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10 Facts That Clear Up Confusion Around What Exactly Is an Arab
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GetInTheTruck
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It is illogical because there are dark skinned people today, including Arabs, who nobody would consider to be "black," so the point is moot.
You're right in that the word Afrocentric shouldn't be used, because ironically most so-called "Afrocentrics" pre-occupy themselves with peoples and cultures outside of Africa.
GetInTheTruck
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Ibn Khaldun was cited earlier, here is what the same Ibn Khaldun had to say about west Africans in "Muqadimma":
"The inhabitants of the zones that are far from temperate, such as the 1st, 2nd, 6th and 7th, are also farther removed from being temperate in all their conditions. Their buildings are of clay and reeds, their foodstuffs are sorghum and herbs. Their clothing is the leaves of trees which they sew together to cover themselves, or animal skins. Most of them go naked. The fruits and seasonings of their countries are strange and inclined to be intemperate. In their business dealings they do not use the two noble metals [silver and gold], but copper, iron, or skins, upon which they set a value for the purpose of business dealings. Their qualities of character, moreover, are close to those of dumb animals. It has even been reported that the Negroes of the first zone dwell in caves and thickets, eat herbs, live in savage isolation, a do not congregate, and eat each other. The same applies to the Slavs[i.e. northern Europeans in general] . The reason for this is that their remoteness from being temperate produces in them a disposition and character similar to those of dumb animals, and they become correspondingly remote from humanity."
"The inhabitants of the zones that are far from temperate, such as the 1st, 2nd, 6th and 7th, are also farther removed from being temperate in all their conditions. Their buildings are of clay and reeds, their foodstuffs are sorghum and herbs. Their clothing is the leaves of trees which they sew together to cover themselves, or animal skins. Most of them go naked. The fruits and seasonings of their countries are strange and inclined to be intemperate. In their business dealings they do not use the two noble metals [silver and gold], but copper, iron, or skins, upon which they set a value for the purpose of business dealings. Their qualities of character, moreover, are close to those of dumb animals. It has even been reported that the Negroes of the first zone dwell in caves and thickets, eat herbs, live in savage isolation, a do not congregate, and eat each other. The same applies to the Slavs[i.e. northern Europeans in general] . The reason for this is that their remoteness from being temperate produces in them a disposition and character similar to those of dumb animals, and they become correspondingly remote from humanity."
Here you go again chasing this Afrocentric boogeyman. How can you pick apart "Afrocentric" arguments if you have not 1. Properly identified who these Afrocentrics are? And 2. Properly identified the claims made by these supposed "Afrocentrics" in regards to this topic? That not only reeks of intellectual dishonesty, but it also reeks of intellectual laziness on your part
. Convenience isn't a solid platform to stand on. If that were the case, we'd still be seeing Academia peddle the Hamitic hypothesis, Egypt being a non-African civilization, and Africans being given civilization by wandering caucasoids
You simply don't have an argument when it's built on a false and shaky foundation. Don't be so obtuse. No one sees the Atlantablackstar as a primary source for this topic. It was merely the spark that led to this conversation and the article put forth points and sources for people to consider and discuss. I even ordered one of the books mentioned in the OP
. Did you read the article? Or did you just emotionally react like some of the cats in this thread have based off of the thread title? They provided sources and books in the OP for people to look up and you want to ignore that and chase the mythical Afrocentric ghost on youtube? C'mon fam. You're better than this. You want to have a discussion on this subject, but you can't even read a simple article?So it's okay for you and others to make strawmen up and down in this thread, but you want to hide behind "Burden of proof"? This reeks of nothing but cowardice because it does nothing but give you a way out in not backing up the shyt you say. But since no one else has provided much of anything in regards to this topic, I guess I'll have to. See below for my sources and evidence.
I'll provide my sources below.
Thank you. I don't see how this disproves that the OG Arabs were black, Tropically adapted, or dark skinned ( Or any other term you want to use). What I do see here are descriptions of Blacks and African slaves during the Islamic expansion where Arab identity and culture began to be absorbed by different peoples who weren't historically considered Arabs and such is the case with groups like the Turks, Syrians, and Iraqi's. These aforementioned groups mixed with Arabs to create the lighter skin Arabs we see today.
