knickscrusaderm
lead by example
Double
A Blown Knee & Flat Tires-Another NY Pothole Year: 17-18 Knicks Season Thread
- Thread starter DPresidential
- Start date
-
- Tags
- knicks
Miles Davis
Prince of Darkness
Columbo
Lieutenant
Lowkey if Kyrie was with a western conference team id consider moving Porzingis for him only because im concerned with KP's ability to stay healthy long term 
Dudes here were reckless with the Kyrie slander during the summer. Talking bout they wouldn’t trade Frank for Kyrie
I’d trade everybody on this team but KP for a chance at Kyrie
The Knicks didn't have the players or a high enough pick to get Kyrie.
The Cavs got the Celtics two best players from last season and a guaranteed top 5 pick. The Knicks couldn't offer a package comparable without giving up porzingis.
The Cavs got the Celtics two best players from last season and a guaranteed top 5 pick. The Knicks couldn't offer a package comparable without giving up porzingis.
Listen to Jordan vs. LeBron and Final Stretch Preview | The Ringer NBA Show (Ep. 215) by The Ringer NBA Show #np on #SoundCloud
8:35 and on, the Knicks considered Mitchell and they were also interested in Monk at the deadline.
8:35 and on, the Knicks considered Mitchell and they were also interested in Monk at the deadline.
storyteller
Superstar
I think a chunk of the impatience has to do with the fact that he's been pegged as a Phil pick. But we sent the entire crew to peep him including Mills and most importantly Clarence Gaines. A lot of the heads with really good track records vouched for him but it's always been true that he'd be a project. Add the mess this team has been; a head coach no fan likes; missing all of summer league and all but one preseason game; getting less opportunities than his peers because of a boneheaded playoff push; and the fact that he's a 19 year old over here with no family; his splits when playing with KP/THJ; his defensive splits period....there are a gang of reasons that we shouldn't give up on a prospect.
P.S. Brickley working with Frank this offseason would be great.
would be great if Frank and Mudiay both worked with Brickley.
anybody who dislikes or has "given up" on a 19yr old rookie from another country is wild.
seemorecizzy
Superstar
Yeah the cavs loved those players so much that they traded both of em before the allstar break
Several front office guys(including lebron) were against the trade and our first rounder was predicted to be a high pick as well
Doesnt matter either way, yall were standing firm. No first rounders for kyrie, frank and willy are untouchable
Cole Zwicker, 46 mins ago 0 15 min read
The NBA is a shooting league, especially for perimeter players. This rings true for both stars and role player types. As a top-tier perimeter creator with wing size, unless you’re an initiator who gets to the rim at will via size, strength and speed (LeBron James, Ben Simmons) or a Giannis Antetokounmpo level finisher around the basket, odds are you need to shoot. It’s no surprise that elite level shot-makers like Kevin Durant and Kawhi Leonard comprise the archetype of player that can still hold immense offensive value despite not initiating their respective offenses on most possessions.
This shooting sentiment is every bit as important for role players who can’t add the same creation and playmaking value as their star counterparts. The easiest way to add offensive value in an off-ball, secondary role for a wing in the NBA is to shoot, and more specifically, to shoot 3s. It’s a self-evident concept, but an important one as we project perimeter players, and for purpose of this piece, wings, into the NBA. For most every case involving these perimeter types, the analysis process has to start from a shooting foundation and trickle down from there.
How draftniks traditionally calibrate shooting statistically is via 3-point percentage, 3-point volume, 3-point attempt rate, free throw percentage and free throw volume in some order. This makes sense from an on paper standpoint, especially because most of us lack the expertise to really analyze shot mechanics intricately and effectively on film, rendering these stats the more accessible recourse. But the traditional shooting statistical analysis process doesn’t capture important nuances that weigh heavily on a prospect’s shot projection. These nuances come in the form of shot distance (NBA 3-point range attempts) and perhaps most importantly, shot diversity.
How functional a player’s shot is in a diverse amount of ways is a critical input to projecting shooting. If a player can shoot off movement without having his feet set or shoot off the dribble, it enhances the amount of gravity that player has on the floor as a scoring threat and allows that player to partake in a more diverse amount of offensive sets. Efficient and high-volume stationary catch-and-shoot 3-point shooters still carry value, but players who can convert shots efficiently in a myriad of ways carry more value due to their expanded usage in an offense and the enhanced gravity they create.
