A comprehensive guide to the origin/roots of HipHop's elements (all verified facts w/ OG interviews)

[K.O.N.Y]

OK @IllmaticDelta

Can we breakdown why herc gets the "father of hip hop" accolade

From my perspective-

Every afram music genre tells a story. And that story heavily involves location-location-location

Basically taking roots afram musical traditions and funneling it through the culture of where we ended up

Nyc birthed hip hop because it had the best disco-funk dj infrastructure anywhere to be found

Then it had the intangible northeasterner urban factor(same as philly but philly lacked the same infrastructure). Basically a result of the children of the carolinas becoming distinctively "new yorkan" and urban

This is the world kool herc stepped into

It seems the difference between herc and other DJs at the time- was that he was the figurehead of this newfound youth movement that was blossoming in the Bronx. Seperate from what the disco DJs had

And that's why he gets the flowers

its not really about the first DJ in new york, but being the first DJ to spearhead this new movement

is this accurate

 

[IllmaticDelta]

OK @IllmaticDelta

Can we breakdown why herc gets the "father of hip hop" accolade

From my perspective-

Every afram music genre tells a story. And that story heavily involves location-location-location

Basically taking roots afram musical traditions and funneling it through the culture of where we ended up

Nyc birthed hip hop because it had the best disco-funk dj infrastructure anywhere to be found

this part is true

Then it had the intangible northeasterner urban factor(same as philly but philly lacked the same infrastructure). Basically a result of the children of the carolinas becoming distinctively "new yorkan" and urban

Philly lacked the club culture

This is the world kool herc stepped into

This, he did

It seems the difference between herc and other DJs at the time- was that he was the figurehead of this newfound youth movement that was blossoming in the Bronx. Seperate from what the disco DJs had

And that's why he gets the flowers

its not really about the first DJ in new york, but being the first DJ to spearhead this new movement

is this accurate

No, IMO it has more to do with his location (too dangerous to go into the south bronx or east bronx) and where people who weren't old enough to get into clubs, may have witnessed different figures outside in PARKS.


at 43:15 (talking about Bronx River and Baambatta.Zulu Nation), she hits on something I spoke on before about how you couldn't/wouldn't go to certain parts of the Bronx to see and experience early HipHop unless you had a "pass".....this is part of the reason Herc became so visible in the West Bronx because apparently, the gangs didn't have a stronghold there like did where Disco King Mario and Baam came from which was dominated by the Black Spades




I spoke on this before

repost

Kool Herc got over credited because younger teens (the people who would credit him later) who lived outside of his area (West Bronx) were too scared to go places like Bronxdale and Bronxriver or they were too young

this old head from herc's side of the Bronx talks about how he didn't know too much about brondxdale/soundview/bronx river, pioneers because those areas were OFF LIMITS if you were an out-of- towner/only traveled on the west side of the bronx; so he first only knew of Herc

Spoiler

Jazzy Jay who later became the DJ for Afrika Baambatta says that Bronxdale was forbidden territory

Spoiler

you couldn't go in there unless you had gang support

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.[/QUOTE]

 

[IllmaticDelta]

or as Dmite explains why even though he heard of Mario, he never saw him on his turf

Is it true that one had to know someone in Bronx River to enter and party unscathed?



That was the Bronx period. Anytime you dared to venture into another nikka Projects that’s on yo ass. You better be ready I’ll tell you that. Bronx River Projects was a very dangerous place. Not to be fukked wit. So yeah a lot a muthafukkas couldn’t just come up in Bronx River. Before the Zulu Nation it was all about Black Spades Spider and The Gestapo and The Bronx River Organization. I was Kool wit all that. They my brothers Shout Mr Biggs too.





I hear the name Disco King Mario a lot, but I never hear much other than that he had a massive system. Was he an actual DJ? Did he blend? scratch?



Unfortunately that’s the only part of Bronx history I never associated with, mind you it was for no other reason than I didn’t have to travel to the East Bronx to hear Hip Hop I was already in two hotbeds The South Bronx and The Westside those Cats came to us. But I do know he was well respected because you heard his name and knew who he was. Chuck City. I heard he gave Bambaataa his start but again I don’t do hearsay, It just helps to spread myth. And it also had to do with turf. I didn’t have no business in those projects

DYNAMITE - A BRONX TALE

 

[IllmaticDelta]

@K.O.N.Y

this is why they made this video about Herc's hood in the West Bronx




his location made it easier for youth to witness him outside


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description of the South/East Bronx back then

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vs a description of the West Bronx

 

[IllmaticDelta]

None of the people ive encountered on the ground level could articulate the kool herc origin story properly

nikkas is out here saying that herc was doing this all by himself. The Jamaica theory literally depends on that narrative lol

and that Coke La Rock was/is Jamaican because he was the one always cited as the First Mc of HipHop



You know how long it's been told that the first acknowledged MC of HipHop as far as the Herc/his crowd was concerned (Coka La Rock) was Jamaican by outsiders?

Im positive Herc knew that dude was a Southern rooted USA American but the books kept saying he was Jamaican and that he brought Jamaican Toasting to the states and created rap

from 2006

Coke La Rock's real name is G.S., I just spent over an hour interviewing him. I am Steve Hager, and I was the first journalist to write about hip hop, and, apparently, I just became the first person to do an in-depth interview with Coke La Rock. First, the info about being from Jamaica is total garbage, his parents are from North Carolina. I tried to clean this up because I am inducting Coke into the Counterculture Hall of Fame this November in Amsterdam, an event I created. I will post a youtube video tomorrow on my site, www.youtube.com/templedragon420, and you can hear Coke in his own voice dispell all the rumour and disinfo that has been spread about him. He never recorded a song, but he did lay down the foundation for hip hop lyrics, just like Kool Herc laid down the foundation for hip hop music. Please don't mess with my changes again. I am a professional journalist and have only posted these corrections because I care about the true history of hip hop. I know the real pioneers, and I reject all the lyineers who are spreading false stories about the early days of the culture. I tried three times to post the link to the page that verifies the changes I have made, but a bot keeps eliminating it:

Talk:Coke La Rock - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[chineebai]

amazing thread, just a vast amount of knowledge. I always wondered why kool herc was considered the founding father, now i know.

 

[IllmaticDelta]

Has coke ever addressed dj Hollywood or vice versa

Her goes some more insight from the herc & coke la rock/west bronx crowd + baambatta on Dj Hollywood


KID CREOLE from Furious 5 (west bronx)

JayQuan : Peace ; its an honor to speak to you , what year did you start Emceeing and who made you want to Emcee ?


Creole : It was around ' 75 , Mel was hangin' out with Flash & them - thats how I got associated with Flash.

We used to go to Kool Herc parties ; really anybody that had equipment we would go see them in the parks. Herc was one of the few Djs that had legitimate equipment and he would have inside parties and charge people . They didn't have a distinction between who was the Dj and who was the Emcee , because all the Djs Emceed . Pete Dj Jones and those cats had the Hank Span Disc Jockey voice. Timmy Tim , Clark Kent and Coke La Rock were three guys who were down with Herc . Tim & Clark Kent would say phrases like " on down till the A.M. " or " back & forth / forth & back " - just lil phrases , not full rhymes. They would say either nursery rhymes or stuff that the Last Poets had said. My sister Linda used to write poetry , so thats how we were introduced to it in general . Tim & Clark Kent would say it to the beat ; even though it wasn't that rhythmic. It was like " A taste of the pace with the bass in ya face". Because it was done in that pattern we wrote rhymes that were to that pattern. So for me it was Timmy Tim , Clark Kent , My Brother (Mele Mel) and my sister.


JQ : Im told that you and Mel were the first to split words between each other & go back & forth.


CR : Yeah , when we first started rhyming we wrote everything together , so it was a natural progression.


JQ : How about the " throw ya hands in the air " and all the call and response tactics ;

are you all responsible for that ?


CR : We weren't the first , but it was an evolution. Hollywood had mad crowd responses like "where's that place we work it out?" And the crowd responded "at the Alps (hotel) is where we work it out". We thought it was so fly . Cowboy really excelled at that kinda thing , lyrically he wasn't at the level of me & Mel , but he had no fear of asking the crowd to say this or do that.

 

[IllmaticDelta]

cont...

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From Markskillz,the HipHop historian

Ok, time to hype my own site. If you really want to get quotes on this subject ya need to check out the articles I've been writing for the last three years. I have covered this part of the story extensively the whole "disco side" of hip-hop thing. Go over to my site http://hiphop101a.blogspot.com and check it out for yourselves.



Some basics that I have uncovered: Sometime in the early 70's deejays in Manhattan (more than likely KC the Prince of Soul started this) started talking "slick stuff" on the mic. Not to the beat and not even rhyming but saying slick s--t that flowed together. check the Reggie Wells joint for elaboration on that. Hollywood told me in the beginning of his career he was using that style to intro records, and then it progressed. At the same time Coke La Rock was talking on the mic as well. From all accounts he was not rapping as we know it today. In fact, when you read my story "Once Upon A Time in the Boogie Down Bronx" you'll see Kool Herc's take on the rappin'.

I gotta add to this conversation what Pete Jones told me - and he told Jayquan the same thing too, no one person created anything, it all emerged from different things. Mike Barnes, I read somewhere that Tee Scott and Walter Gibbons used to mix breaks in their sets, is that true, did you witness that? Those dudes were some real fly spinners in their time and they were doing their thing in the mid 70's too.

The point I've been trying to make for years is that no one's contributions should be dismissed. I have debated Bambaataa, Caz and Toney Tone on this very issue many times. Kool Herc shut me down as soon as I mentioned Hollywood, but, it ain''t just a coincidence that the man is credited by many many many many people as being the father of rap. Whether you like his style of rhyming or his rhymes or not, the man has been credited by people for being the father of rap for three decades. And I gotta add, during the period before records he was known on the streets in every borough as the king of rap. Don't agree don't listen to me just ask around... people from outside of the Bronx will credit Wood day and night. In the Bronx - no, them dudes front on Wood like its a contact sport. For real.

When I first heard Afrika Bam talking about Wood in interviews he would be very dismissive of him and say that he played disco for that hustle type crowd , the bourgeois Black type crowd. He said that so many times and always said the words "disco" and "Hustle" in the same sentence so that a person reading it would think: white suit and open silk shirt and white folks doing the hustle...

Not true. And not one reporter back then asked him to clarify that statement.

When I interviewed Wood, I asked him, so did you play at Studio 54? He said 'Oh hell no. I played for the hustlers. You know the brothers who were about their money and dressin fly who came sharp to the party. You know the powder people.

Which is a Big difference! He was playing for Freddy Myers, Guy Fisher, Bats Ross, Pee Wee Kirkland and people like that. That ain't the Steve Rubell/Mark Benacke crowd, oh hell no! Them dudes were in the streets for real!

When I interviewed Kool Herc he told me that he and Coke used to play at spots that were kind of sort of like 'Speak-easies" he told me. It was an older crowd, they were more mellow, so he couldn't rock APACHE he played things like T Plays it Cool. He told me that's where Guy Fisher and Bats Ross and them dudes would check him out at. Later Fisher and ROss would check him out at Executive Playhouse and Hevalo as well. So you see, how the two scenes would overlap?

And it Flash, Theodore, Starsky, Pete Jones, Wood and others to played on the same bill together from time to time.

 

[K.O.N.Y]

Her goes some more insight from the herc & coke la rock/west bronx crowd + baambatta on Dj Hollywood


KID CREOLE from Furious 5 (west bronx)

Hollywood destroys the narrative

The deejay as it happens didn't need the mc. You could be both

its a creative agency that herc or no other "pioneer" had

 

[IllmaticDelta]

Hollywood destroys the narrative

The deejay as it happens didn't need the mc. You could be both

its a creative agency that herc or no other "pioneer" had

quite easily too...to add on to something I posted earlier in the thread

Dj Hollywood is the root of the "modern mc" in contrast to the "not quite right syncopation" of early MC'ing from the likes of KC The Prince Of Soul. Hollywood was the first one totally on beat, dropping verses all while being/doing this with 2 turntables and a mic. This style, the first rapping style is called "Disco Rap" and could be heard in the likes of Sugar Hill Gang, Doug E Fresh, Keith Cowboy, Busy Bee and Luv Bug Starski.


The 2 people responsible for taking that style and eschewing some of that "radio announcer" delivery was Melle Mel and Caz. Melle Mel was the more prolific one of the two so he's the more revered MC in the context of the post-Disco rap style.

From Lil Rodney C (a rapper from Funk 4 + 1 and Double Trouble)





his thoughts on where rapping started

JQ : So who was the first person you ever saw Emcee...and who influenced you ?

LRC : The first person I ever saw Emcee was Keith Cowboy . He was a crowd motivator....he was mostly doin chants . The person that made me say that I can do this is Melle Mel....he really influenced me . Kid Creole was an early Emcee too . Hollywood and Starski and all those cats will tell you that they were first . They are right to an extent , but there were two classes of Hip Hop at the time...Disco & then the hard B Boys that used breakbeats . Hollywood and them were Disco Djs. Also Mel & Creole were the first Emcees to do back & forth rhyming.

FUNKY 4 / DOUBLE TROUBLE

I've already pointed out the faulty reasoning in the Disco vs Breakbeats argument, what these guys are actually arguing about is an age, attire, and dancing aesthetic. Sha Rock from his group, already explained that they were rapping over Disco beats.

 

[IllmaticDelta]

@K.O.N.Y

this is why they made this video about Herc's hood in the West Bronx




his location made it easier for youth to witness him outside


.
.
description of the South/East Bronx back then

.
..
vs a description of the West Bronx

No, IMO it has more to do with his location (too dangerous to go into the south bronx or east bronx) and where people who weren't old enough to get into clubs, may have witnessed different figures outside in PARKS.


at 43:15 (talking about Bronx River and Baambatta.Zulu Nation), she hits on something I spoke on before about how you couldn't/wouldn't go to certain parts of the Bronx to see and experience early HipHop unless you had a "pass".....this is part of the reason Herc became so visible in the West Bronx because apparently, the gangs didn't have a stronghold there like did where Disco King Mario and Baam came from which was dominated by the Black Spades

@K.O.N.Y

to add this point:

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take note of Herc's area vs where all the gangs were located

 

[K.O.N.Y]

so lets breakdown the absolute early instances of rapping.

They come from early gospel hymns that go back to the 1800's right?

And from there it basically floated around the culture taking various forms-

scatting,cab calloway,jive talking,the dozens,hustlers convention,pigmeat,dolemite

till it got to new york in the proto form of rhyming

@IllmaticDelta

 

[IllmaticDelta]

so lets breakdown the absolute early instances of rapping.

They come from early gospel hymns that go back to the 1800's right?

Not so much hymns, but more of the early Black preaching style that came to be known as "Whooping"

And from there it basically floated around the culture taking various forms-

scatting,cab calloway,jive talking,the dozens,hustlers convention,pigmeat,dolemite

black preaching, dozens, toasts etc...all existed during slavery times

These practices were part of everyday informal, Afram life

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which would feed into what became Jazz/blues slang/verbal traditions/scat singing which all fed into the proto-rap styles of people like Pigmeat Markam and similar rhyming comedians

till it got to new york in the proto form of rhyming

These traditions flourished any place ADOS existed; the difference was, that NYC black djs took these styles from OG Rhythm and Blues DJs and applied/updated them to/for the Disco era. So Jocko Henderson (OG R&B and Jazz)--> Hank Spann (Soul music)-----> KC Prince of Soul (what became the early Disco scene)-----> Dj Hollywood (fully formed style that would be called Disco rap)

 

[IllmaticDelta]

Not so much hymns, but more of the early Black preaching style that came to be known as "Whooping"

@K.O.N.Y

 

[K.O.N.Y]

"These traditions flourished any place ADOS existed; the difference was, that NYC black djs took these styles from OG Rhythm and Blues DJs and applied/updated them to/for the Disco era. So Jocko Henderson (OG R&B and Jazz)--> Hank Spann (Soul music)-----> KC Prince of Soul (what became the early Disco scene)-----> Dj Hollywood (fully formed style that would be called Disco rap)"

There you have it

the idea of DJs and rappers having these stylized names is direct turnover from Jazz culture?

the Thelonius monks,count basies dizzy gillespie etc