dora_da_destroyer

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I really dislike Biden. I think he would be a terrible nominee, and even if he get elected I think he would be a bad president. However, I must admit that if things don’t change in the next two months Biden is most likely going to win the nomination. I just hope he doesn’t Hillary it up in the general.
interesting. while i'm not interested in him for the primaries, i also don't see him being a bad president...i see him truly as a stop gap, undo a few trump policies, but not really move the needle to more progressive policies, and honestly, i'm fine with that as i really feel that we need a progressive president that will be viable for two terms, and i'm not sure bernie nor liz offer that at their age presently.

biden doesn't have my primary vote, but i'd prefer him to pete any day
 

A.R.$

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interesting. while i'm not interested in him for the primaries, i also don't see him being a bad president...i see him truly as a stop gap, undo a few trump policies, but not really move the needle to more progressive policies, and honestly, i'm fine with that as i really feel that we need a progressive president that will be viable for two terms, and i'm not sure bernie nor liz offer that at their age presently.

biden doesn't have my primary vote, but i'd prefer him to pete any day
Mayor Pete is my least favorite candidate. It is a joke that he is actually being taken serious. Here is why I think he would be a bad president, even if he is just a stop gap. Biden love to work with republicans. The current Republican Party is to far gone to work with, or try to negotiate with. That will lead to policies getting stalled and watered down. We are assuming the Dems would win in 2024 without a major policy achievement. Not to mention what the economy will look like in 2024 without a huge change of philosophy/priorities. Not sure if we have four years to spare. We could easily get a smarter version of Trump in the next election if Dems don’t make major moves.
 

Dusty Bake Activate

Fukk your corny debates
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I'm becoming convinced that there was nothing Warren could have possibly done to avoid being in this position. It's larger than her. Bernie's most ardent, loud supporters were never going to leave him regardless of what she did. They dinged her when she said she was with Bernie on M4A, they're dinging her now that she has a different transition plan. I think Stoller is right when he says this is about trust. These people just fundamentally only trust Bernie. Their political knowledge doesn't really extend past 2016, so to them, Warren is some random Johnny Come Lately whose origin story is not endorsing Bernie in the 2016 primary. They don't see the work she put in for the years before the 2016 election, so they don't trust her. Dayen is right that Warren's attempts to court these voters has been misguided. She has been trying to be the unifying figure guiding the center to the left, but that just ended in both sides attacking her. All of the candidates are being swept along by the waves of history, where they ultimately land will be neither earned or unearned.
Exactly. Like I've been saying in this thread for months. :russell: However, it's not just Bernie folks that don't trust her. A lot of people in the general public don't and won't trust her and with some justified reason for her consistent record of being wishy washy in both her personal and political life.

She showed you who she truly was when she endorsed Hillary over Bernie in 2016. Her stated views were much more inline with Bernie, but she endorsed Hillary out of political calculation. I've been telling y'all...she's highly intelligent and capable, but she's a horrible national-level politician.

She refused to say middle class taxes would go up for M4A and let Booty judge and the ugly bytch from Montana or wherever bully her into putting out that detailed M4A plan that satisfied no one on the left or center, left everyone with a dubious impression of its workability and wasn't necessary at all. Just made her look weak and reactionary.

Then after the lukewarm reception of her M4A plan and Booty judge starts vulturing her votes in IA, she decides to basically take his "Medicare for all who want it" bullshyt plan.

So first she rides Bernie's progressive wave, but with a more elitist coastal liberal tinge to it. That puts her in a position to lose primary support to Booty Judge who always appeals to affluent boomer liberals. So then she reacts by moving to the center on healthcare and just looks like a mixed-up melanin-less Kamala Harris.

Face it, she ain't the one. Her campaign is probably done now. She needs to be Bernie's chief economic advisor or Treasury Secretary.
 
