ProlificLurker
Superstar
to Lee for keeping the tank on trackBut on a serious note the officiating has been terrible this year, refs been on some other shyt all season
A Blown Knee & Flat Tires-Another NY Pothole Year: 17-18 Knicks Season Thread
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to Lee for keeping the tank on trackBut on a serious note the officiating has been terrible this year, refs been on some other shyt all season
PIFF101
Bring back the Golden Era
How many zero points games does Frank Nicotine have this season?
He's 19. He can penetrate the D but needs to develop his shot. His defense and steals are fine but he needs to work on his jump shot and driving layups in traffic, again he's 19
Miles Davis
Prince of Darkness
Jeff in the post game preaching defense. I can’t take this guy seriously when he’s got Rambis as his defense coach.
Did the grizzlies ever miss a shot today?
Columbo
Lieutenant
Keep the losses coming 
seemorecizzy
Superstar
yall love making excuses for dis guyHe's 19. He can penetrate the D but needs to develop his shot. His defense and steals are fine but he needs to work on his jump shot and driving layups in traffic, again he's 19
i dont care if he's 12, he cant be having all these 0 point games all the time
You quick to pop up when frank has a bad gameyall love making excuses for dis guy
i dont care if he's 12, he cant be having all these 0 point games all the time
L against bk would have been huge
but glad to see the tank headed in the right direction
5 games out of the top 5, it's gonna be tough but doable. Time to get shameless
trade kanter, jack, koq and lee for whatever young talent/draft picks possible.
Sit KP for his "elbow" injury.
Throw nitty into the fire.
Lets get a couple 10 game losing streaks going
but glad to see the tank headed in the right direction
5 games out of the top 5, it's gonna be tough but doable. Time to get shameless
trade kanter, jack, koq and lee for whatever young talent/draft picks possible.
Sit KP for his "elbow" injury.
Throw nitty into the fire.
Lets get a couple 10 game losing streaks going
pimpineasy
Superstar
I really have to admit it since I believe blaming refs for calls is a sign of weakness. But man the refs have been on rookie settings this year.
But on a serious note the officiating has been terrible this year, refs been on some other shyt all season
seemorecizzy
Superstar
I was here last game when he played wellYou quick to pop up when frank has a bad game
Its not my fault that only happens two or 3 times a month
:
ogc163
Superstar
Hornaceck has to go, can't use the triangle offense as a cop out anymore.
storyteller
Veteran
It's harder and harder to watch a team trot out and ride its vets in crucial situations over the youth that we were promised would be the focus. The Knicks starters (boasting vets Lee, Jack and Thomas) never played with intensity besides KP in the second half. The second unit stepped up in the fourth quarter and energized things with a boost from KP coming in early, but their defensive play came with limited offense. That said, Hornacek has been preaching defense and development all season while continuing to ride offensive types and old dogs get the crucial possessions. This team is not winning games riding these veteran players. Courtney Lee taking the last shot of the game hasn't worked. Jarrett Jack coming in late to add offense has mostly failed because of his defensive woes. Beasley has been brilliant but similar to Jack, the more he's relied on the more you notice his errant decisions on the defensive end. Ask yourself, how much worse do you think the Knicks record would be for the last two months with Frank starting and closing games; KP getting the last shot of every close game instead of Lee; Doug McDermott getting starts instead of Lance Thomas...it probably wouldn't be a better record but considering the Knicks haven't won much at all, it couldn't be that much worse either. After watching the guys we designate as leaders show low effort, pick up dumb T's in crunch time (this is the second game that's happened recently) and play worse defense than the youth that comes in after them; it's clear as day that this team would be better served letting the young hungry players go out there and at least play hard. Will they produce more wins? That's doubtful to be honest. Frank is too limited offensively this early in his development; KP's still struggling to find consistency on his jumper; and the rest of the youth is limited talent wise...but they work hard, they play the sort of defense that can keep a game within striking distance for a hot shooter to make a comeback, and they stand to learn more on the court in tough situations than watching other guys take the big shot. Instead of a recap, something different
Trade Power Rankings: Let's look at the players I'd most like to see traded down to the ones I'd least like to see dealt. There are various reasons to want a player traded, it's not just about talent. Contract, age, fit and what sort of value they'll bring back all factor into this as well as competition at their position. So this is a fun exercise as the deadline approaches and the team seems more and more likely to be a seller. Feel free to list your own or let me know your thoughts on my placement or reasoning for it.
