4 Mistakes You Make When You Talk About Islam (And Religion in General)

[Exiled Martian]

A slight side track from the main discussion in this thread.... Here is a plausible Question Fellas..... When things go "right" for people, they often praise God, and thank God for what they've been given. (And, God knows that people on my facebook seem to thank him an awful lot.) I'm not much of a Bible/ Quran scholar, but isn't it possible for the Devil to cause things? (From a religious perspective - obviously, if you do not believe, then neither is possible.) i.e. Someone wins the lottery & thanks God. But, then they wind up bankrupt in 10 years & miserable. Perhaps winning wasn't the work of God? Perhaps God was completely hands off and just before the person who was going to donate 1/2 of the money to charities won, there was a bit of intervention. Maybe another person miraculously went into remission from cancer, not because God wanted them to live, but because the devil realized that the person had a net negative effect on the world.
Can the Devil actually do stuff? Or is it just God who's allowed to manipulate outcomes? And, if the Devil can't manipulate things, then how is he able to tempt us?..........This Devil Vs God ethos always had me like



My take with GODs in GENERAL (bear in mind I'm a border line atheist/agnostic bruddah.... so apologies for offending believers in advance) is that the deities of human religions are so petty in their ways, so limited in their thoughts and actions, and their mythologies so convoluted and contradicting, that they simply cannot exist. Do powerful entities, which would appear to us as godlike, exist? Perhaps. It's a very large Universe, and who knows, it very well may not be the only one. Other life forms may have gotten started billions of years ahead of us. Imagine what that could mean - our technology expands nearly exponentially, as does the quantity of information we generate. Nature kind of takes its time with evolution. It doesn't really have direction, it just kind of mosies along. We have the ability to give direction and speed to our own progress, as would other sentient life forms. Imagine how far we could get if given another billion years. We would certainly not be homo sapien anymore; to remain in this form for that long would be a pathetic shame, an affront to progress. Technological enhancements to augment our biological systems will come. Some will reject them and remain in the past; others will accept progress. A billion years...we could surely appear as gods to our past selves, here in 2013. Would we be gods? No. Just powerful "lifeforms," no more gods than a person showing fire to a chimp.

But our amusing little mythologies, and their creator entities? IMO their existences are confined to the minds of those who continue to envision them.
it's funny - so much validity is lent to the Christian God, or to Islam's Allah, or to the deities of the Hindu faith, or any other mainstream ones I'm leaving out.

But the Greek gods? We learn about them as old mythology, as amusing stories of the ancient world, and nothing more. But don't worry, we're really sure that this Christianity thing is the real deal.
Sighhhhhh I guess some day, Jesus and Friends will once again be taught in schools - right along with the lessons about Ra and Zeus.....

Sorry for the long ramble.....point I was tryna make.... as an atheist-agnostic... which to sum up the above is that I don't 'FULLY' believe a god exists, but I cannot honestly say that one day I could turn around, find myself facing god, he proves himself to me, and return with 'you're a crock, go away you crazy'. If faced with physical, sound evidence, like a science... well, it would fit with following logic then and I could only then accept it. Thus, if this O.G in the sky wants me to believeeeeeeeee, then he'll appear to me... while sober, else I'd write it off as my creative imagination. He has my demands... else, I'll keep living my life as I am, as hell, if this guy is anything the stories make him out to be, I'm a part of his plan... though if this all proves to me correct, his plan will seemingly point me toward the depths of the underworld ........Life isn't fair brehs, it obviously wasn't designed to be fair IF it is at all 'designed' that is, and even then, the very nature of life... life's a bytch . Also pointless, the universe needs not to be riddled with life, it really does nothing. It'd get along just fine without a single living organism. But life, well... happened. The point of life is to live, do everything an organism can do. The smarter ones can do more, the simple ones.. well they do what they do. To live is the goal, to procreate is the objective. To spread is the ultimate desire. That's why some species can adapt, some get wings, some get to infect animals that can do everything collectively... to spread and increase numbers is all a lifeform ultimate is programmed to do. We'll take over the universe, hopefully... or die while confined here, either at the hands of nature or at our own hands. Regardless... why stay cooped up on this rock? Heck I'd go back to Mars if I wasn't still exiled for living that wild red lifestyle alil to hardcore

 

[Jesus Shuttlesworth]

No, it isn't.

The problem we're running into is that you're already presupposing a god. Assuming the universe was "created" itself implies a conscious "creator". Defining a god into existence, and calling that evidence is not intellectually honest.

Atheists generally agree with the science, and the science doesn't say the "universe appearing from nothing", as you put it. What atheists reject is the notion that the universe must have been created by some sort of intelligent entity. It didn't. There are several scientific ideas about how it did come about, and none of those contain a supernatural being. In science, we explain things by referring to what we already know or understand, and by invoking God, you're attempting to answer a question with another mystery. It's a complete non-answer, because there is no objective way to see whether or not the claim is true.

Besides, for every single natural occurrence mankind attributed to a God, there turned out to be a completely rational, non-supernatural answer. What makes you think this question is any different?

The question isn't whether or not God exists. That's silly. Of course God exists. The question isn't even whether or not you accept God's existence. That doesn't matter.

The "debate" about religion has nothing to do with whether or not God exists. The debate stems from whether or not this creator sent messengers in the form of men.

But to deny the creator is to deny the creation which is illogical and quite frankly insane.

Does the creation not exist? Are you not a part of it? How do you explain that?

As I said in another thread, automobiles were intelligently designed. A lot of research, enginuity, careful calculations and craftsmanship went into it. And in 20 years, we call that fine piece of machinery a piece of junk.

The universe has existed for, some say billions of years. Planets, stars all the way down to cells and atoms. Faaarrr more intricate than the intelligently designed automobile.

So your "argument" is that over 100 years of development, research, improvements, advances in technology and engineering will only yield a product good for 20 years but an infinite series of random, uncalculated "accidents" have allowed the universe to somehow sustain itself and all life forms within for billions of years.

So intelligent design only gets you about 0.000000001 of what random accidents get you. So our intelligent designs are actually full blown fukkin retarded x1000. This is your position.

No. The truth is this great and powerful force that has kept the universe expanding and preventing it from destruction for all this time, the force you acknowledge but refuse to name, we call it God. You call it nothing. Change that word and we're in full agreement.

But stop being ridiculous. You may not believe God spoke to man but to deny your creator is completely asinine, illogical, unintelligent, unobservant, and quite frankly insane.

You study the creation, become fascinated with some of its wonderful marvels, acknowledge all of these happenings throughout the universe, and then... attribute it all to nothing? How ass backwards is that?