Those who speak Arabic or practice Arab culture are comprised in three divisions:
- al-'Arab ul-'Aribah--South Arabian "Kushytes" of the oldest purest civilization and blood lines)
- al-'Arab ul-Muta'aribah--Northerners who entered Arabia mixed in upon the southerners adopting language and culture.
- al-'Arab ul-Musta'ribah--Foreigners outside of Arabia with no Arab ancestry who after Arab conquests were assimilated and adopted Arab culture.
Looks like you on that
If were talking about the ORIGINAL people here, then of course were going to have give accounts of the past and not just one time period where the identity the original people held was changing due the expansion of the Islam and conquered peoples adopting the culture and identity.
Here are some descriptions we have from Western explorers:
“The inhabitants of this part of Arabia nearly all belong to the race of Himyar. Their complexion is almost as black as the Abyssinians,”-- Baron von Maltzan, 'Geography of Southern Arabia' (1872)
“ [the Hamida are] small chocolate colored beings, stunted and thin… with mops of bushy hair… straggling beards , vicious eyes, frowning brows … armed with scabbards slung over the shoulder and Janbiyyah daggers…” a people “of the great Hejazi tribe that has kept his blood pure for the last 13 centuries…”-- Sir Richard Burton (1879)
“The people of Dhufar are of the Qahtan tribe, the sons of Joktan mentioned in Genesis: they are of Hamitic or African rather than Arab types…”--Arnold Wilson, The Geographical Journal (1927)
“the most prosperous tribe of all the Hamitic group, possessing innumerable camels, herds of cattle and the richest frankincense country. They resemble the Bisharin tribe of the Nubian desert. Men of big bone , they have long faces long narrow jaws, noses of a refined shape long curly hair and brown skin.”--Richmond Palmer (1929)
“Mahra is the Arab name for the Bedouin tribes who are different in appearance to other Arabs, having almost beardless faces, fuzzy hair and dark pigmentation – such as the Qarra, Mahra and Harasis… Also on “…the Qarra, Mahra and Harasis with parts of other tribes. The language is derived from the language of the Sabaeans, Minaeans and Himyarites. The Mahra with other Southern Arabian peoples seem aligned to the Hamitic race of north-east Africa… The Mahra are believed to be descended from the Habasha, who colonized Ethiopia in the first millennium BC”-- David Phillips, Peoples on the Move (2001)
“European observers have made much of their physical resemblance to Somalis and Ethiopians, but there is no historical evidence of any connections.”-- E. Peterson, 'Oman’s Diverse Society: Southern Oman'
Scholars also note
“Mr. Baldwin draws a marked distinction between the modern Mahomedan Semitic population of Arabia and their great Cushyte, Hamite, or Ethiopian predecessors. The former, he says, ‘are comparatively modern in Arabia,’ they have ‘appropriated the reputation of the old race,’ and have unduly occupied the chief attention of modern scholars.”-- Charles Hardwick (1872)
Among ‘these Negroid features which may be counted normal in Arabs are the full,rather everted lips, shortness and width of nose, certain blanks in the bearded areas of the face between the lower lip and chin and on the cheeks; large, luscious,gazelle-like eyes, a dark brown complexion, and a tendency for the hair to grow in ringlets. Often the features of the more Negroid Arabs are derivatives of Dravidian India rather than inheritances of Hamitic Africa. Although the Arab of today is sharply differentiated from the Negro of Africa, yet there must have been a time when both were represented by a single ancestral stock; in no other way can the prevalence of certain Negroid features be accounted for in the natives of Arabia.”-- Henry Field, Anthropology Memoirs Volume 4 (1902)
“The Cushytes. the first inhabitants of Arabia, arc known in the national traditions by the name of Adites, from their progenitor, who is called Ad, the grandson of Ham.”-- F. Lenormant (1922)
“There is a considerable mass of evidence to show that there was a very close resemblance between the proto-Egyptians and the Arabs before either became intermingled with Armenoid racial elements.”-- Elliot Smith, he Ancient Egyptians and the Origins of Civilization (1923)
“In Arabia the first inhabitants were probably a dark-skinned, shortish population intermediate, between the African Hamites and the Dravidians of India and forming a single African Asiatic belt with these.”-- Handbook of the Territories which form the Theater of Operations of the Iraq Petroleum Company Limited and its Associated Companies
Now how about we explore the way Arabs saw themselves:
…the predominant complexion of the Arabs is dark brownish black and that of the non-Arabs is white.” Ibn Mandour (14th Century) Lisaan al-Arab IV:209.