1. Joakim Noah - The obvious top dog. He makes 18 million dollars and is the FOURTH Center on our depth chart. Unfortunately, we'd probably have to give up an unprotected pick to move his contract which is good for 2 more seasons after this one. We're most likely stuck with him.
2. Jarret Jack - It took about five minutes of Trey Burke play for me to completely forget that Jack has been playing well on offense lately. It's not that he's been bad all around but he is a terrible defender these days and we'd do well to give Frank more reps on the floor while also taking a look at whether or not Burke can be a useful rotation player going forward. Jack's an expiring minimum contract who won't move the scale in any way on the trade market, plus a vet for Frank is a good idea. I'd guess he sticks around, but hopefully Hornacek moves on to the youngsters sooner than later (not holding my breath).
3. Courtney Lee - This has absolutely nothing to do with quality of play. Lee has been fantastic considering his contract. It's looked like a career year for the man. But he's an aging player making 14 million dollars a season and he's better suited for SG (Tim Hardaway's slot) than SF which he plays now. Lee actually could command some kind of value back without us eating a bad contract and I'd love to see him help out a playoff team. I think this has a chance to happen and it would open up 35 minutes on the wing for our plethora of young guys that need a look (Doug, Dotson, Baker).
4. Enes Kanter - His minutes are dropping, he's starting to be frustrated about lack of fourth quarter play and he's part of the Center logjam. Again, based on performance Kanter should be praised. He's stepped up and made adjustments to his game. But in the small ball era, he is a limited piece making 16 million dollars. If he opts in, that's a ton of cash for a guy that Hornacek doesn't trust in fourth quarters. If he opts out, do we really want to pay him long term while we're stuck with Noah already eating up 18 million dollars of salary? I'm doubtful we could find much demand for him on the trade market but he has been productive. Dude is a great rebounder with real post talent...so maybe a GM would bite on him but it's a longshot in my mind.
5. Lance Thomas - Dude can go 30 minutes grab 1 board and hit one field goal but still have people clamoring about his intangibles. Lance is a good but not great situational defender. He's versatile enough to defend wings and some power forwards effectively, but he doesn't produce anywhere else consistently. That means you really need to make up for everything you're losing while he's out there. He makes 7 million dollars for the next two seasons with a partial guarantee in 2020 and that's too much money for a guy that you can't play more than 15 minutes per game without taking a hit. The good news is that his reputation for locker room presence, coach love and defense may convince a team that needs a glue piece to give him a try. The contract is bad but not devastating and if a team sees him as a 3 and D option, they might be willing to take him without shipping back equivalent money. We'd have to salary dump him most likely though, I doubt he commands any value. I rte a trade as unlikely because coaches love him.
6. Michael Beasley - I'm assuming your head just exploded but hear me out. Beasley has been great lately, he's a scoring presence even when KP is struggling and THJ is out. He's also on a one year contract and he should and likely will receive a nice payday for his performance after this season. That said, I don't think the Knicks should be the ones to pay him. You can find impact scorers when you need them and Beasley is outside of the timeline for the younger Knicks roster that should stick around. His value to a team that is fighting for a homecourt advantage or a round one edge would be real and the Knicks don't have long term use for him. There may be a team willing to give up a second round pick or a young guy that they're not keen on keeping for...the Knicks should do due diligence.