But what do I expect talking to a scientific sheep? After all, you don't conduct experiments, you just have faith in the men who do. Just like religious people have faith in their prophets.

Like I said religion isn't about God, it's about what people say about God. Your leader (yes leader, people we follow are called leaders) said God doesn't exist. I can argue that a statement like that takes some presupposing as well.

But until you can tell me how the universe was created without deviating from science and relying on basically magic (bu bu but only religious people believe in fairy tales). Your whole position is a fairy tale because it all begins with magic.

And saying you don't know is just that, you not knowing. So that means you're speaking without knowledge, by definition, thus rendering every word you say completely worthless.

But this is just common sense here. Ironically common sense often does little in these scenarios. Most people ignore the infinite amount of external evidence for God and only truly find Him internally. So you continue to search the stars for matters of the heart and soul. When you make discoveries we say "praise be to God" while you say "nothing did it again".

 

[Jesus Shuttlesworth]

A slight side track from the main discussion in this thread.... Here is a plausible Question Fellas..... When things go "right" for people, they often praise God, and thank God for what they've been given. (And, God knows that people on my facebook seem to thank him an awful lot.) I'm not much of a Bible/ Quran scholar, but isn't it possible for the Devil to cause things? (From a religious perspective - obviously, if you do not believe, then neither is possible.) i.e. Someone wins the lottery & thanks God. But, then they wind up bankrupt in 10 years & miserable. Perhaps winning wasn't the work of God? Perhaps God was completely hands off and just before the person who was going to donate 1/2 of the money to charities won, there was a bit of intervention. Maybe another person miraculously went into remission from cancer, not because God wanted them to live, but because the devil realized that the person had a net negative effect on the world.
Can the Devil actually do stuff? Or is it just God who's allowed to manipulate outcomes? And, if the Devil can't manipulate things, then how is he able to tempt us?..........This Devil Vs God ethos always had me like



My take with GODs in GENERAL (bear in mind I'm a border line atheist/agnostic bruddah.... so apologies for offending believers in advance) is that the deities of human religions are so petty in their ways, so limited in their thoughts and actions, and their mythologies so convoluted and contradicting, that they simply cannot exist. Do powerful entities, which would appear to us as godlike, exist? Perhaps. It's a very large Universe, and who knows, it very well may not be the only one. Other life forms may have gotten started billions of years ahead of us. Imagine what that could mean - our technology expands nearly exponentially, as does the quantity of information we generate. Nature kind of takes its time with evolution. It doesn't really have direction, it just kind of mosies along. We have the ability to give direction and speed to our own progress, as would other sentient life forms. Imagine how far we could get if given another billion years. We would certainly not be homo sapien anymore; to remain in this form for that long would be a pathetic shame, an affront to progress. Technological enhancements to augment our biological systems will come. Some will reject them and remain in the past; others will accept progress. A billion years...we could surely appear as gods to our past selves, here in 2013. Would we be gods? No. Just powerful "lifeforms," no more gods than a person showing fire to a chimp.

But our amusing little mythologies, and their creator entities? IMO their existences are confined to the minds of those who continue to envision them.
it's funny - so much validity is lent to the Christian God, or to Islam's Allah, or to the deities of the Hindu faith, or any other mainstream ones I'm leaving out.

But the Greek gods? We learn about them as old mythology, as amusing stories of the ancient world, and nothing more. But don't worry, we're really sure that this Christianity thing is the real deal.
Sighhhhhh I guess some day, Jesus and Friends will once again be taught in schools - right along with the lessons about Ra and Zeus.....

Sorry for the long ramble.....point I was tryna make.... as an atheist-agnostic... which to sum up the above is that I don't 'FULLY' believe a god exists, but I cannot honestly say that one day I could turn around, find myself facing god, he proves himself to me, and return with 'you're a crock, go away you crazy'. If faced with physical, sound evidence, like a science... well, it would fit with following logic then and I could only then accept it. Thus, if this O.G in the sky wants me to believeeeeeeeee, then he'll appear to me... while sober, else I'd write it off as my creative imagination. He has my demands... else, I'll keep living my life as I am, as hell, if this guy is anything the stories make him out to be, I'm a part of his plan... though if this all proves to me correct, his plan will seemingly point me toward the depths of the underworld ........Life isn't fair brehs, it obviously wasn't designed to be fair IF it is at all 'designed' that is, and even then, the very nature of life... life's a bytch . Also pointless, the universe needs not to be riddled with life, it really does nothing. It'd get along just fine without a single living organism. But life, well... happened. The point of life is to live, do everything an organism can do. The smarter ones can do more, the simple ones.. well they do what they do. To live is the goal, to procreate is the objective. To spread is the ultimate desire. That's why some species can adapt, some get wings, some get to infect animals that can do everything collectively... to spread and increase numbers is all a lifeform ultimate is programmed to do. We'll take over the universe, hopefully... or die while confined here, either at the hands of nature or at our own hands. Regardless... why stay cooped up on this rock? Heck I'd go back to Mars if I wasn't still exiled for living that wild red lifestyle alil to hardcore

Based on your post, you may as well become full blown atheist at his point. But the reason has nothing to with God and everything to do with your perception.

God doesn't exist to make people happy or give them whatever they ask for. Some religious folk may believe that but I'll be the first to tell you a lot of religious folk aren't the most knowledgable, religiously or otherwise.

You also seem to have a limited perception of God and based on the things you said in your post, I would have my doubts as well. But I disagree with your entire concept. For example, you say things like God is "in the sky" and "meet face to face" and meter your demands. This is ridiculous.

I also wanted to inform you about world religions as it appears you're uninformed or at least misinformed. You brought up Greek gods and to be honest, it seems that's your idea of "God". A physical form, probably a white guy with a beard and toga. But comparing Greek gods to the creator shows complete lack of understanding. What Greek god created he universe? According t the Greeks, none of them. So obviously we're not talking about the same thing. When I say "God" I'm referring to the almighty creator. When you and the Greeks say "god" you're referring to physical beings supposedly greater than man. As one misinformed soul once said in HL "we are gods to insects." So we created insects? Clearly he was confused.

People a over the world worship God. They worship differently based on the teachings I their prophets and in some cases clergy but they still worship the same creator. There's only one creator. People differ in their opinions and beliefs about this one creator but there's still only one.

Jews call this creator Yahweh, Christians say this creator had a son. Muslims call this creator Allah. But it's all the same creator.

I've said it again and again, religion isn't about belief in God, that's common sense. Religion is about belief in what men have said about God.

