. Or the slow, plodding pace of Jon's story. Multiple plotlines where someone is just traveling (Brienne, Tyrion) or contemplating action (Quentyn, Jon) all while heavily exploring lore. I'm not shytting on the books, I love AFFC and ADWD. I just think they doomed the series and Martin has spent over a decade contemplating how he's going to admit that he can't finish this in 7 books.

Yea I mostly agree

I've grown to love Feast a lot but you can see the beginning of some issues. I think it's great when you get into the newer characters, and the Cersei chapters are but yea there's a lot of "traveling"

By the time we get to Dance yes you see George beginning to become a caricature of himself. I like where's Tyrion's story is headed, with him facing the fact that he's a bad person, but the dialogue itself don't hit like earlier books

But yea if I know George packed too much info in the last two books and there's no way it can be solved in two more, I KNOW he knows

 

[jay211]

George is 75 years old, and says there's 2 more books He's not finishing the books. He's gonna enjoy his money and life. And I'm not mad at him.

 

[Inferno]

George needs to stop stressing over shows he has zero control over and write the damn books

 

[King_Kamala61]

George needs to stop stressing over shows he has zero control over and write the damn books

He won't because it's his art...but when you sign that contract ..it ain't yours no more..you share her

 

[General Mills]

George is 75 years old, and says there's 2 more books He's not finishing the books. He's gonna enjoy his money and life. And I'm not mad at him.

He is cooked. We are never getting the final books

I have finally resigned myself to that fact

I have read the books twice over. It’s been years since I did that. Might do it one more time for old times sake

 

[Diunx]

Dude should be put on suicide watch.

 

[Piff Perkins]

Pretty good discussion on the blog post, aftermath, and what comes next. Including a very interesting point I never thought of: George may realize THIS is his legacy. He might realize he's never finishing the books and whatever his legacy becomes will revolve around a series of shows HBO runs that taints everything. Then again whose fault is this? He handpicked this showrunner and developed it with him, while simutaneously taking time away from TWOW. While somehow not understanding that every modern showrunner who adapts something is mainly focused on telling a story THEY want to tell, not the story of the source material. This was inevitable. I appreciate how faithful the show is to the general "feel" of Martin's work but the narrative and storytelling changes are often horrible.

What are the odds that TWOW is out before A Night Of The Seven Kingdoms S1, or HOTD S3? I'd say very low. The fact that the butchery of GoT didn't compel him to get the real/book version out ASAP told me that he's cooked. I'm sure TWOW will come out but after that...it's probably over.

 

[Cheesy]

I'm sure TWOW will come out but after that...it's probably over.

I seriously doubt it'll come out before his death. After he dies they probably find like three or four different manuscripts for the entire book. I guess he rewrote it a few times at least. Then they'll have to hire someone else to piece it together and finish it, if his estate allows.

 

[Diunx]

Pretty good discussion on the blog post, aftermath, and what comes next. Including a very interesting point I never thought of: George may realize THIS is his legacy. He might realize he's never finishing the books and whatever his legacy becomes will revolve around a series of shows HBO runs that taints everything. Then again whose fault is this? He handpicked this showrunner and developed it with him, while simutaneously taking time away from TWOW. While somehow not understanding that every modern showrunner who adapts something is mainly focused on telling a story THEY want to tell, not the story of the source material. This was inevitable. I appreciate how faithful the show is to the general "feel" of Martin's work but the narrative and storytelling changes are often horrible.

What are the odds that TWOW is out before A Night Of The Seven Kingdoms S1, or HOTD S3? I'd say very low. The fact that the butchery of GoT didn't compel him to get the real/book version out ASAP told me that he's cooked. I'm sure TWOW will come out but after that...it's probably over.

Tbf the original showrunner left and this one promised one thing but then wrote another.

 

[The Prince of All Saiyans]

George is 75 years old, and says there's 2 more books He's not finishing the books. He's gonna enjoy his money and life. And I'm not mad at him.

scust