7. KOQ - KOQ is another member of the Center logjam and the only member with an expiring contract. The thing is, he's also the Knicks most well rounded Center. Kylo plays some defense, passes well, is gritty on boards and has some finishing ability to boot. He's a quality back-up who I'd like to see run more high-low action with KP where his passing would open things up. That said, he still lands fairly high on the list because he should command at least some value back and because he's among the most realistic pieces that NY can both try to trade and has reason to trade. His cap number after this season would decide if they should bring him back. He from NYC and well liked in the locker room, so maybe he gives a hometown discount. But even at 8-10 million dollars per season, the Knicks could balk if Kanter were to opt-in. That makes this a tricky one and it's also the reason the Knicks should explore trade offers. If they can get a first or a young player with some promise, then they need to take advantage and avoid the risk of losing him for nothing.
8. Ron Baker - Ron Baker leaves me with some indifference to be honest. His 4.5 million dollars this season and next aren't breaking the bank but still seems too high for a player with little to no offensive skill. He is a good defender though, great at fighting through screens and typically showing both a high motor and IQ on that end. He's young and could develop, there are signs of improvement in his jumper which was a strength in college. All of that said, if you need to throw him in to make salaries work or as an additional bit of youth to get a deal done...I don't think anyone would be too upset.
9. Doug McDermott - Another expiring contract on a player that hasn't been good enough to commit a long term salary to unless it's team friendly. Doug's been a solid all around player. His shooting isn't as good as advertised but his off ball movement and defense are better than expected to make up for it. He's also not likely to command a big salary which makes him a valid option to keep in the offseason. But like Baker, he's not tipping the scales one way or the other. If a team wants him and will give you value, then they'll probably outbid you in the offseason also.
10. Damyean Dotson - Dotson has had too few opportunities to be too high on or low on. He's a mystery for the most part. What he has shown in brief moments though is a pretty good jumper, high motor and some strong defense. He's also a good rebounder for his position. At a second round cheap contract and having shown so little, it's hard to imagine he'd draw any trade interest and I wouldn't rush to move the kid until we get an extended look at him.
11. Willy Hernangomez - I'm guessing a good chunk of fans would flip Kanter and Willy on this list without batting an eye but I disagree. Looking back at the power rankings number one player, we've got 18 million dollars committed to a Center that won't play for the next couple of seasons. Even if you don't project Willy as a starter, his rookie campaign showed him to be at least a valid back-up. In the months he averaged more than 20 minutes per game, he also averaged a double-double and he's still a sophomore at 23 years old. The kid has some upside, back-up talent and most importantly...he only makes 1.5 million dollars per season through the 2020 season, essentially offsetting the albatross contract Noah has. If he can develop into a starter, that would be huge but even if not; he's talented enough to stick around on that 12th man salary. A first round pick offer would make it a lot harder to hang on to him. That said a cheap salary, fitting the roster timeline and room for growth make him a player I'd like to see kept.
12. Tim Hardaway - Tim Hardaway was considered by some to be the worst contract of the offseason. His salary tops out at 19 million dollars in the 2020-2021 season and that's a lot. But his early production lived up to the money and his absence showed the Knicks missing a dimension that only he offers. Hardaway is the team's best shooter and fastbreak player. He's young enough to fit the timeline and has been a good fit with KP. He also has been most impressive in fourth quarters which is a great sign. I hated the signing initially but the Knicks have gotten value out of it and health is the only questionmark I've got. He should stick around and hopefully continue to develop defensively.