We see this idea consistently manifest in the NBA with wings in this 3&D archetype. Paul George exceeds the traditional parameters of 3&D due some to his ability to handle competently and pass respectably, but he really eclipses these confines mostly due to the shot diversity he provides off movement and off the dribble. There are multiple attributes that separate George from the traditional 3&D prototype, Danny Green, with the main culprit (outside of dribbling) being George’s shot is more functional off movement, allowing for increased efficiency and volume here:
2017/18 Half Court Wing Off-Screen Play Type Possessions Per Game (Non-Inclusive)
As the following montage illustrates, George can consistently operate as a shooter off floppy actions, down screens, pin-down curls and flares, a combination that is a pillar of Oklahoma City’s offense:
George’s size (conservatively 6-foot-9), high release point, footwork and balance shooting off motion makes him a nightmare guard on these actions with the ability to shoot over the top of defenders.
Khris Middleton is another tall wing player in this general archetype who can really be leveraged in these types of actions:
Middleton isn’t as effective as George in these settings (or as a shooter overall) and more of his screen actions are run for mid-range shots, but you can still see the value Middleton adds as an off movement shooting cog in Milwaukee’s offense.
On the opposite side of the pendulum as George is Green, who has some off movement shooting acumen via down screen and flare actions, but his shot isn’t as functional due some to size but also balance:
Green needs more time and space than George and Middleton, and relies more on forward momentum getting square to the basket. Green is still capable here, but his shot isn’t as diverse as some of his other counterparts, limiting the versatility he can provide San Antonio’s offense as a shooter.
The second component to shot diversity beyond off movement shooting is pull-up shooting, and the two often operate in concert. I’ve talked ad nauseam about the importance of off the dribble shooting over the past two years. It’s elicited responses typically in form of “why is taking bad shots deserving of this much attention?” The truth is that even the best NBA teams at the highest levels of play take and have to take bad shots routinely. You’re not going to get an open spot up corner 3 on every possession, and with how switch-oriented that league has become, you need multiple players who can make bad shots off the dribble. This is where the league is going (and probably already is), and it’s the one skill you can most often point to that really differentiates the elites (stars and role players) from the pack.
This again holds true for this 3&D plus grouping, where George and Middleton types can add more value to an offense via self-creation shooting than a player like Green or Robert Covington:
2017/18 Half Court Wing Off The Dribble Shooting Play Type Possessions Per Game (Non-Inclusive)
There are numerous differentiating factors between George’s functionality as a pull-up shooter compared to someone like Green. The stark difference could be attributed mostly to ball-handling ability, with Green’s inability to dribble limiting his volume ceiling in this capacity. Other factors consist of height, mechanics (release point), balance, body control, momentum (forward versus backward), and quickness/smoothness of the transition from handling the ball into the shot. You can attribute the difference in effectiveness to any or all of these factors. The key takeaway is that there is a significant difference within this player type.
George’s handling ability and fluidity as a pull-up shooter allows him to partake in a diverse amount of play types such as pick-and-rolls and isolations, giving him avenues to contribute to an offense as a self-creator:
Similar to George, Middleton sees heavy usage as a pull-up shooter in Milwaukee’s offense, and his ability to shoot over the top of defenders (again similar to George) is a tremendous asset:
Middleton would do well to rein in his shot selection some on contested mid-range pull-ups when higher value shots are available earlier in the clock, but his shot-making diversity in a pinch is key.
Lastly, Green exemplifies the less versatile pull-up shooting contingent. While he is again capable of making these pull-ups in a pinch, they are more limited in application and often require him to square up with more time and space like in the following setting:
This analysis might seem overly simplistic, but it’s important to suss out what differentiates certain wing players from others as shooters, especially as it relates to how we project players into the league from lower levels.
Up to this point, most of the emphasis of wing shot diversity has been placed on significance in the NBA using examples to draw out reasons for effectiveness and underline differences in utility. But in terms of prospect projection for wings (or any position), shot diversity is also a significant and useful indicator as it relates to our confidence level (non-statistically) of a prospect’s shot translating to the league.
In the 2018 class, Mikal Bridges is the poster boy for this wing archetype among active college players (Michael Porter if he defends is the guy here). Bridges has traditionally been pigeon-holed into a more conservative 3&D outcome range given his role on past Villanova teams usage wise and passive shooting confidence pre-junior year. But his development as a diverse shooter this season alters and enhances that conservative projection.
