A comprehensive guide to the origin/roots of HipHop's elements (all verified facts w/ OG interviews)
- Thread starter IllmaticDelta
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IllmaticDelta
Veteran
partially...James Brown isn't/wasn't the first rapper (syncopated rhyming to a beat) but he is HipHop's MUSICAL father via Funk aka Breakbeats
K.O.N.Y
Superstar
Not sure if this was covered but simply,
Did spoken word come from rap
Or did rap branch from spoken word
Or did they both simply have a common ancestor
@IllmaticDelta
Did spoken word come from rap
Or did rap branch from spoken word
Or did they both simply have a common ancestor
@IllmaticDelta
IllmaticDelta
Veteran
Spoken word as a movement is before Rap(ping) as a movement but the Afram traditions that lead to modern rap (jive talking, dozens, toasts etc..) are older than the first established traditions of a Spoken word movement.
this tradition
is older than this tradition
but Afram beat poets/jazzoetry laid the foundation to modern spoken word that you see in slam poetry and obviously, is a stream/ancestor of Rap as a movement
Spoken word as a movement is before Rap(ping) as a movement but the Afram traditions that lead to modern rap (jive talking, dozens, toasts etc..) are older than the first established traditions of a Spoken word movement.
this tradition
is older than this tradition
but Afram beat poets/jazzoetry laid the foundation to modern spoken word that you see in slam poetry and obviously, is a stream/ancestor of Rap as a movement
All facts, spoken words and its elements from cadence, delivery and emphasis of a syllable , line, metaphor all derive from such element
A spoken word contest is no diff than a rap performance one minus production/beat
IllmaticDelta
Veteran
Spoken word contest is more like Rap-freestyle battle in its delivery/cadence
...
vs
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Spoken word still sounds like Spoken even if it's on a HipHop beat, but Rapping flows differently because of the syncopation. Compare the last Poets and Common over the same beat
or J-ivy vs Kanye and Jay on this track
IllmaticDelta
Veteran
related thread I made years ago
this smooth talk style
was an influence on Dj Hollywood and would give way to that "love rap" style
Soul/R&B songs with spoken word/monologue parts
this smooth talk style
was an influence on Dj Hollywood and would give way to that "love rap" style
KnowledgeOfSelf17
All Star
subs
IllmaticDelta
Veteran
Related to HipHop production. Repost:
Sampling existed before HipHop:
In European classical, folk, hymns etc...they would do a simple type of sampling by putting new lyrics to old melodies
vs
Contrafactum
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whereas those musicians didn't do anything to alter what they sampled "musically", Jazz heads added complexity to this
and what they sampled from previous songs was only a jump-off point to entirely new pieces of music
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the similarities with the Jazz (Bebop) practice and later hiphop sampling has been noted
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the differences between those forms of sampling and modern sampling as we know it was pioneered from HipHop production and its use of digital samplers and the way they used them
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HipHop pioneered the purely cut and paste style of previous recordings to make a collage of samples for a new musical piece
HipHop production via sampling is the audio version of
.
.
every musical style genre since the early to mid-1980s now uses HipHops sample-based production style
Sampling existed before HipHop:
In European classical, folk, hymns etc...they would do a simple type of sampling by putting new lyrics to old melodies
vs
Contrafactum
.
.
whereas those musicians didn't do anything to alter what they sampled "musically", Jazz heads added complexity to this
and what they sampled from previous songs was only a jump-off point to entirely new pieces of music
.
.
.
the similarities with the Jazz (Bebop) practice and later hiphop sampling has been noted
.
.
.
.
the differences between those forms of sampling and modern sampling as we know it was pioneered from HipHop production and its use of digital samplers and the way they used them
.
.
HipHop pioneered the purely cut and paste style of previous recordings to make a collage of samples for a new musical piece
HipHop production via sampling is the audio version of
.
.
every musical style genre since the early to mid-1980s now uses HipHops sample-based production style
Last edited:
IllmaticDelta
Veteran
@K.O.N.Y
this is why they made this video about Herc's hood in the West Bronx
his location made it easier for youth to witness him outside
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description of the South/East Bronx back then
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..
vs a description of the West Bronx
OG from Herc's hood/grew up with many of those pioneering hiphop og's, said about Herc's location:
"Herc was in a neutral location, that's how he got big because you couldn't just walk into other sections (of the bronx) because of the gang problem"
Complexion
ʇdᴉɹɔsǝɥʇdᴉlɟ
Push the pen. Publish the book.