13. Frank Ntilikina - It was always going to be about patience with this kid, a problem when other lottery PG's have been given bigger roles and produced. Frank's handle needs improvement, jumper needs consistency and while he flashes great instincts as a passer he also makes rookie TO's that even irk even keeled Walt Clyde Frazier during telecasts. He has flashed ability in all of these areas though. When his confidence is there, he attacks more and starts to have a lot more success. But recently he has appeared more afraid to make a mistake and get benched than to go for the homerun. Blame his mentality, fatigue, skills or coaching...it's something that needs to be worked on. So why is he still listed so high? Frank's the same age as college freshman this season. He's a 6'6 PG with a 7'0 wingspan who has elite upside as a defender. He pairs well with KP as they create an inside-outside defensive compliment that eases the burden on everyone else. With development in his offensive game and a weight training program, his upside is scary but whether he reaches those peaks is a question mark. You can't trade someone so young, with tools like that just because he isn't giving you massive early returns. His defense alone has made his on/off splits look strong and games like his near triple-double in Dallas despite being so raw are the types that make him an obvious keeper.
14. KP - He'll get the supermax some day and it better be the Knicks that pay him. KP is still just 22 and when he's playing well the entire team looks better. His defensive ability is ahead of his offense, a trait missing in most of his peers. That two-way upside makes him an impact player even on poor shooting nights. Against the Wolves, he single handedly sparked the defense with 6 blocks in just the second half. There are issues for sure; he's still struggling to identify doubles and which pass to make out of them. He forces some jumpers and fatigue has plagued each of his first three seasons. None of that erases the fact that he's a young developing allstar type who looks the part of a franchise centerpiece. Phil Jackson might have ranked him higher on the list, but I don't think anyone else would.
Honorable Mention: Trey Burke - Trey Burke follows a line of G-League hype players who are unlikely to pan out but are worth a look in case they just might. He joins the likes of Ricky Ledo, Langston Galloway and Chasson Randle as guys from the "why not" column. No one's trading for him but he's on the roster and I really would like to see him get some shots. He's probably more Travis Wear than Linsanity but you know what...why not?
Trade Power Rankings: Let's look at the players I'd most like to see traded down to the ones I'd least like to see dealt. There are various reasons to want a player traded, it's not just about talent. Contract, age, fit and what sort of value they'll bring back all factor into this as well as competition at their position. So this is a fun exercise as the deadline approaches and the team seems more and more likely to be a seller. Feel free to list your own or let me know your thoughts on my placement or reasoning for it.
1. Joakim Noah - The obvious top dog. He makes 18 million dollars and is the FOURTH Center on our depth chart. Unfortunately, we'd probably have to give up an unprotected pick to move his contract which is good for 2 more seasons after this one. We're most likely stuck with him.
2. Jarret Jack - It took about five minutes of Trey Burke play for me to completely forget that Jack has been playing well on offense lately. It's not that he's been bad all around but he is a terrible defender these days and we'd do well to give Frank more reps on the floor while also taking a look at whether or not Burke can be a useful rotation player going forward. Jack's an expiring minimum contract who won't move the scale in any way on the trade market, plus a vet for Frank is a good idea. I'd guess he sticks around, but hopefully Hornacek moves on to the youngsters sooner than later (not holding my breath).
3. Courtney Lee - This has absolutely nothing to do with quality of play. Lee has been fantastic considering his contract. It's looked like a career year for the man. But he's an aging player making 14 million dollars a season and he's better suited for SG (Tim Hardaway's slot) than SF which he plays now. Lee actually could command some kind of value back without us eating a bad contract and I'd love to see him help out a playoff team. I think this has a chance to happen and it would open up 35 minutes on the wing for our plethora of young guys that need a look (Doug, Dotson, Baker).
4. Enes Kanter - His minutes are dropping, he's starting to be frustrated about lack of fourth quarter play and he's part of the Center logjam. Again, based on performance Kanter should be praised. He's stepped up and made adjustments to his game. But in the small ball era, he is a limited piece making 16 million dollars. If he opts in, that's a ton of cash for a guy that Hornacek doesn't trust in fourth quarters. If he opts out, do we really want to pay him long term while we're stuck with Noah already eating up 18 million dollars of salary? I'm doubtful we could find much demand for him on the trade market but he has been productive. Dude is a great rebounder with real post talent...so maybe a GM would bite on him but it's a longshot in my mind.