The south Arabs represent a residue of hamitic populations which at one time occupied the whole of Arabia. “ John D. Baldwin from Pre-historic nations or inquiries Concerning Some of the Great peoples and Civilizations of Antiquity. Harpers 1869
The Zanj say that God did not make them black in order to disfigure them; rather it is their environment that made them so. The best evidence of this is that there are black tribes among the Arabs, such as the Banu Sulaim bin Mansur, and that all the peoples settled in the Harra, besides the Banu Sulaim are black.” Abu Uthman Al-Jahiz of Iraq 9th century A.D.
David Goldenberg writes, “This view of the Arab as dark-skinned is also found among other peoples, as is indicated by the term arap (i.e., Arab) meaning 'black African' in modern Turkish, Greek, and Russian, as well as in Yiddish” (Goldenberg, 2005, p. 124). And, this is the case because their peoples still have folk history of the original Arab invaders of their lands. The descriptions and depictions of the earliest Arabs or kara-Arapy (“black Arabs”) are not infrequent in their histories and folktales.
There is, for example, the texts of the Kurdish writer Ibn Athir (12th – 13th century) which speak of the Sulaym/Sulaim folk hero "Sa’d al-Aswad" as being literally black because he came from the “purest” Arabs. A Persian Jewish Targum to Song 1: 5 uses the phrase “black as the Kushytes who live in the tents of Kedar.” to describe peoples of north Arabia. (Goldenberg, p. 244)
Ibn Khaldun (d. 1405) in his Muqqadima, has an important discussion of the seven zones and their inhabitants. According to Ibn Khaldun’s formulation, there are three ‘middle’ or moderate zones: 3, 4, and 5. The inhabitants are distinguished by temperate bodies, complexions, character qualities and general conditions. Included in these temperate zones are the Maghrib, Syria, the two Iraqs, Western India, China, and Spain. Iraq and Syria are in the very center, we are told, and are thus the most temperate. Zones 6 and 7 includes the European Christian nations, Eastern Europe, Russia and the lands of the Turks. These are the white lands and Zone 7 is excessively cold, producing excessively white peoples with blue eyes, freckled skin, and blond hair. (Muhamad, 2012, )
…the predominant complexion of the Arabs is dark brownish black and that of the non-Arabs is white.” Ibn Mandour (14th Century) Lisaan al-Arab IV:209.
The south Arabs represent a residue of hamitic populations which at one time occupied the whole of Arabia. “ John D. Baldwin from Pre-historic nations or inquiries Concerning Some of the Great peoples and Civilizations of Antiquity. Harpers 1869
The Zanj say that God did not make them black in order to disfigure them; rather it is their environment that made them so. The best evidence of this is that there are black tribes among the Arabs, such as the Banu Sulaim bin Mansur, and that all the peoples settled in the Harra, besides the Banu Sulaim are black.” Abu Uthman Al-Jahiz of Iraq 9th century A.D.
David Goldenberg writes, “This view of the Arab as dark-skinned is also found among other peoples, as is indicated by the term arap (i.e., Arab) meaning 'black African' in modern Turkish, Greek, and Russian, as well as in Yiddish” (Goldenberg, 2005, p. 124). And, this is the case because their peoples still have folk history of the original Arab invaders of their lands. The descriptions and depictions of the earliest Arabs or kara-Arapy (“black Arabs”) are not infrequent in their histories and folktales.