The audience will listen.
The audience will listen.
IllmaticDelta
Veteran
to add to that
Spike Lee Co signs Fat Joe "Black People and Puerto Ricans created one of the great art forms ever! Together! In the bronx! Undisputed!"
Spike Lee Co signs Fat Joe "Black People and Puerto Ricans created one of the great art forms ever! Together! In the bronx! Undisputed!"
Honestly, this whole thing started when the fba/ados movement on Twitter happened and the platforms Tariq and Dr Umar started. There's a lot that goes into what classifies hip hop. The DJs,Graffiti, Rapping, Breakdancing then you get into what Grandmaster Flash contributed, DJ Kool herc etc...
www.thecoli.com
Repost:
@Uptown WaYo87 you're not gonna like this truth from REAL Rican Hiphop/bboy pioneers. I can't wait to see how you'll wiggle out of this ether
Batch and Trace 2 (they are cousins and Abby is the brother of Batch) are the first Rican bboys and are the ones that formed the first Rican bboy crew/organization, which later gave way to Crazy Legs and the Rock Steady Crew. This is what they said about the origns of bboying and when they got involved in the HipHop culture:
I posted this tidbit before where Batch acknowledged being introduced to bboying by a black kid named "Tee Tee Rock"
here is a video on it and these are his exact words on the origin:
"The first time I saw bboying, which yall now call Breakdancing, was in 1975 from Tee Tee Rock. He went to the ground (floor moves) after doing a 360 mid-air from an uprock position"
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Trace 2 said:
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Abby says:
SIR NORIN RAD:"Willie Will (legendary Puerto Rican B-Boy from Rockwell Association) told me about how we was introduced to that original Black B-Boy Style of dancing which you referred to as The Go Off in 1976 by a B-Boy called Chopper that was down with the Zulu Nation. What was the relationship between TBB and the Zulu Nation? Was there any kind of contact at all?"
ABY:"Again, I was younger. I was too young to even understand the difference between Black and Puerto Rican. But to my brothers...to the older guys there was a barrier....there was a line between Blacks and Latinos. I mean look at the gangs back then...the Black Spades were all black and then you had the Ghetto Brothers which were all Latinos....so there was a division at first. I remember the Zulu Kings only from late 1976/77 that's when we really got involved. That's also when Batch had his meeting with the Zulu Nation..1977. TBB and members of the Zulu Nation they used to have rumbles.....they would fight against each other. Whatever jam they went to they would rumble. If there was a jam and TBB was chilling there and all of a sudden some one threw hands Batch would summon TBB Joe's division who was known as the warlord division meaning thay handled all the rumbles or one on one fight make sure no one jumped in !! . One of the first black DJs that I ever met was Lay Lay. He was from Fun PM City Crew and they was all black but they was kool cause they were from the block.We never had problems in 129 Mapes Pool. Lay Lay would get cutting and we would start dancing !! Back then we danced more with the girls than against each other .. But when we heard "It's Just Begun" or Babe Ruth "Mexican" or "Bongo Rock"... forget about it! Floor rockers hit the flooooorrrrrrr,!!! Cypher set and battles was for respect not money .. You had to be there to truly understand and smell the air and feel the excitement when the cat you was battling burned you the last time and you been practicing all week long for the moment you let it all out on the concrete ... Damn miss em days ."
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The DJ they're talking about was a black guy from the Peacemakers gang (black spades connected) from post 1975 era
More context:
B-Boy Puppet Master (The Shaka Zulus):
SIR NORIN RAD:"From what I have heard huge parts of the Bronx were divided into different gang territories in the early 1970s and you told me you joined a gang called the Peacemakers. How did that come about?"
PUPPET MASTER:"That's true. 1971 I joined the Peacemakers. I was eleven so I was a Baby Peacemaker. You had the Baby Peacemakers, The Young Peacemakers...and the Peacemakers. From 1968 to 1973 it was all gang culture, you know?"
SIR NORIN RAD:"What was it that one had to do in order to join the Peacemakers?"