5. Lance Thomas - Dude can go 30 minutes grab 1 board and hit one field goal but still have people clamoring about his intangibles. Lance is a good but not great situational defender. He's versatile enough to defend wings and some power forwards effectively, but he doesn't produce anywhere else consistently. That means you really need to make up for everything you're losing while he's out there. He makes 7 million dollars for the next two seasons with a partial guarantee in 2020 and that's too much money for a guy that you can't play more than 15 minutes per game without taking a hit. The good news is that his reputation for locker room presence, coach love and defense may convince a team that needs a glue piece to give him a try. The contract is bad but not devastating and if a team sees him as a 3 and D option, they might be willing to take him without shipping back equivalent money. We'd have to salary dump him most likely though, I doubt he commands any value. I rte a trade as unlikely because coaches love him.
6. Michael Beasley - I'm assuming your head just exploded but hear me out. Beasley has been great lately, he's a scoring presence even when KP is struggling and THJ is out. He's also on a one year contract and he should and likely will receive a nice payday for his performance after this season. That said, I don't think the Knicks should be the ones to pay him. You can find impact scorers when you need them and Beasley is outside of the timeline for the younger Knicks roster that should stick around. His value to a team that is fighting for a homecourt advantage or a round one edge would be real and the Knicks don't have long term use for him. There may be a team willing to give up a second round pick or a young guy that they're not keen on keeping for...the Knicks should do due diligence.
7. KOQ - KOQ is another member of the Center logjam and the only member with an expiring contract. The thing is, he's also the Knicks most well rounded Center. Kylo plays some defense, passes well, is gritty on boards and has some finishing ability to boot. He's a quality back-up who I'd like to see run more high-low action with KP where his passing would open things up. That said, he still lands fairly high on the list because he should command at least some value back and because he's among the most realistic pieces that NY can both try to trade and has reason to trade. His cap number after this season would decide if they should bring him back. He from NYC and well liked in the locker room, so maybe he gives a hometown discount. But even at 8-10 million dollars per season, the Knicks could balk if Kanter were to opt-in. That makes this a tricky one and it's also the reason the Knicks should explore trade offers. If they can get a first or a young player with some promise, then they need to take advantage and avoid the risk of losing him for nothing.
8. Ron Baker - Ron Baker leaves me with some indifference to be honest. His 4.5 million dollars this season and next aren't breaking the bank but still seems too high for a player with little to no offensive skill. He is a good defender though, great at fighting through screens and typically showing both a high motor and IQ on that end. He's young and could develop, there are signs of improvement in his jumper which was a strength in college. All of that said, if you need to throw him in to make salaries work or as an additional bit of youth to get a deal done...I don't think anyone would be too upset.
9. Doug McDermott - Another expiring contract on a player that hasn't been good enough to commit a long term salary to unless it's team friendly. Doug's been a solid all around player. His shooting isn't as good as advertised but his off ball movement and defense are better than expected to make up for it. He's also not likely to command a big salary which makes him a valid option to keep in the offseason. But like Baker, he's not tipping the scales one way or the other. If a team wants him and will give you value, then they'll probably outbid you in the offseason also.
10. Damyean Dotson - Dotson has had too few opportunities to be too high on or low on. He's a mystery for the most part. What he has shown in brief moments though is a pretty good jumper, high motor and some strong defense. He's also a good rebounder for his position. At a second round cheap contract and having shown so little, it's hard to imagine he'd draw any trade interest and I wouldn't rush to move the kid until we get an extended look at him.
11. Willy Hernangomez - I'm guessing a good chunk of fans would flip Kanter and Willy on this list without batting an eye but I disagree. Looking back at the power rankings number one player, we've got 18 million dollars committed to a Center that won't play for the next couple of seasons. Even if you don't project Willy as a starter, his rookie campaign showed him to be at least a valid back-up. In the months he averaged more than 20 minutes per game, he also averaged a double-double and he's still a sophomore at 23 years old. The kid has some upside, back-up talent and most importantly...he only makes 1.5 million dollars per season through the 2020 season, essentially offsetting the albatross contract Noah has. If he can develop into a starter, that would be huge but even if not; he's talented enough to stick around on that 12th man salary. A first round pick offer would make it a lot harder to hang on to him. That said a cheap salary, fitting the roster timeline and room for growth make him a player I'd like to see kept.