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dora_da_destroyer

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Mayor Pete is my least favorite candidate. It is a joke that he is actually being taken serious. Here is why I think he would be a bad president, even if he is just a stop gap. Biden love to work with republicans. The current Republican Party is to far gone to work with, or try to negotiate with. That will lead to policies getting stalled and watered down. We are assuming the Dems would win in 2024 without a major policy achievement. Not to mention what the economy will look like in 2024 without a huge change of philosophy/priorities. Not sure if we have four years to spare. We could easily get a smarter version of Trump in the next election if Dems don’t make major moves.
Maybe I’m being naive, but I’m hoping his cabinet and VP pick have more of a clue on dealing with the current parties and won’t let him venture off into 80s/90s “reach across the aisle” dem land. I think even he understands how far gone most of the repub party is, plus if he does that, he won’t get shyt done. There will be a big chunk of Dems who won’t works with him and of course rethugs who leave him high and dry.

That said, a lot of people would be happy with just trump policies being repealed. That’s the whole “return to normalcy” appeal of Biden. He doesn’t have to bring anything new to the table
 

A.R.$

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Maybe I’m being naive, but I’m hoping his cabinet and VP pick have more of a clue on dealing with the current parties and won’t let him venture off into 80s/90s “reach across the aisle” dem land. I think even he understands how far gone most of the repub party is, plus if he does that, he won’t get shyt done. There will be a big chunk of Dems who won’t works with him and of course rethugs who leave him high and dry.

That said, a lot of people would be happy with just trump policies being repealed. That’s the whole “return to normalcy” appeal of Biden. He doesn’t have to bring anything new to the table[/QUOTE]
That is where we disagree. There was a reason Trump was able to get elected in the first place. Most of it was pure racism/backlash that Obama was Black, mixed with real economic concerns. I don’t think it is good enough just to get back to normal. Especially since Trump has made most issues even worse than they were before he took office. The people that want to get back to normal probably voted for Hillary in 2016. You need to be able to motivate people to come out to vote.

Also Biden recently stated that he think republicans will work with him after Trump is gone.
 

Berniewood Hogan

IT'S BERNIE SANDERS WITH A STEEL CHAIR!
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Biden status: still touching girls

90982e9f9eaf0516bbc2a478f69c4a283ff4f6d4e42b4ff7a4c93c1f4ee56296.gif
 

dtownreppin214

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The Hill
JUST IN: Former New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg plans to drop $100 million on anti-Trump ads in four key swing states that Democrats are eager to flip— Arizona, Michigan, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin — during the 2020 election.


About this website

THEHILL.COM

Bloomberg to spend $100M on anti-Trump ads in battleground states
"Mike isn’t waiting to take on the President, he's starting now. This is all hands on deck," his spokesman said.

:mjlit:
:salute: Need more of this.
 

dora_da_destroyer

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Most the people with economic concerns were people who felt enough wasn’t coming to “them” (ie white men should get theirs) and those in dead industries where nothing was going to revive it, regardless of trump’s isolationist/populist message. He hasn’t delivered to to them...thus those who took a swing on him not out of racism might want more radical change, but if even a bit of trump repeal positively affects them, then they’re happy. As for get out and vote, this discussion was based on Biden being president, not his path there in the general, which yes, you have to get people out to vote.

I agree if he does an abysmal job, then 2024 is a problem, but like I said, I feel like the bar is so low for him as a potential president, it would be hard for him to be bad at it.
 

storyteller

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A menu is not a meal. Bernie has put out a list of different potential options to fund M4A but he hasn't put out a funding plan. He hasn't committed. He himself admitted this after Liz put out her plan and he said he doesn't feel like he has to release a financing plan.



Yes, a detailed financing plan is completely superfluous at this stage. Was the wealth tax suggestion enough for you to say "this student loan forgiveness plan can work" or did you need a detailed breakdown? She had to do this because she needed to justify why she was refusing to acknowledge a middle class tax increase. Since Bernie hasn't handcuffed himself to convincing Americans that their won't be any tax increase, he has a multitude of options and according to YouGov polling, the difference in feelings about the funding mechanism doesn't even break the margin for error.