Religion aside, can you explain the existence of the universe? Because if you say God didn't create it, I would love to hear your alternative view...

 

[Exiled Martian]

Based on your post, you may as well become full blown atheist at his point. But the reason has nothing to with God and everything to do with your perception.

God doesn't exist to make people happy or give them whatever they ask for. Some religious folk may believe that but I'll be the first to tell you a lot of religious folk aren't the most knowledgable, religiously or otherwise.

You also seem to have a limited perception of God and based on the things you said in your post, I would have my doubts as well. But I disagree with your entire concept. For example, you say things like God is "in the sky" and "meet face to face" and meter your demands. This is ridiculous.

I also wanted to inform you about world religions as it appears you're uninformed or at least misinformed. You brought up Greek gods and to be honest, it seems that's your idea of "God". A physical form, probably a white guy with a beard and toga. But comparing Greek gods to the creator shows complete lack of understanding. What Greek god created he universe? According t the Greeks, none of them. So obviously we're not talking about the same thing. When I say "God" I'm referring to the almighty creator. When you and the Greeks say "god" you're referring to physical beings supposedly greater than man. As one misinformed soul once said in HL "we are gods to insects." So we created insects? Clearly he was confused.

People a over the world worship God. They worship differently based on the teachings I their prophets and in some cases clergy but they still worship the same creator. There's only one creator. People differ in their opinions and beliefs about this one creator but there's still only one.

Jews call this creator Yahweh, Christians say this creator had a son. Muslims call this creator Allah. But it's all the same creator.

I've said it again and again, religion isn't about belief in God, that's common sense. Religion is about belief in what men have said about God.

Religion aside, can you explain the existence of the universe? Because if you say God didn't create it, I would love to hear your alternative view...

I am who I am... (& thats word to my Reeboks). LikeI said & it was clearly evident as I made a point of bolding the apologetic aspect of my atheist/agnostically driven posting, because I knew sooner or later an individual such as yourself would respond to me in an incoherent manner i.e only nitpicking certain passages of passages of literature from my post & not looking at the grand pictorial collage in my Reeboks per se. The Greek (& Roman) mythology as far as worship goes rings shockingly true (I suggest you get acquainted with the history channel) for an era long gone... you do realise that time is the best teller right & by BEST I mean stories will be changing, script flipping, Word wielding are invetiable traits 2000 years from now for our many mainstreeam religions etc . Why did you ignore the example I gave of how a futuristic religious people will view the faiths of our time down the line? its the same concept with the ancient greeks & whatever the heck our Neandarthal ancestors abided to as far as worshipping went..maybe the great wheel was their lord & saviour who knows what deity they seeked solace in.....apply yourself in thought friend & ponder over the consequences of all those Religious lineages through various bygone eras. To some extent it is all metaphysical...also I did not imply that god was a physical man like being when making a point about the Greek gods Vs present Deities etc...i.e a white Toga wearing cac with a silky beard looking all wise & ever omnipotent).....that was merely a statement made under the guiseof sarcasm with a hint of tongue in cheek humour that was frnakly misconstrued breh.

Come on lets face it, at the root of it all as far as Belief& FAITH goes is that us humans are afraid of life being meaningless (post death)....sooooo in comes Religion now lo & behold to give us some form of assurance & we now have this after life enigma to cling onto & we find some comfort in knowing that there is apparently a sequel in stor for us all after Earth..........I swear these questions have been raised and pondered for literally two thousand years...and they are STILL being pondered today. Just in the last half century, Alvin Plantinga and Charles Hartshorne have written important arguments on the subject, and it is as alive today in philosophical circles as it was for Thomas Aquinas. So the point is simple: If the great thinkers of our time consider this subject important enough and legitimate enough to continue to debate it, why do some of you kids think the answer is obvious? The problem of evil, the proposed self-contradiction of omnipotence, the concept of benevolence (Gods main attributes) - all of those are fascinating discussions that expand our perspective and deepen our ability to understand the most significant issue there could be to us & we use them to try to "win" an internet debate, and smugly act as if the answer is obvious?


Religion in some context has always been an integral part of human life. Whether it was mythical stories, belief in multiple gods controlling every aspect of the world, or simply believing in a creator of some sort, either just one that made life possible, or one that controls every aspect of life.
The "Heavens" have always been included in these beliefs, and an Underworld of some sort was equally present. Superstitions and myths revolved around how to prevent an eternal life in the Underworld. The Heavens were the play place of the Gods, located in the vastness above Earth - space. That's why for almost all of eternity, the gods were associated with the motion of the stars in the night sky. A lack of understanding of the universe (my half hearted answer to your penultimate question in your post) Universe essentially led to a deity existing for every aspect that humans didn't have an understanding of, or a singular god controlling all those aspects. But the root of all that, is because we can think. And because we view ourselves as so radically different than the rest of the animal kingdom, we tell ourselves we are special. Because we are special, we must be the product of something(s) even more special. And because we are special, there must be a reason to be special, and thus there must be a goal to reach..... As I said earlier, it's not that the human species is afraid to die, it's that individuals are afraid that life isn't special. So, we tell ourselves there is a reason we have to continue living, and that's where the fear of dying comes from. We are pushed into believing that we will experience some kind of afterlife if we live a good life, so there is anxiety in the notion of death because we aren't sure if what we've done in life, no matter how old, has been enough to win that prize at the end. It's essentially a fear of being forgotten. Humanity refuses to acknowledge the possibility that life is well... rather pointless. The goal of life in all of the animal kingdom is to procreate, and essentially exist in a balance of life. Some are more mindless and are the food for the more intelligent creatures. But the goal of all life, whether mindful or not, is simply to spread the seed of life, to increase population numbers, and to continue to live. Until we experience another species that is just as capable as we are, we'll continue to live in the delusion that we are special. That's why I hope some of the more ancient stories of gods visiting the people are true, because I'll take that to mean we were visited by aliens far more intelligent than early man (and maybe man in general). And maybe, like typical humans to what we don't understand, we'll piss these visitors off and start the clock to intergalactic war.


My Final statement : All I'm saying is You can't be Omnipotent and Benevolent and choose not to act


Also To address your last comment in your post, I fail to see where did I even mention anything bout God NOT creating the Milky way and the other celestial heavenly bodies??