PUPPET MASTER:"Sometimes you had to go through the Apache Line. Sometimes you might have to fight a 1 on 1, a 2 on 1 or a 3 on 1. It depends on who the person was. If the person looked kinda shakey then they would tell him, "Do the Apache Line!" If the brother looked like he could hold his own it wasn't no Apache Line it was just, "Come on in!" With me it wasn't no Apache Line, I fought the vice president and the warlord and they let me in."
SIR NORIN RAD:"What did it mean to be a Peacemaker? Did you have to wear specific colors?"
PUPPET MASTER:"Yeah, we all wore colors. Ours was the peace sign on the back. When the Peacemakers first started in 1971 it was a peace sign and it may have the crossed swords or crossed 44s (guns) 'cause actually a peacemaker is a 44 pistol. A peacemaker, you know? So yeah, we had colors, a top to bottom rocker and our symbol was the peace sign."
SIR NORIN RAD:"How many divisions did the Peacemakers have back then?"
PUPPET MASTER:"We had altogether 36 divisions. We had Peacemakers in the Bronx. Marmion Ave & Tremont...that's where our club house was at......Lambert, Uptown....Gun Hill Road, Edenwald Projects. We als had Peacemakers in Harlem....Douglas Projects, 145th, 144th, 143rd, 142nd Street & Broadway all that was Peacemakers' turf (territory) back then."
SIR NORIN RAD:"Talking to Kusa from the Zulu Masters I heard that what actually got him into Breaking was watching the Black Spades doing their specific dance at Bronx River. Did the Peacemakers also have dancers among them? Would they dance at their club house or at parties? What did their dance look like?"
PUPPET MASTER:"Yes, there was dancing going on. We would have Peacemaker parties or sometimes even when the Black Spades gave a party we would come to their party. Or the Black Spades would come to a Peacemaker party. They were our allies. Yeah, they would be dancing and there would be the gestures, you understand, the waving of the hands. They might do a little spin, kick a leg out...it wasn't going on the floor at that time."
SIR NORIN RAD:"Did the Peacemakers also have an anthem? I was told that the anthem of the Black Spades was James Brown's "Soul Power". Whenever they would gather before a rumble they would listen to that song and chant, "Spade Power!" instead of "Soul Power!""
PUPPET MASTER:" Right, right. Ours was Funkadelics "Standing On The Verge Of Getting It On" and then we also had "Potential" (by Jimmy Castor). We would say,"Makers, maker, maker, maker, make" to the rhythm of the bass in the beginning of that song."
SIR NORIN RAD:"Do you recall a DJ by the name of Lay Lay who was down with the Fun City Crew? Many Puerto Rican B-Boys from such crews as The Bronx Boys or Rockwell Association told me that they went to his jams and that he was a Peacemaker once, too."
PUPPET MASTER:"Oh you're talking about Peacemaker Lay Lay. Peacemaker Lay Lay was the warlord of the Peacemakers. Peacemaker Lay Lay was an original. First of all I'd like to say,"May Allah be pleased with him!" because this brother passed away about three or four years ago. He was the warlord of the Peacemakers, the supreme warlord of the Peacemakers. Later on he formed Fun City. Fun City is an extension, like a subdivision of the Peacemakers. They were still Peacemakers, they just called it Fun City Crew. You understand? Like the Casanovas...most of the Casanovas were Black Spades. I know DJ Lay Lay very well, he used to play in the park over there..... 129 school yard by the pool."
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Batch talking about Dj Lay Lay, the Peacemakers gangg and the Fun City Crew (black hiphop dj/bboy crew/organization)
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In summary:
1. It further establishes that Ricans were nowhere to be found in HipHop's foundational years of 1970-1974
2. All the Ricans pioneers according to their OWN timelines, saw their first glimpses of HipHop in 1975 and then a few would join in around that time
3. The first bboys were black and they would end up teaching/influencing the first Rican bboys
4. Black bboys were going down to the floor when Rican bboys first saw them in 1975, so Crazy Legs is out here lying
5. Rican youth actively sought out Black Djs in parks around 1975 and later (after the gang truce), so they could hear the Black American "Funk" music that was alien to their Salsa based music they heard at home, so they could "bboy" to it
Trace 2 - "I love Salsa but you can't dance to it (bboy). We needed that Funk"
IllmaticDelta
Veteran
Some updates: