A Blown Knee & Flat Tires-Another NY Pothole Year: 17-18 Knicks Season Thread

[storyteller]

Nowhere in my post did I say he shouldn't get minutes. I don't think anything about him warrants any outrage from fans when he doesn't. Just my opinion. This season is a wash and I barely watch NY anymore. I don't give a fukk who they play

The outrage isn't based on Dotson in a vacuum, that's a false premise. People are mad that there has been a pattern forming of misuse of young players or simply not using them at all. As these players aren't playing we can't actually say what their potential is but we do know that other franchises are watching and hoping to grab these guys cheap so that they can do their own evaluations. The anger isn't about Dotson alone. It's about the fact that we've seen this inconsistency with every young player not named Mudiay; Dotson is just the most recent example. Plus if you haven't been watching recently, you're missing part of the context. The vets have been playing like they dgaf on defense and getting blown out in third quarters off of that listlessness recently...worse than earlier in the season. The young cats are struggling but at least playing hard and it's visible in guys like Dotson and Williams who may not project as more than 3 and D players; but at least their TRYING. The lack of accountability during a point of the year when we're supposed to be evaluating young guys is the real reason for outrage, minimizing it to people overvaluing Dotson is missing the forest for the trees.

 

[storyteller]

No no no. Y'all need to stop being so optimistic, glass have full with this management. These are blatant fukk ups. McDermott was expiring and I rather take my chances with the 2nd round pick.

Nothing will change with Mudiay in a year and a half. We already had Trey Burke who was getting buckets at an elite level and Frank who is supposed to be the PG of the damn future. It makes zero sense to trade for Mudiay, that boy has a long way to go a lot wrong with him weak shooter, turnover prone, weak defender, poor feel for the position. We're talking about a guy who routinely logs more TO's than FG's made and sucks at defending the P&R despite + length. He is consistently talked about as one of the worst players at his position. Most teams wouldn't touch him but we just had to do it and create that log jam at PG for no damn reason.

I just think the math changes when we acknowledge that Hornacek has refused to trust Frank as a PG. When you add that and consider wins matter less than youth right now, bringing in Mudiay doesn't look as bad.
Our goal is to rebuild and wins don't matter, what matters is getting in as much youth as possible and figuring out which of those guys factors into the future so we can sign them long term at decent prices. I think everyone in the thread is on a similar page to this school of thought. So let's start with this goal and if you disagree let me know because that'd change the outlook on all of this. ;

A second rounder to bring in a former lottery pick who is 21 (at the time of trade, he just turned 22) would qualify as a low-risk addition of youth. What is the likelihood of a second rounder becoming a useful player? Not great, most wash out quickly. What is the likelihood of Mudiay becoming a useful player? Not great, he'll probably end up walking. The difference is probably in his upside. As unlikely as it is that he works out; he's a bulky 6'5 PG with the explosiveness to get inside and strength to power through opposing points who are generally smaller than him.
The conceit here is that he probably won't work out, but it's not like that second round pick has a much better chance if any; and it's more likely that Mudiay's ceiling is higher than the typical second round pick. It's not often things click for a player when he looks so lost but sometimes it does (ie: Kris Dunn this season).

So the main issue with this trade is the logjam imo. But that could have been averted as easily as dumping Jarrett Jack. Hornacek was planning on using Frank off-guard more often anyway which left the bulk of minutes to Jack and Burke. Cut jack, bring in Mudiay for a second rounder and you've got two PG's 25 and under plus 19 year old Frank playing the combo role. You could get minutes for all three comfortably. The only complication to the matter is Hornacek. He'd rather play the vets which is the only thing exacerbating these log jams. You can shift that to management though because Hornacek bows to authority (Phil forced him to use the triangle). Management also could have cut Jack and traded Lee to take away Hornacek's safety blankets. The fact that they didn't do these things is the issue. The trade itself wasn't the problem, it's everything they've done since imo.

 

[NY's #1 Draft Pick]

Yeah I forgot about Shump

His rookie year I had hopes he could develop into a 14ppg scorer but when he hurt his knee that was a wrap.

Been seeing your last few posts.
What the fukk is wrong with running a young squad? What's wrong with trying to develop young players ? Maybe it's the coaching staff and the front office that hasn't done their jobs to develop these players.

You mention Trevor Ariza but fail to realize he was developed in a proper way and has gone on to have a successful career. Maybe if you give some of your young boys a chance and develop them properly they'll show u something but some y'all are ready to drop em in less than a season of they don't become close to all star status

 

[K-ZOE]

Been seeing your last few posts.
What the fukk is wrong with running a young squad? What's wrong with trying to develop young players ? Maybe it's the coaching staff and the front office that hasn't done their jobs to develop these players.

You mention Trevor Ariza but fail to realize he was developed in a proper way and has gone on to have a successful career. Maybe if you give some of your young boys a chance and develop them properly they'll show u something but some y'all are ready to drop em in less than a season of they don't become close to all star status

You been seeing my last few posts now you should try reading them. I never said anything was wrong with running a young squad or developing young players. I've been speaking to the fact that yall jock young players on the Knicks but historically when they move on they never amount to shyt. Most of em. Ariza is the lone exception I can think of. And like I said, dudes said he was gonna be a star. He is not a star. And which team are you giving credit for his "development"? The brother has bounced around a lil bit. Sometimes it's a case of a player figuring out the NBA game. Some do it later than sooner. @storyteller asked me about Dotson specifically. When I answered he switched the argument to the Knicks staffs misuse and mishandling of rooks. But that's cool, I ain't trippin off that.

Another fact lost on some of you cats, is we only see these dudes in games. Knicks coaches and execs have the benefit of seeing them in practice as well. It ever occur that Dotson hasn't shown shyt in practice to warrant playing time? CLEARLY Frank has demonstrated tendencies that got them trading for PG's and calling up them up from the G-league. Playing time is earned in practice. If these dudes are getting lit up by the likes of Courtney Lee and Jack in practice...... It is what it is.

And if you gonna quote me stay on topic. If I didn't say playing and developing young players was bad, please don't argue that shyt with me.

 

[NY's #1 Draft Pick]

You been seeing my last few posts now you should try reading them. I never said anything was wrong with running a young squad or developing young players. I've been speaking to the fact that yall jock young players on the Knicks but historically when they move on they never amount to shyt. Most of em. Ariza is the lone exception I can think of. And like I said, dudes said he was gonna be a star. He is not a star. And which team are you giving credit for his "development"? The brother has bounced around a lil bit. Sometimes it's a case of a player figuring out the NBA game. Some do it later than sooner. @storyteller asked me about Dotson specifically. When I answered he switched the argument to the Knicks staffs misuse and mishandling of rooks. But that's cool, I ain't trippin off that.

Another fact lost on some of you cats, is we only see these dudes in games. Knicks coaches and execs have the benefit of seeing them in practice as well. It ever occur that Dotson hasn't shown shyt in practice to warrant playing time? CLEARLY Frank has demonstrated tendencies that got them trading for PG's and calling up them up from the G-league. Playing time is earned in practice. If these dudes are getting lit up by the likes of Courtney Lee and Jack in practice...... It is what it is.

And if you gonna quote me stay on topic. If I didn't say playing and developing young players was bad, please don't argue that shyt with me.

Well I guess we should trust the Knicks coaching staff then since they've been doing such a fine job for years trade for mudiay when you got a rookie in Frank and another guard that's showed out in Burke brehs

We can see on the court that Jack is a piece of shyt and Frank should take all his minutes

 

[K-ZOE]

Well I guess we should trust the Knicks coaching staff then since they've been doing such a fine job for years trade for mudiay when you got a rookie in Frank and another guard that's showed out in Burke brehs

We can see on the court that Jack is a piece of shyt and Frank should take all his minutes

There's been so much turnover in Knick management the last 20 years, you can't really find one coaching staff to blame. The constant has been the owner. Right now he has Perry and Mills running the show. I'm gonna be patient and see what they do. Hopefully they hire a coach and let him develop his own staff from top to bottom. I.E. with no more Herb Williams/Kurt Rambis type plants on the staff. Your top coaches usually want some GM power over the roster and Mills aint giving up his power. Young wolves like Fizdale might have to accept a plant on the coaching staff. We're fukked until we get a coach with a plan and at least the autonomy to execute it without interference.

Mudiay sucks I agree. But I've never been high on Frank. Using the 8th pick on him was too high with his game and his age. Especially to run point in todays NBA! He has long arms. Yay. But you can't wait 3-4 years for your floor general to learn how to play his position. Not when he's not particularly athletic, a good shooter, or even a good ball handler

Burke "showing out" is too. He's shown "slightly bigger Isaiah Thomas" potential and I guess that can be ok coming off the bench. But with the likes of Mudiay and Ntilikina already in the fold I think the PG search should continue.

 

[NY's #1 Draft Pick]

There's been so much turnover in Knick management the last 20 years, you can't really find one coaching staff to blame. The constant has been the owner. Right now he has Perry and Mills running the show. I'm gonna be patient and see what they do. Hopefully they hire a coach and let him develop his own staff from top to bottom. I.E. with no more Herb Williams/Kurt Rambis type plants on the staff. Your top coaches usually want some GM power over the roster and Mills aint giving up his power. Young wolves like Fizdale might have to accept a plant on the coaching staff. We're fukked until we get a coach with a plan and at least the autonomy to execute it without interference.

Mudiay sucks I agree. But I've never been high on Frank. Using the 8th pick on him was too high with his game and his age. Especially to run point in todays NBA! He has long arms. Yay. But you can't wait 3-4 years for your floor general to learn how to play his position. Not when he's not particularly athletic, a good shooter, or even a good ball handler

Burke "showing out" is too. He's shown "slightly bigger Isaiah Thomas" potential and I guess that can be ok coming off the bench. But with the likes of Mudiay and Ntilikina already in the fold I think the PG search should continue.

Fire the coaching staff . Get mills the fukk out. Bring in fizdale..... I wouldn't mind bringing doc

Trade Lee , send mudiay to hell . Tank for the rest of the season. See what Williams Dotson and the rest of the young boys have to offer. That s all we can do at this point. Our future depends on how kp recovers from that knee. Anything else depends on management

 

[RickyGQ]

 

[RickyGQ]

The kid is a DOG.
WE DONT HAVE ANY OF THOSE...

 

[knickscrusaderm]

Dennis Smith is a dog....

Too bad stat nerds love them a p*ssy swing passer.

Especially if they're foreign.

 

[Youhadasparkwhenustarted]

The Bulls face the Pistons tonight, the Kings play the Magic tonight, Nets Play the Grizzles tommorrow, Bulls play the Hawks the Day after, and the Knicks play the Bucks tonight. The Knicks will probably make good traction in terms of draft position over the next week, the Bulls have a good shot at winning the next two games so the Knicks may even end up in the 8 spot before the week is out. 7 and up give the Knicks an outside shot at Bamba,Bagley, Jaren Jackson, or Porter

 

[storyteller]

If we're picking at 9 I could see Sexton being the BPA. Right now I'm thinking

Ayton
Doncic
Bagley
JJJ
Bamba
Porter Jr
Mikal
Carter
Sexton or Miles

...I really wanna land Mikal or Bamba if we're not top three but Sexton is the type of player I can roll with. Flexibile line-up fit and I could see him sliding into a line-up with Frank/THJ/KP and fitting in.

 

[Youhadasparkwhenustarted]

Draft express mock drafts have had Sexton going to the Knicks since the first mock they put up, and DX probably has the most accurate mocks out there, so I've been braced for the possibility of Sexton as a Knick for a while. The Knicks probably want to make tim a 3 and Frank a 2 long term, so its safe to assume they value Trae and Sexton a lot higher than most of the other lottery teams.

I cant do it right now, but I'll post the mock later if anyone is interested.

 

[RickyGQ]

If we're picking at 9 I could see Sexton being the BPA. Right now I'm thinking

Ayton
Doncic
Bagley
JJJ
Bamba
Porter Jr
Mikal
Carter
Sexton or Miles

...I really wanna land Mikal or Bamba if we're not top three but Sexton is the type of player I can roll with. Flexibile line-up fit and I could see him sliding into a line-up with Frank/THJ/KP and fitting in.

I think it comes down to Orlando really. If they decide not to go PG in the draft, or take Young, I can’t see any other team taking Sexton before us. If it’s between the two Bridges, Knox and Sexton, I’d want Sexton. He has the most star potential IMO.
The comparisons of Mikal Bridges to Paul George have me very intrigued tho.

 

[Miles Davis]

Pray the balls fall our way and we move up