For statistical context as an off screen shooter, Bridges doesn’t have dynamic usage like Malik Monk or Klay Thompson in the past, but he’s been given expanded opportunities this season and has been efficient:
Mikal Bridges Career Half Court Off-Screen Play Type
Bridges’ usage here actually isn’t uncommonly low for a prospect of his archetype:
Off-Screen Play Type (Half Court; Sorted By Possessions)
As with most stats, context is crucial and small sample variance in terms of effectiveness should be viewed cautiously. The biggest statistical takeaway here is probably volume-based. We can see players like Khris Middleton and Kawhi Leonard sport higher volume off screen distributions in college, and that component of their respective games has translated. Of course, play types are almost always influenced by scheme, circumstance and role, but seeing that a prospect is utilized this way is useful at surface level. The tape is more illustrative of the specifics here, especially when it concerns small samples, and the tape buttresses the stats as it concerns Bridges taking a noticeable step this year as an off movement shooter.
Bridges’ breakout game spotlighting his off movement shooting was his most recent game against Xavier. The following shot might be the most important input we’ve had from Bridges all season as it relates to his NBA ceiling:
Bridges sprints left, hops into the pass under control, and elevates over the top of the contest of NBA two-guard sized J.P. Macura. That’s an NBA level shot… that Bridges executed again about 40 seconds later the same game:
We simply can’t ignore shooting flashes like these, as they’re pivotal to truly capturing Bridges’ ceiling as a shot-maker.
Aiding Bridges’ positive shooting projection is his intersection of height and high release point. That combination allows Bridges to shoot over the top of similarly sized players, unearthing the kind of actions he can be utilized in when you include the ability to shoot off movement. The following pin-down curl attempt against Xavier is reminiscent of the kind of shot the Bucks design for Middleton to take:
Jay Wright uses this same design routinely, as we see the same pin-down curl set for Bridges against Butler, but this time Bridges shows the ability to get off a respectable look with backward momentum via a fadeaway over a contest:
He missed the shot of course, but the process here is the more important takeaway, and we see him convert a similar attempt against Temple:
Another key here is that Bridges showed the ability to come off a pin-down and curl both directions from both sides of the floor, expanding his versatility and utilization possibilities.
Often times in college due to scheme we don’t get many set plays in live action with bigger wing players especially coming off screens. A valuable source to simulate this kind of action thus becomes baseline out-of-bounds designed plays that have an off motion component. Bridges gives us another peak behind the curtain of his potential shot diversity upside against Creighton sprinting left, hard-planting off the 1-2 and elevating over Khyri Thomas on the BLOB play:
And again against Marquette and 6-foot-8 forward Sam Houser:
Bridges adds to his shot-making versatility in the following clip, showing the IQ to read his man trying to shoot the gap on the down screen and fading to the corner with plus footwork to get his shot off quickly with a slight backward lean:
Being as athletic and long as Bridges is and being utilized off screens this way also unearths above the rim finishing opportunities like the following back cut:
We’re again only talking a small sample here, but the film in terms of process is convincing as it relates to Bridges’ potential shooting off motion.
The numbers don’t speak as highly of Mikal’s pull-up ability in terms of efficiency:
Mikal Bridges Career Half Court Off The Dribble Shooting
But again, context, and historical context especially, is required to give the numbers meaning:
College Wings Off The Dribble Shooting (Half Court; Sorted By Possessions)
We can see Bridges doesn’t stand out either via volume or efficiency, but neither did Paul George. Also, if you want another indicator of Kawhi’s off the dribble shot-making ability, you have it here (same with Middleton), focusing more on the ability to do it at volume rather than the result.
The flashes on film are a little kinder to Bridges as a pull-up shooter. When he has a size advantage as he does here against 6-foot-4 Butler guard Henry Baddley, he shows the comfort and fluidity to shoot over the top in a face up situation:
And again in the same game, this time attacking right and offering a look into a more difficult shot-making situation:
Neither of the above two shots went in, but aesthetically and in terms of functionality, the attempts pass the eye-test.