There is, for example, the texts of the Kurdish writer Ibn Athir (12th – 13th century) which speak of the Sulaym/Sulaim folk hero "Sa’d al-Aswad" as being literally black because he came from the “purest” Arabs. A Persian Jewish Targum to Song 1: 5 uses the phrase “black as the Kushytes who live in the tents of Kedar.” to describe peoples of north Arabia. (Goldenberg, p. 244)
Ibn Khaldun (d. 1405) in his Muqqadima, has an important discussion of the seven zones and their inhabitants. According to Ibn Khaldun’s formulation, there are three ‘middle’ or moderate zones: 3, 4, and 5. The inhabitants are distinguished by temperate bodies, complexions, character qualities and general conditions. Included in these temperate zones are the Maghrib, Syria, the two Iraqs, Western India, China, and Spain. Iraq and Syria are in the very center, we are told, and are thus the most temperate. Zones 6 and 7 includes the European Christian nations, Eastern Europe, Russia and the lands of the Turks. These are the white lands and Zone 7 is excessively cold, producing excessively white peoples with blue eyes, freckled skin, and blond hair. (Muhamad, 2012, )
here is how europeans in the 1600s viewed Saladin (one of the greatest warriors in Islamic history): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guy_of...ns-_King_Guy_of_Lusignan_and_King_Saladin.tif
FYI...Saladin is the black guy in green while the white man in red is a European.
the early muslims/arabs were black.
He wasn't Black in the movie "Kingdom of Heaven".
Why are people quoting AD text when this discussion should be centered on Arabia 10,000 BC-600 AD????
The Levant and Arabian peninsula are not "outside of Africa" to any significant extent.
The Levant and Arabian peninsula are not "outside of Africa" to any significant extent.
Aye... @Supper and @GetInTheTruck you guys posts. Yeah I agree evidence needs to be supported, instead of just saying, "the original Arabs were black". Me personally I could careless what the original Arabs were. Because I don't really care about Arab culture or history. But... I am not going to lie like I haven't seen sources that mentioned the early Arabs as being extremely dark or "black". Anyways thhis posts will be detailing WHY arguing the early people of the Arabian peninsula should not be in the same realm as "black Chinese", "black Vikings", "black Greeks" or "black Olmecs". Why should it be it? I mean not only is the Arabian Peninsula right next door to Africa. But it be argued that parts of the Arabian peninsula(and even the Levant) are an extension of Africa due sharing the same tectonic plates. Further more during the neolithic and even early, there were back and forth migrations. Noted by S.O.Y Keita...
The issue of how much Paleolithic migration from the Near East there may have been is intriguing, and the mitochondrial DNA variation may need to be reassessed as to what can be considered to be only of "Eurasian origin" because if hunters and gatherers roamed between the Saharan and supra-Saharan regions and Eurasia it might be difficult to determine exactly "where" a mutation arose.-- Keita, In Hot Pursuit of Language in Prehistory ed. John Benjamins. (2008)
Not only that we also have the Natufarians in the Arabian Peninsula and Near East during Neolithic. While some were not tropically adapted or "black", most anthropologist agree that they predominantly came from AFRICA! Shouldn't be far-fetched as the Afro-Asiatic branch in the Arabian Peninsula ancestry is from Africa. I mean how did it did Afro-Asiatic get the Arabian Peninsula in the first place? Some people hint to the Natufarians.
Also like most of Africa, almost all of southern Arabia is in the tropical zone:
Now IF the early Arabs were "black", would they be genetically related to Africans? That I am not sure of. They could have just been indigenous black Asians. But anyways...
@GetInTheTruck I read your source on Ibn Khaldun doesn't really add much, because its commonly known that Khaldun was a racist, but his sources were always second hand and he wasn't even from the Peninsula but Al-Andalus(Iberia). Just wanted to get that out of the way.
Anyways replying to this...
It is illogical because there are dark skinned people today, including Arabs, who nobody would consider to be "black," so the point is moot.
When I mean "dark skin" and "black", I mean this...
Second, "black" is not moot in a historical sense because "black" unusually meant "burnt skin". You forget that Arab is just a Pan-Ethnicity and these Arabs from Northern Sudan are what we call, "black".
And in one of your earlier posts, I seen you used Indians being described as black as a proving point on why the term is moot. Its not because Indians were once grouped in as "blacks" or "Ethiopians" and they were considered to be the "Eastern Ethiopians" by the Greeks and Romans. It was because of their, "burnt skin". But they were mainly referencing the darker toned Indians like the Dravidians. Though they were still considered slightly different. That still does not deflate the historical concept of black or the argument of people of the Arabian peninsula having what we call "burnt skin" similar to Africans next door...