12. Tim Hardaway - Tim Hardaway was considered by some to be the worst contract of the offseason. His salary tops out at 19 million dollars in the 2020-2021 season and that's a lot. But his early production lived up to the money and his absence showed the Knicks missing a dimension that only he offers. Hardaway is the team's best shooter and fastbreak player. He's young enough to fit the timeline and has been a good fit with KP. He also has been most impressive in fourth quarters which is a great sign. I hated the signing initially but the Knicks have gotten value out of it and health is the only questionmark I've got. He should stick around and hopefully continue to develop defensively.
13. Frank Ntilikina - It was always going to be about patience with this kid, a problem when other lottery PG's have been given bigger roles and produced. Frank's handle needs improvement, jumper needs consistency and while he flashes great instincts as a passer he also makes rookie TO's that even irk even keeled Walt Clyde Frazier during telecasts. He has flashed ability in all of these areas though. When his confidence is there, he attacks more and starts to have a lot more success. But recently he has appeared more afraid to make a mistake and get benched than to go for the homerun. Blame his mentality, fatigue, skills or coaching...it's something that needs to be worked on. So why is he still listed so high? Frank's the same age as college freshman this season. He's a 6'6 PG with a 7'0 wingspan who has elite upside as a defender. He pairs well with KP as they create an inside-outside defensive compliment that eases the burden on everyone else. With development in his offensive game and a weight training program, his upside is scary but whether he reaches those peaks is a question mark. You can't trade someone so young, with tools like that just because he isn't giving you massive early returns. His defense alone has made his on/off splits look strong and games like his near triple-double in Dallas despite being so raw are the types that make him an obvious keeper.
14. KP - He'll get the supermax some day and it better be the Knicks that pay him. KP is still just 22 and when he's playing well the entire team looks better. His defensive ability is ahead of his offense, a trait missing in most of his peers. That two-way upside makes him an impact player even on poor shooting nights. Against the Wolves, he single handedly sparked the defense with 6 blocks in just the second half. There are issues for sure; he's still struggling to identify doubles and which pass to make out of them. He forces some jumpers and fatigue has plagued each of his first three seasons. None of that erases the fact that he's a young developing allstar type who looks the part of a franchise centerpiece. Phil Jackson might have ranked him higher on the list, but I don't think anyone else would.
Honorable Mention: Trey Burke - Trey Burke follows a line of G-League hype players who are unlikely to pan out but are worth a look in case they just might. He joins the likes of Ricky Ledo, Langston Galloway and Chasson Randle as guys from the "why not" column. No one's trading for him but he's on the roster and I really would like to see him get some shots. He's probably more Travis Wear than Linsanity but you know what...why not?
Miles Davis
Prince of Darkness
I never realized how many people we’ve got that we could trade, most of these players won’t be here in a few years. It’s gonna be similar to how Melo was the constant within the Knicks for those few years. Except this time it’ll be KP,Tim, Noah(due to his contract), and Frank(hopefully they’ll be patient).
storyteller
Veteran
When you lay it all out, the whole "youth focus" looks fugazi. Frank, KP and Tim are the only youth guaranteed to still be here 2 years from now. The rest have either not played enough to prove they should stick around or seem to be low ceiling players. The faster the Knicks are out of the race and go Sacramento Kings on the rest of the season, the better. At least then we can get real looks at Dotson, Willy, Burke and even Baker...whether people think they'll stick or not, we'd be in a better position to judge by actually seeing what happens when they compete with pro's for large samples. A handful of starts or spot minutes isn't a real way to evaluate these cats.