Bridges doesn’t have an advanced handle, which limits his ability to self-create in isolation and pick-and-rolls navigating through more confined spaces. But he has a little more juice as a dribbler than he gets credit for. The following face up through-the-legs step back in isolation over 6-foot-6 Georgetown wing Kaleb Johnson might have been Bridges’ most NBA-level self-creation move to date:
The following isolation crossover pull-up over the lengthy 6-foot-8 Gonzaga combo-forward Rui Hachimura was one of our best looks at Bridges’ ability to get his shot over the top of a bigger forward type:
These are the kinds of self-creation plays that we have to build into the calculus when computing what Bridges could become as a shooter at the next level.
In terms of functionality off the dribble, Bridges shows the ability to get to his pull-up going both directions. Here, he takes a one-dribble pull-up to the right and knocks down the shot with some interference to beat the clock against Butler:
And in the following clip he pulls up going left off one dribble with considerable drift working off the 1-2:
Against smaller players, Bridges shows the physicality to drop his shoulder to create separation to elevate over the top. He does exactly this in the following clip against Hofstra off the dribble hand-off action, which serves as a useful example of his ability to create separation and shoot over the top of smaller guards on switches at the next level:
Whether Bridges can shoot NBA 3s off the bounce is probably a harder sell (if he’s even tasked with doing this in the NBA in a secondary pick-and-roll for example), but he has shown flashes of college 3-point range off the dribble going to his left. Here, the Hofstra defender ducks under the screen, and Bridges makes him pay from distance:
He attempts an NBA 3 this time in the same game against Hofstra in a similar circumstance, and while the result isn’t there, the process looks projectable with sound footwork on the step back:
More applicable to Bridges’ likely role at the next level is the following circumstance of simply taking one dribble inside the arc attacking a closeout (ideally he’d side step at the NBA level if positioned behind the 3-point line for a 3), executing the pull-up with 1-2 footwork and forward momentum:
I came into this season projecting Bridges as a potential Danny Green-esque player with better ball-handling in straight line situations as one of his better outcomes. And to be clear, that’s a hell of a player and outcome. But Bridges’ improvement this season as a diverse shooter and confident shot-maker alters that outcome range.
I’m not expecting Bridges to be Paul George. George has superior height that gives him more avenues to shoot over the top of defenders, and from the college highlights I’ve seen of George, he just moved more fluidly than Bridges and his shot looked more functionally fluid. It’s unlikely Bridges will reach that level of shot-maker, but it’s also not impossible based on the sample we’ve seen this year.
Stylistically and aesthetically, Bridges looks more similar to Middleton in terms of shot mechanics and height. Middleton is still on the higher end of Bridges’ self-creation outcomes, but that seems obtainable, at least more so than George. If Bridges is Middleton-esque offensively with better defense? That’s an insanely valuable player.
The overall point here is that we have to adjust Bridges’ outcome range to include these higher end shot-making possibilities, even if they’re unlikely. There is something to be said for the consistency side of this self-creation projection, a component Bridges doesn’t have as he hasn’t created his own shot to a threshold level most teams drafting in the top 10 are probably comfortable with. But some of that can be chalked up to Villanova’s 4 out motion scheme and the role that Bridges has played historically next to higher usage creators.
Similar to Jaren Jackson, Bridges gets branded with a high floor, low ceiling stamp. Some of us value “upside” differently, but even in a generic sense of the term, Bridges could be a pseudo-star and definitely offers star caliber role player appeal at his ceiling. It will be fascinating to see how Bridges’ game translates to the next level, and how telling the shot diversity he’s shown this season proves to be. It’s unclear what level of impact he’ll have as an NBA player (very solid bet to be positive). What is clear is that his ceiling is likely tied to his shooting and shot-making versatility. If this season is any indication, the potential is there.
*All stats derived from Synergy Sports Tech
Link: Mikal Bridges and Wing Shot Diversity - The Stepien
Neither of the above two shots went in, but aesthetically and in terms of functionality, the attempts pass the eye-test.
Bridges doesn’t have an advanced handle, which limits his ability to self-create in isolation and pick-and-rolls navigating through more confined spaces. But he has a little more juice as a dribbler than he gets credit for. The following face up through-the-legs step back in isolation over 6-foot-6 Georgetown wing Kaleb Johnson might have been Bridges’ most NBA-level self-creation move to date:
The following isolation crossover pull-up over the lengthy 6-foot-8 Gonzaga combo-forward Rui Hachimura was one of our best looks at Bridges’ ability to get his shot over the top of a bigger forward type:
These are the kinds of self-creation plays that we have to build into the calculus when computing what Bridges could become as a shooter at the next level.
In terms of functionality off the dribble, Bridges shows the ability to get to his pull-up going both directions. Here, he takes a one-dribble pull-up to the right and knocks down the shot with some interference to beat the clock against Butler:
And in the following clip he pulls up going left off one dribble with considerable drift working off the 1-2:
Against smaller players, Bridges shows the physicality to drop his shoulder to create separation to elevate over the top. He does exactly this in the following clip against Hofstra off the dribble hand-off action, which serves as a useful example of his ability to create separation and shoot over the top of smaller guards on switches at the next level:
Whether Bridges can shoot NBA 3s off the bounce is probably a harder sell (if he’s even tasked with doing this in the NBA in a secondary pick-and-roll for example), but he has shown flashes of college 3-point range off the dribble going to his left. Here, the Hofstra defender ducks under the screen, and Bridges makes him pay from distance:
He attempts an NBA 3 this time in the same game against Hofstra in a similar circumstance, and while the result isn’t there, the process looks projectable with sound footwork on the step back:
More applicable to Bridges’ likely role at the next level is the following circumstance of simply taking one dribble inside the arc attacking a closeout (ideally he’d side step at the NBA level if positioned behind the 3-point line for a 3), executing the pull-up with 1-2 footwork and forward momentum:
I came into this season projecting Bridges as a potential Danny Green-esque player with better ball-handling in straight line situations as one of his better outcomes. And to be clear, that’s a hell of a player and outcome. But Bridges’ improvement this season as a diverse shooter and confident shot-maker alters that outcome range.
I’m not expecting Bridges to be Paul George. George has superior height that gives him more avenues to shoot over the top of defenders, and from the college highlights I’ve seen of George, he just moved more fluidly than Bridges and his shot looked more functionally fluid. It’s unlikely Bridges will reach that level of shot-maker, but it’s also not impossible based on the sample we’ve seen this year.
Stylistically and aesthetically, Bridges looks more similar to Middleton in terms of shot mechanics and height. Middleton is still on the higher end of Bridges’ self-creation outcomes, but that seems obtainable, at least more so than George. If Bridges is Middleton-esque offensively with better defense? That’s an insanely valuable player.
The overall point here is that we have to adjust Bridges’ outcome range to include these higher end shot-making possibilities, even if they’re unlikely. There is something to be said for the consistency side of this self-creation projection, a component Bridges doesn’t have as he hasn’t created his own shot to a threshold level most teams drafting in the top 10 are probably comfortable with. But some of that can be chalked up to Villanova’s 4 out motion scheme and the role that Bridges has played historically next to higher usage creators.
Similar to Jaren Jackson, Bridges gets branded with a high floor, low ceiling stamp. Some of us value “upside” differently, but even in a generic sense of the term, Bridges could be a pseudo-star and definitely offers star caliber role player appeal at his ceiling. It will be fascinating to see how Bridges’ game translates to the next level, and how telling the shot diversity he’s shown this season proves to be. It’s unclear what level of impact he’ll have as an NBA player (very solid bet to be positive). What is clear is that his ceiling is likely tied to his shooting and shot-making versatility. If this season is any indication, the potential is there.
*All stats derived from Synergy Sports Tech
Link: Mikal Bridges and Wing Shot Diversity - The Stepien
storyteller
Superstar
Yeah the cavs loved those players so much that they traded both of em before the allstar break
Several front office guys(including lebron) were against the trade and our first rounder was predicted to be a high pick as well
Doesnt matter either way, yall were standing firm. No first rounders for kyrie, frank and willy are untouchable
So you'd trade Frank, Picks AND Willy for Kyrie? That ain't winning a chip or coming close to it breh. KP, Kyrie, THJ with no cap space and or ability to move picks...that's not how you win a chip.
seemorecizzy
Superstar
Breh
Kp and kyrie alone with a quality coach keeps us as a contender in the east for the foreseeable future. Then we can focus on other things.
Im not sayin that would win us a automatic championship, im saying it would give us direction and 2 certified allstars to build our team around for the next 10 years lol
Its not a short term decision. Cap space and draft picks will come.
You really telling me you would turn dat down