EDIT: I only just noticed your Username sooooo I guess on that note its safe to say this that this won't end with a legitimate compromise, if so please disregard my back & forth to mean any signifiance to you Breh

 

[Jesus Shuttlesworth]

I am who I am... (& thats word to my Reeboks). LikeI said & it was clearly evident as I made a point of bolding the apologetic aspect of my atheist/agnostically driven posting, because I knew sooner or later an individual such as yourself would respond to me in an incoherent manner i.e only nitpicking certain passages of passages of literature from my post & not looking at the grand pictorial collage in my Reeboks per se. The Greek (& Roman) mythology as far as worship goes rings shockingly true (I suggest you get acquainted with the history channel) for an era long gone... you do realise that time is the best teller right & by BEST I mean stories will be changing, script flipping, Word wielding are invetiable traits 2000 years from now for our many mainstreeam religions etc . Why did you ignore the example I gave of how a futuristic religious people will view the faiths of our time down the line? its the same concept with the ancient greeks & whatever the heck our Neandarthal ancestors abided to as far as worshipping went..maybe the great wheel was their lord & saviour who knows what deity they seeked solace in.....apply yourself in thought friend & ponder over the consequences of all those Religious lineages through various bygone eras. To some extent it is all metaphysical...also I did not imply that god was a physical man like being when making a point about the Greek gods Vs present Deities etc...i.e a white Toga wearing cac with a silky beard looking all wise & ever omnipotent).....that was merely a statement made under the guiseof sarcasm with a hint of tongue in cheek humour that was frnakly misconstrued breh.

Come on lets face it, at the root of it all as far as Belief& FAITH goes is that us humans are afraid of life being meaningless (post death)....sooooo in comes Religion now lo & behold to give us some form of assurance & we now have this after life enigma to cling onto & we find some comfort in knowing that there is apparently a sequel in stor for us all after Earth..........I swear these questions have been raised and pondered for literally two thousand years...and they are STILL being pondered today. Just in the last half century, Alvin Plantinga and Charles Hartshorne have written important arguments on the subject, and it is as alive today in philosophical circles as it was for Thomas Aquinas. So the point is simple: If the great thinkers of our time consider this subject important enough and legitimate enough to continue to debate it, why do some of you kids think the answer is obvious? The problem of evil, the proposed self-contradiction of omnipotence, the concept of benevolence (Gods main attributes) - all of those are fascinating discussions that expand our perspective and deepen our ability to understand the most significant issue there could be to us & we use them to try to "win" an internet debate, and smugly act as if the answer is obvious?


Religion in some context has always been an integral part of human life. Whether it was mythical stories, belief in multiple gods controlling every aspect of the world, or simply believing in a creator of some sort, either just one that made life possible, or one that controls every aspect of life.
The "Heavens" have always been included in these beliefs, and an Underworld of some sort was equally present. Superstitions and myths revolved around how to prevent an eternal life in the Underworld. The Heavens were the play place of the Gods, located in the vastness above Earth - space. That's why for almost all of eternity, the gods were associated with the motion of the stars in the night sky. A lack of understanding of the universe (my half hearted answer to your penultimate question in your post) Universe essentially led to a deity existing for every aspect that humans didn't have an understanding of, or a singular god controlling all those aspects. But the root of all that, is because we can think. And because we view ourselves as so radically different than the rest of the animal kingdom, we tell ourselves we are special. Because we are special, we must be the product of something(s) even more special. And because we are special, there must be a reason to be special, and thus there must be a goal to reach..... As I said earlier, it's not that the human species is afraid to die, it's that individuals are afraid that life isn't special. So, we tell ourselves there is a reason we have to continue living, and that's where the fear of dying comes from. We are pushed into believing that we will experience some kind of afterlife if we live a good life, so there is anxiety in the notion of death because we aren't sure if what we've done in life, no matter how old, has been enough to win that prize at the end. It's essentially a fear of being forgotten. Humanity refuses to acknowledge the possibility that life is well... rather pointless. The goal of life in all of the animal kingdom is to procreate, and essentially exist in a balance of life. Some are more mindless and are the food for the more intelligent creatures. But the goal of all life, whether mindful or not, is simply to spread the seed of life, to increase population numbers, and to continue to live. Until we experience another species that is just as capable as we are, we'll continue to live in the delusion that we are special. That's why I hope some of the more ancient stories of gods visiting the people are true, because I'll take that to mean we were visited by aliens far more intelligent than early man (and maybe man in general). And maybe, like typical humans to what we don't understand, we'll piss these visitors off and start the clock to intergalactic war.


My Final statement : All I'm saying is You can't be Omnipotent and Benevolent and choose not to act


Also To address your last comment in your post, I fail to see where did I even mention anything bout God NOT creating the Milky way and the other celestial heavenly bodies??

EDIT: I only just noticed your Username sooooo I guess ont hat its safe to say this that it wont end with in a legitimate compromise....on that note please disregard my back & forth to mean any signifiance to you Breh

First things first, Jesus Shuttlesworth is a fictional character from the movie He Got Game, portrayed by the man in my avi, Ray Allen. It has nothing to do with religion. I haven't been a Christian for a day in my life.

Now to your point about future civilizations. Greek mythology died with the ancient Greeks just like Roman mythology died with the ancient Romans and Egyptian mythology died with the ancient Egyptians.

How can you compare that to something that has been around AT LEAST 2000 years, depending on who you talk to. But I've already told you all these people worship the same creator so we're talking much more than 2000 years. The God of Muhammad is the God of Jesus. The God of Jesus is the God of Moses. The God of Moses is the God of Abraham, etc. So you're comparing a couple hundred years, if that, to thousands and thousands of years with claims all the way back to the first man, Adam. Muhammad worshiped the same God as Adam so the creator I'm speaking of was worshiped thousands of years before your Greeks and thousands of years after your Greeks. So that comparison is laughable at best.

That doesn't even touch on the fact that the "gods" the Greeks worshiped were no rivals at all to the one creator, as no Greek ever even bothered to claim any of their gods were responsible for the creation of the universe. There is no comparison at all, in terms of God. Religion and rituals and anything else that comes along with "religion", fine. But Zeus, the "god of thunder" to God the creator of the universe, thunder lightning and everything else included? No. Like I said, you clearly have a skewed perception of God.

Finally, to your last point. You say you never said God didn't create the universe? So you agree that He did? I'll ask my question again without the assumption at the end: Religion aside, can you explain the existence of the universe?

 

[Exiled Martian]

First things first, Jesus Shuttlesworth is a fictional character from the movie He Got Game, portrayed by the man in my avi, Ray Allen. It has nothing to do with religion. I haven't been a Christian for a day in my life.

Now to your point about future civilizations. Greek mythology died with the ancient Greeks just like Roman mythology died with the ancient Romans and Egyptian mythology died with the ancient Egyptians.