Warren’s Head Tax Is Not More Popular Than A Payroll Tax

So to be clear, this was an unnecessary step except that she needed cover next time debates roll around. It's good political strategy, not great or necessary policy strategy at this stage (and I'll repeat for a clear good faith approach on the issue check out Bruenig's work).


The gap Liz is filling here is a reality gap. Bernie damn well knows his M4A bill isn't being passed in the first week of his Presidency. At best, it's a symbolic gesture.

We both know the difference between introducing a bill and getting a bill passed week one. You're too smart to misrepresent Bernie's promise like that. Was it a shot at Warren? Yes, her single payer bill won't be introduced until three years into her term on her proposed timeline. Did he promise M4A passage in week one? Of course not. Week one is when the fight to get it passed starts is what he's saying, not in year three right after a bunch of legislators just won elections and don't have to sweat out pressure from constituents to pass the president's key legislative goal.

Meanwhile, thousands will die unnecessarily, and millions will have no healthcare. Liz's point is that she isn't waiting for the "revolution" to expand healthcare as much as possible to millions on the road to M4A.

There's a baked in assumption here that I don't particularly agree with. Whether you go with M4A or a Public Option, the Republicans and donor push back will likely be just as bad. That means you'll need a heavy amount of pressure to pass even a Public Option. Setting that up as the first benchmark just takes it off the table as the compromise position for the Manchins, Sinemas and Blue Dogs in the race. Even getting a simple majority via Budget Reconciliation is not going to be a walk in the park unless we get a really good election result. And at the point where a first hundred days Public Option is feasible, I think the path for M4A is likely a lot clearer as well.


Now, we can discuss the feasibility of passing Liz's transition plan, which can be done through reconciliation, vs passing Bernie's M4A bill, which will require a fillibuster-proof majority to vote for it, in the first 2 years of his presidency. To me, only one of those options is operating in an environment of reality.

If we're saying the government will inevitably botch healthcare expansion to the point that a public option will be disastrous and give Republicans talking points, what the hell are we fighting for M4A for?

Hang on here too. Liz's transition plan gets us to a Public Option. The M4A next step would have the face the same legislative challenges that Bernie's would. Now if you're assuming that the Public Option will be so successful that passing M4A next will be easy...Congratulations, you've endorsed Pete Buttigeig's Medicare for all who want it stance. That's not a bad thing, but let's call it what it is and personally, I don't think it works out that way.

You've now drawn a line in the sand for the Republicans at that Public Option. You've just spent however much time fighting to get it passed and you had to use legislative trickery to get it through (this is the optics, not how I view it personally). Now you are pressing an even bigger policy movement and the plan is to do it within a couple of years of that last major fight over legislation.

The reality is that even if you view a Public Option as the only feasible option to pass, you'd actually give yourself better leverage to get that passed quickly by starting the fight at M4A. It's a simple negotiation tactic and you'd also begin to introduce arguments in the affirmative for M4A out the gate instead of waiting while you pass a Public Option before going, "by the way, we know we just passed this one...but here's an even better one." You even acknowledged this in the past and in this thread responding to Harry Reid's belief that Warren would eventually pivot to a Public Option...

Both Liz and Bernie are playing the game right. Support M4A as your starting position so you can extract the best deal possible when it comes time to actually legislate. Reid is talking too much here, peeping game and undercutting Liz's bargaining position :stopitslime:, but he's ultimately right. Bernie would do the same. It'd be criminally negligent if the President didn't. The only people who seem to think M4A is going to be a reality in the immediate future are Bernie dead-enders who ascribe to him some magical ability to turn Republicans and corporate Democrats into socialists. Thankfully Bernie is smarter than that and has shown himself to be an effective pragmatist when it comes to actually wielding power.

I 100% agree with this post. If Bernie's hands are tied, he will push through whatever the best legislation is that he can get passed. The criticism of Warren here is that she's using poor strategy by showing her hand. And even by your old standards, that isn't a necessary evil.
 
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