How can you compare that to something that has been around AT LEAST 2000 years, depending on who you talk to. But I've already told you all these people worship the same creator so we're talking much more than 2000 years. The God of Muhammad is the God of Jesus. The God of Jesus is the God of Moses. The God of Moses is the God of Abraham, etc. So you're comparing a couple hundred years, if that, to thousands and thousands of years with claims all the way back to the first man, Adam. Muhammad worshiped the same God as Adam so the creator I'm speaking of was worshiped thousands of years before your Greeks and thousands of years after your Greeks. So that comparison is laughable at best.

That doesn't even touch on the fact that the "gods" the Greeks worshiped were no rivals at all to the one creator, as no Greek ever even bothered to claim any of their gods were responsible for the creation of the universe. There is no comparison at all, in terms of God. Religion and rituals and anything else that comes along with "religion", fine. But Zeus, the "god of thunder" to God the creator of the universe, thunder lightning and everything else included? No. Like I said, you clearly have a skewed perception of God.

Finally, to your last point. You say you never said God didn't create the universe? So you agree that He did? I'll ask my question again without the assumption at the end: Religion aside, can you explain the existence of the universe?

Appreciate you taking time out to explain the origin of your username, in that case my bad for making bias assumptions... now lets ensue with some talking points shall we?...So like I said before TIME will be always be the ultimate teller & weaver of tales long after me and you are fossilised goods waiting to be chemically excavated & harvested to power the vehicles of the future. Ok so can you tell me with 100% conviciton that another 2000 years down the line there won't be some form of rebuttal against certain preached doctorine of the many religions of the world now? just kinda like how how there is now for the past 2000 years or so. Sorry to sound cliche but history will repeat itself albeit with slightly altered variations & context to the story due to the passing of time! I noticed you using the monogamous religions as your core backing whilst somewhat mocking the polygamous ones i.e your discrediting points about the Greek/Roman way of worship (which by the way I emphasised was used as tonge in cheek humour)....

You know I read a nice article couple weeks back - basically a pilot suddenly collapsed or had a heart attack, something of that sort. One of the passengers, who did have a pilot's license, but not for that type of plane or size, told his family to "Start praying hard."...Evidently God just killed a guy, terrified a family, and now he wants to hear them plea for their lives right?

At another random time I saw a bumper sticker on a car that said "Member of the Presidential Prayer Group". A prayer group? Why do we need lots of people to pray for something? Will God only do the right thing if he gets enough votes? Is God a democracy? What's the point of praying if God already does what is just, at least in his mind?
And as always needs saying, to those who say that God permits Satan to exist, and permits him to go out and about and cause problems:

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God??

I swear down its like people romanticize the notion that having a devil around lets us see the difference between good and evil? SO WHAT??? What the hell is the big deal with us having to experience evil and suffering on a regular basis? Why is that viewed as beneficial forma religious point of view? The only context in which I SEE it beneficial is if we are viewed as high-level primates, surviving in a world which is hostile and indifferent to our existence. In such a place, being able to endure hardship has value.
Oh no but existing within a place overseen by an all-powerful, supposedly benevolent entity, there is no value in experiencing suffering. Exquisitely detailed knowledge of suffering's hazards and downfalls could easily be made available to us, and we'd full-well appreciate life. Hell, we could just as easily be capable of fully appreciating good things without having to know anything of suffering. To say that happiness and love cannot be appreciated without knowing sadness and hatred is merely assigning duality (word to Jigga on this) where none needs to exist. It's simply a way of rationalizing the existence of evil, in the face of the idea of a deity with the power to end it without lifting a finger....seriously doesn't any of this strike you as alittle strange/odd? or am I just merely wasting time bashing the FUKK outta this keyboard trying get through to you breh? Can't you clearly see where my curiosity/facination for Faith & its somewhat flawed entirety stems from? Like you said.....3 monogamous religions all sharing the SAME divine creator preaching the SAME message....open your mind & analyse how it looks

Ok you want an answer that epitomises how the Universe took shape here is two theories for you.......

1) God created the universe because of cocaine. Cocaine is a plant, it needs to grow somewhere and so God created the Earth, other planets and moons (even though cocaine doesn't grow on the moon). Cocaine is a plant, it needs water and so God created the Oceans and lakes (even though ocean water kills cocaine plants). Cocaine is a plant, it needs fertilizer and so God created various plants and animals so they can all die and become manure just so Our Lord can do lines. Finally cocaine is a plant, it does not grow by itself. So God created Adam and Eve to harvest the leaves and when Mr. Lord finally got his stash of cocaine, he went on a rampage that resulted in a global flood that killed almost everything on the entire planet. He had similar rampages in 1348-1350

Jokes (& Religion aside)... the Actual Factual answer currently ELUDES us for BOTH sides (Science & its older step brother Religion) to this day ... except one has got a theory & is striving to push for more intel on the topic (I'll let you guess who ) whilst tthe other...well you know is full of praises & prayers via ways of the dated scriptures......anyways moving to serious shiiittt... Here is some food for thought,so peep this:

2) A singularity is when a star collapes and a blackhole is created. Everything is sucked into that blackhole, matter, light, time, even space itself. Its unknown whether or not anything can come back out of a blackhole, but scientists speculate that it can't. An easy way to put a singularity is 'everything into nothing. Now what happens when you reverse that process? .....Nothing into everything'. Basiclly, thats the reverse of a singularity, where time, matter, space and everything comes back out.
But what caused this 'big bang'? NOBODY on any side with proper PROOF really knows yet, we can only speculate to how the universe was formed. The best we (the logical thinkers of our times) can say is that the fundamental field in nature is the gravitational field, and out of this and its weird quantum properties, the stage was somehow set for everything else we can identify in the physical world including time and space. We do not, however, understand what the gravitational field 'is' in any real fundamental way. We know how it operates but that is not exactly the same as understanding its actual nature. Physicists who are investigating String Theory are trying to understand what gravity is, but we will have to wait for them to give us some concrete predictions we can go out and test to confirm if their ideas are on the mark or no...meanwhile on other side of the fence we see signs such as 'Property of God, Made By God, InThe Name Of God' yadda yadda yadda...top it off with a grateful Amen for everything & anything.. So I guess it all sounds very plausible when a mass onset of cluelessness englufs the people eyyyy....

EDIT: OR you could look up Dunne's theory ......... It is the idea that time (and, by extension, humanity) exists both simultaneously and linearly as like a book. Any given moment the entirety of a book exists in itself but at any given moment we can only read one page at a time. The other pages, while existing simultaneously with the one we are reading, remain outside our consciousness. If we could somehow read every page of the book at once, or be able to experience the book in its entirety in a single moment then we would be closer to a real experience of it.

 

[Mr. Negative]

I would have figured the biggest mistake was "I'm right and you're wrong."

 

[NoMayo15]

The question isn't whether or not God exists. That's silly. Of course God exists.

Clearly, this is up for some debate. Not everyone agrees with your premise that a god exists, so it wouldn't make sense to go any further.

But to deny the creator is to deny the creation which is illogical and quite frankly insane.

Does the creation not exist? Are you not a part of it? How do you explain that?

I've already addressed this. You're presupposing the universe was created when you call it creation. Sure, creation exists, but its from the organisms that live within the universe. The universe itself does not equal creation. It's perfectly possible for the universe to have always existed in some other form.

Answer this for me. Do you use creator and God interchangeably? If so, why? .... How do you know the cause of our universe is necessarily a god?

So your "argument" is that over 100 years of development, research, improvements, advances in technology and engineering will only yield a product good for 20 years but an infinite series of random, uncalculated "accidents" have allowed the universe to somehow sustain itself and all life forms within for billions of years.

Well some products, yes. Other products, as a result of human advances in technology, have lasted much longer. What difference does that make?

So intelligent design only gets you about 0.000000001 of what random accidents get you. So our intelligent designs are actually full blown fukkin retarded x1000. This is your position.

Numbers pulled directly from your ass. But yes, some times a natural event can result in something beautiful. That doesn't mean an earthquake will build a car, but depending on your perspective, not every "creation" is a result of a conscious mind.

No. The truth is this great and powerful force that has kept the universe expanding and preventing it from destruction for all this time, the force you acknowledge but refuse to name, we call it God. You call it nothing. Change that word and we're in full agreement.

I don't call it nothing. I call it the laws of nature ... it's physics, calculus, chemistry... everything working together, not towards a goal, but just happening. It's possible that the result of that could be life as we know it. Throw in things which do have goals like living, and procreating, then it's feasible to see how life has sustained itself for so long.

But stop being ridiculous. You may not believe God spoke to man but to deny your creator is completely asinine, illogical, unintelligent, unobservant, and quite frankly insane.

The bigger question is why you insist on calling such a force "God", when that label carries so much baggage along with it? You already concede that the mythos associated with the label is at least understandable to disbelieve in. When you assume the creator is a god, you bring all that other stuff too.

You study the creation, become fascinated with some of its wonderful marvels, acknowledge all of these happenings throughout the universe, and then... attribute it all to nothing? How ass backwards is that?

Already explained this earlier. I don't attribute it to nothing. Atheists/skeptics & the scientific minded generally don't.

But what do I expect talking to a scientific sheep? After all, you don't conduct experiments, you just have faith in the men who do. Just like religious people have faith in their prophets.

No, it's not the same at all. First of all, you don't even understand the science you're discussing. Two, it's not exactly faith when it's a process that is the single most reliable method mankind has in discovering the TRUTH about the universe. The fact of the matter is, everything we know and will ever know is the direct result of the scientific method and NOT religion. I don't have to conduct the experiments myself, because I know it's not the word of just one or two men. It's built upon others trying to prove the hypotheses of their colleagues wrong through peer review. To put it frankly, science works, bytch.

Religion on the other hand takes the position of "X happened, God is the cause, don't you dare question it or face a terrible consequence". How is that ANYTHING like a pathway towards truth? It's sad that you actually think you are in the best position to decide what is true or not because you're religious.

Like I said religion isn't about God, it's about what people say about God. Your leader (yes leader, people we follow are called leaders) said God doesn't exist. I can argue that a statement like that takes some presupposing as well.

Um, who is my leader? And sure, you could argue that... but that's not what I'm arguing, so don't put words in my mouth, or say that I agree 100% with someone else. I have my own mind, my own thoughts, and I can draw my own conclusions. Argue against what I'm saying. Don't strawman me to take a position of someone whom you think represents me.

But until you can tell me how the universe was created without deviating from science and relying on basically magic (bu bu but only religious people believe in fairy tales). Your whole position is a fairy tale because it all begins with magic.

No, it doesn't. Argument from Ignorance.

And saying you don't know is just that, you not knowing. So that means you're speaking without knowledge, by definition, thus rendering every word you say completely worthless. But this is just common sense here. Ironically common sense often does little in these scenarios. Most people ignore the infinite amount of external evidence for God and only truly find Him internally.

SMH, what would you say is external evidence for god?

 

[Jesus Shuttlesworth]

Clearly, this is up for some debate. Not everyone agrees with your premise that a god exists, so it wouldn't make sense to go any further.

So we should agree with your premise that God doesn't exist?

I've already addressed this. You're presupposing the universe was created when you call it creation. Sure, creation exists, but its from the organisms that live within the universe. The universe itself does not equal creation. It's perfectly possible for the universe to have always existed in some other form.

This just doesn't make any logical sense. If you found a Rolex on the ground why would you assume it was manufactured? Why wouldn't you just assume it was always there? I didn't see my house actually being built. Would it be intelligent for me to assume it's always been here? I don't remember being born. Maybe I've always been here too.

Trees grow. Rocks and mountains are formed. The universe is ever expanding What kind of science are you studying, breh?

Answer this for me. Do you use creator and God interchangeably? If so, why? .... How do you know the cause of our universe is necessarily a god?

Doesn't matter what you call it. When I say God I'm referring to the creator of the universe. Is that a problem for you? Question for you, if God didn't create the universe, do you have any logical hypothesis on how it could have gotten here?

Well some products, yes. Other products, as a result of human advances in technology, have lasted much longer. What difference does that make?

Point is our intelligent designs don't hold a flicker of a flame to the sun. And that's intelligent. So how can unintelligent non-design be that much better? That just makes no logical sense. You can argue that if you want but you'd be lying to yourself.

Numbers pulled directly from your ass. But yes, some times a natural event can result in something beautiful. That doesn't mean an earthquake will build a car, but depending on your perspective, not every "creation" is a result of a coscious mind.

20 divided by 3,000,000,000 is out of my ass? 20 years being the approximate life of a car and 3 billion, that's not my number but maybe someone did pull it out of there ass.

Not sure how an earthquake would build a car. That doesn't really make any sense or have anything to do with what I said.

I don't call it nothing. I call it the laws of nature ... it's physics, calculus, chemistry... everything working together, not towards a goal, but just happening. It's possible that the result of that could be life as we know it. Throw in things which do have goals like living, and procreating, then it's feasible to see how life has sustained itself for so long.

Call "it" what you want but either way, you just acknowledged it. "Laws of nature"? Written and enforced by whom or what? It? Then glory be to "it". I call "it" God.

The bigger question is why you insist on calling such a force "God", when that label carries so much baggage along with it? You already concede that the mythos associated with the label is at least understandable to disbelieve in. When you assume the creator is a god, you bring all that other stuff too.

Maybe the word "God" invokes some strong feelings of enmity in you for whatever reason, maybe you were touched by a priest or something, IDK. But again, when I say God I mean the creator of the universe. If we were speaking Spanish I guess I would say "Dios" or "Allah" in Arabic. You say "it" apparently.

Not really sure why you're so hung up on this word.

Already explained this earlier. I don't attribute it to nothing. Atheists/skeptics & the scientific minded generally don't.

Again, replace "it" with God and we're in agreement. But for some reason that word makes you cringe. Not my problem. Seek therapy.

No, it's not the same at all. First of all, you don't even understand the science you're discussing. Two, it's not exactly faith when it's a process that is the single most reliable method mankind has in discovering the TRUTH about the universe. The fact of the matter is, everything we know and will ever know is the direct result of the scientific method and NOT religion. I don't have to conduct the experiments myself, because I know it's not the word of just one or two men. It's built upon others trying to prove the hypotheses of their colleagues wrong through peer review. To put it frankly, science works, bytch.

I have a firm understanding of science. Are you one of those people who thinks if a person believes in God they can't believe in science? I call those people idiots.

What TRUTH about the universe have YOU, personally discovered through scientific experiment?

Funny you mention scientific method when it was introduced by a Muslim who was studying the universe as instructed in the Quran. So apparently EVERYTHING you know is all thanks to a Muslim who was simply trying to understand his creator.

Not only that, it is faith based because you are believing what a scientist told you. Did you ever measure the circumference of the Earth? No. I'm 100% sure you didn't and I don't even know you. However, you (and I) have faith in the calculations of a man who claims he has. Like Jr. Gong said "the average man can't prove most of the things he chooses to speak on". What you call "knowing" I call "believing" and until you conduct these experiments yourself you are just a follower with faith in the man who claims to know.

Religion on the other hand takes the position of "X happened, God is the cause, don't you dare question it or face a terrible consequence". How is that ANYTHING like a pathway towards truth? It's sad that you actually think you are in the best position to decide what is true or not because you're religious.

You're generalizing all religions and sounding foolish in the process. I already destroyed your world by informing you that your precious and sacred scientific method was the product of religion. As such, the above paragraph is utter garbage.

IDK what kind of religion you were introduced to but I promise you you're dead wrong if you think EVERY religious person thinks this way. Again, the scientific method was introduced by a religious person. Why? Because he said "X happened, blah blah blah" like you said? No. He studied the universe and when he made marvelous discoveries as to how it all comes together he gave praise to God or "it" as you call it.

You're not correct, just confused and/or misinformed. But as a God-fearing science lover statements like that really irk me. It shows you really have no clue what you're talking about. Duly noted.

Um, who is my leader? And sure, you could argue that... but that's not what I'm arguing, so don't put words in my mouth, or say that I agree 100% with someone else. I have my own mind, my own thoughts, and I can draw my own conclusions. Argue against what I'm saying. Don't strawman me to take a position of someone whom you think represents me.

Then conduct your own experiments.

I'm saying that you are a follower. No starwman (HL's favorite term). I'm calling YOU, @NoMayo15 , a follower. You are equipped with a bunch of "knowledge" based on experiments you, yourself, never conducted. That means you'r following someone. That makes you a follower.

No, it doesn't. Argument from Ignorance.

I asked a simple question. And I see you have offered no answer. Also duly noted.

SMH, what would you say is external evidence for god?

Can you see, hear, smell, touch and taste? If you have all 5 of your senses than there is literally an infinite amount of evidence.

 

[NoMayo15]

So we should agree with your premise that God doesn't exist?

I've made no such claim.

This just doesn't make any logical sense. If you found a Rolex on the ground why would you assume it was manufactured? Why wouldn't you just assume it was always there? I didn't see my house actually being built. Would it be intelligent for me to assume it's always been here? I don't remember being born. Maybe I've always been here too.

My god... the watchmaker argument? Reallyy? Listen, if I saw a Rolex on the ground, yes, I'd assume it's manufactured. Do you know why? Because the ONLY examples of Rolex's we have are from those that are made from other humans. We don't have examples of other universes being created by gods, therefore this analogy is 100% FAIL.

Same with any man-made creation. You may not remember being born, but there were people present at your birth, and they can confirm the event happen. Not to mention the medical records, your birth certificate, etc. This is the shyttiest argument of all time, please stop making it.

Trees grow. Rocks and mountains are formed. The universe is ever expanding What kind of science are you studying, breh?

.....Are you saying the majority of scientists agree that trees grow, and mountains come about because God makes them? And you're the one laughing?

Doesn't matter what you call it. When I say God I'm referring to the creator of the universe. Is that a problem for you? Question for you, if God didn't create the universe, do you have any logical hypothesis on how it could have gotten here?

Okay, so I'm going to assume the answer to my question is 'yes'. And yes, I would say it's a problem because, like I said before, when you call this creator a god, you imply other attributes and characteristics about it which we have no way of confirming. Also, you eliminate other possibilities. Why can't the creator of our universe also be a physical being within some other dimension? I'm not saying that's what I believe, but all the language you use shows me you are biased towards your preconceived notions about this entity. You'd rather Islam be correct, rather than taking a neutral stance, and trying to find the answer objectively.

As for your question, it's not my hypothesis in particular, but I think Big Bang cosmology is the best explanation for the origins of the universe. You might disagree whether that's a 'logical' position to take, but you'd be wrong, ha.

Point is our intelligent designs don't hold a flicker of a flame to the sun. And that's intelligent. So how can unintelligent non-design be that much better? That just makes no logical sense. You can argue that if you want but you'd be lying to yourself.

Why do you put rankings on natural occurrences? To me, a sunset is just as beautiful as the Sistine Chapel. Niagara Falls is just as great as the Pyramids. A brain is as complex as a super computer. There is no "better". Just different ... based on our own experiences and perspective.

20 divided by 3,000,000,000 is out of my ass? 20 years being the approximate life of a car and 3 billion, that's not my number but maybe someone did pull it out of there ass. Not sure how an earthquake would build a car. That doesn't really make any sense or have anything to do with what I said.

Wow, you missed my point completely. You stated that my position is essentially "why should humans design and make anything at all, when nature is so much better at creating things without design?". That couldn't be further from the truth. Refer back to my comment above. I reject the idea that something like.... say, a planet, is inherently "better" than a car. That idea came from your own head, not mine. Cars are things that don't come about naturally, and since people want to travel long distances in a short amount of time it makes sense for people to make them. The alternative is something like waiting around for an earthquake, hoping the result would be a car .... something that does not happen.

Call "it" what you want but either way, you just acknowledged it. "Laws of nature"? Written and enforced by whom or what? It? Then glory be to "it". I call "it" God.

lol, these laws aren't literally written, they just are. They are the result of the big bang event I mention earlier. Why do you think someone or something has to decree these laws?

Maybe the word "God" invokes some strong feelings of enmity in you for whatever reason, maybe you were touched by a priest or something, IDK. But again, when I say God I mean the creator of the universe. If we were speaking Spanish I guess I would say "Dios" or "Allah" in Arabic. You say "it" apparently.

Okay, that's fine, you can call it what you wish. I wouldn't use that word, because it has connotations other than "creator of the universe". You're not even a deist, so you agree this is true at some level.

Again, replace "it" with God and we're in agreement. But for some reason that word makes you cringe. Not my problem. Seek therapy.

Also, you believe "it" is non-physical, correct? We cannot be in agreement if we are talking about two different things.

I have a firm understanding of science. Are you one of those people who thinks if a person believes in God they can't believe in science? I call those people idiots.

Clearly, you don't. If you think science is teaching the universe came from nothing, you don't understand basic concepts from big bang cosmology.

Again, stop putting words in my mouth. I'm saying the overwhelming majority of people who study this stuff, do not conclude God is the answer for the question of the cause of the universe we are a part of today.

What TRUTH about the universe have YOU, personally discovered through scientific experiment?

Zero. How many truths have you discovered? What difference does it make? It's irrelevant, really.

The point is, I COULD if I so chose to take that path in life. Can you confirm some of the nonsense you believe in any holy text? Can you prove a single miracle occurred? If you would, you'd be the first, and let me know when you win your Nobel prize for proving divine intervention.

Funny you mention scientific method when it was introduced by a Muslim who was studying the universe as instructed in the Quran. So apparently EVERYTHING you know is all thanks to a Muslim who was simply trying to understand his creator.

Sweet, and I'm glad that happened. Makes it so much easier to disregard the rubbish that's in the Quran, and appreciate the truth within it.

See, I have no hostility towards religious people. It's when they make statements or do things that I find to be detrimental to the betterment of society that I'll say something. You making these outlandish comments about what atheists believe is the only reason we're having this back and forth ... not because you used the word God.

 

[NoMayo15]

Not only that, it is faith based because you are believing what a scientist told you. Did you ever measure the circumference of the Earth? No. I'm 100% sure you didn't and I don't even know you. However, you (and I) have faith in the calculations of a man who claims he has. Like Jr. Gong said "the average man can't prove most of the things he chooses to speak on". What you call "knowing" I call "believing" and until you conduct these experiments yourself you are just a follower with faith in the man who claims to know.

It's not faith in the same way religious people use faith. What you call my faith, is a reasonable expectation of an accurate portrayal of reality based on previous experience. We have first hand evidence all around us of the success of science & peer review. Religion, on the other hand has no objective way of determining if a claim is true or likely to be true. It's simply taking someones/some book's word because it says its true. That's COMPLETELY different, but if you can't see that, then no wonder you have such warped views about reality.

You're generalizing all religions and sounding foolish in the process. I already destroyed your world by informing you that your precious and sacred scientific method was the product of religion. As such, the above paragraph is utter garbage.

IDK what kind of religion you were introduced to but I promise you you're dead wrong if you think EVERY religious person thinks this way. Again, the scientific method was introduced by a religious person. Why? Because he said "X happened, blah blah blah" like you said? No. He studied the universe and when he made marvelous discoveries as to how it all comes together he gave praise to God or "it" as you call it.

I never said every religious person thinks this way, and I am thankful for those that investigated despite their religion teaches. I'm not going back on my statement. The fact is that the major religions claims to already know the origins of the universe. I'm thankful to that Muslim, because that process has made it easier today for people to accept the idea of a universe without a supernatural creator.


You're not correct, just confused and/or misinformed. But as a God-fearing science lover statements like that really irk me. It shows you really have no clue what you're talking about. Duly noted.

That makes you a follower.

Dumb. What's even the point of this? To call me a name? Okay, fine, I'm a follower, and so are you. And so has everyone who has ever built upon the knowledge of those before them. Einstein's a follower, Plato's a follower.... if you were ever taught anything by anyone, and you believed it to be true without conducting an experiment, you are a follower.

Wow.... just.... useless name-calling. Who gives a shyt, bro?

I asked a simple question. And I see you have offered no answer. Also duly noted.

No, you didn't. You tried to make my position seem ridiculous, when you don't even KNOW my position. I haven't even said what my thoughts are until this post.

Can you see, hear, smell, touch and taste? If you have all 5 of your senses than there is literally an infinite amount of evidence.

Let me re-respond to this statement. I'm assuming you mean the universe is a god-created universe, and therefore simply looking around is evidence for this god. How do you possibly expect someone, who doesn't believe in a god, to accept the idea that merely looking at the trees/clouds/planets is sufficient to say to any degree of certainty that an all-powerful, supernatural being is the cause of these things? Do you seriously think that would convince someone?

But let me ask this way. Okay, you think the universe in it's current state was created by god. What do you think a universe without an intelligent designer would look like? What do you expect we'd see?

 

[Jesus Shuttlesworth]

In all honesty, this thread is getting too long for me. I'm gonna try to read through it but I really don't have time to respond.

 

[tru_m.a.c]

its nearly impossible to explain why you believe in God to a non-believer and visa versa

nah I'd actually argue we honestly understand why you believe in God, and that it's religious folks that don't understand why we don't believe in their personal God

what we don't get is why you reject the physical evidence that is put in front of you

 

[cheek100]

nah I'd actually argue we honestly understand why you believe in God, and that it's religious folks that don't understand why we don't believe in their personal God

what we don't get is why you reject the physical evidence that is put in front of you

the same physical evidence is what we claim is proof of His existence
what evidence do u have friend?

 

[tru_m.a.c]

the same physical evidence is what we claim is proof of His existence
what evidence do u have friend?

No that's not evidence. Those are claims passed off as evidence. I.e you wouldn't consider any other religions physical "evidence" as proof.

I mean things like evolutionary biology (and not only concerning humans), astro physics, archeology, geology etc

If even one thing is wrong in a holy book, I don't understand how it can be considered credible