Anyways back to the Arabs. Again like I said "Arab" is a pan-ethnicity. Matter fact its hard to argue who the original Arabs were. To be honest a better argument would be who were the original people of the Arabian Peninsula. One must be cautious of the "Arab" identity as it can be confusing. As ANYONE can be Arab. And yes that includes BLACKS such as those from Northern Sudan. To me the Arab concept is like "Hispanic" as anyone who speaks the language as a native language and practice some form of the culture. This is why you have Northern Sudanese claiming to be Arab.
In a stricter sense it would really be anyone whose ethnicity derives from the major tribes of Arabia. But not all Arabians are "Arabs" since there are minority groups who are considered outcasts because their genealogy/pedigree is not derived from certain divisions.
But again note that there are indigenous black Arabians thus there were blacks among the Arabs and in some myths these were considered to be the original 'Arabs' while others say the Arab ethnicity lay else where. Again this whole Arabs being black thing did NOT repeat did NOT start with the "Afrocentric" camp. But to get back to the point, this is why arguing whether the early Arabs were black or not is confusing. There could have always been black indigenous Arabians living in southern part of the Peninsula, but the concept of "Arab" could have originated somewhere else or more north; by people who are not "black".
Though whatever the case may be it is interesting that the legends about Muhammad describe how Muhammad's apostle Khalid bin Al-Walid slayed the three great goddesses of the Arabs described as black women!
But like I said there are still indigenous black Arabians, especially parts of the Peninsula as @Poitier even noted. Such as the Tihama people.
Then you have the Mahra people.
Again there have always been native black Arabians...
But to get to the point. Here are early texts on the Arabs.
Al Jahiz who was an Arab himself IIRC...
Again this is the early periods and there is much more.
Anyways you guys can take this post anyway, I'm just stating my 2cents. Dont really care who the original Arabs were, just stating that the argument is NOT illogical and there is evidence to back it up.
A more interesting argument imo is who the original people of the Arabian Peninsula were...
The issue of how much Paleolithic migration from the Near East there may have been is intriguing, and the mitochondrial DNA variation may need to be reassessed as to what can be considered to be only of "Eurasian origin" because if hunters and gatherers roamed between the Saharan and supra-Saharan regions and Eurasia it might be difficult to determine exactly "where" a mutation arose.-- Keita, In Hot Pursuit of Language in Prehistory ed. John Benjamins. (2008)
Not only that we also have the Natufarians in the Arabian Peninsula and Near East during Neolithic. While some were not tropically adapted or "black", most anthropologist agree that they predominantly came from AFRICA! Shouldn't be far-fetched as the Afro-Asiatic branch in the Arabian Peninsula ancestry is from Africa. I mean how did it did Afro-Asiatic get the Arabian Peninsula in the first place? Some people hint to the Natufarians.
Also like most of Africa, almost all of southern Arabia is in the tropical zone:
Now IF the early Arabs were "black", would they be genetically related to Africans? That I am not sure of. They could have just been indigenous black Asians. But anyways...
@GetInTheTruck I read your source on Ibn Khaldun doesn't really add much, because its commonly known that Khaldun was a racist, but his sources were always second hand and he wasn't even from the Peninsula but Al-Andalus(Iberia). Just wanted to get that out of the way.
Anyways replying to this...
It is illogical because there are dark skinned people today, including Arabs, who nobody would consider to be "black," so the point is moot.
When I mean "dark skin" and "black", I mean this...
Source:
Second, "black" is not moot in a historical sense because "black" unusually meant "burnt skin". You forget that Arab is just a Pan-Ethnicity and these Arabs from Northern Sudan are what we call, "black".
And in one of your earlier posts, I seen you used Indians being described as black as a proving point on why the term is moot. Its not because Indians were once grouped in as "blacks" or "Ethiopians" and they were considered to be the "Eastern Ethiopians" by the Greeks and Romans. It was because of their, "burnt skin". But they were mainly referencing the darker toned Indians like the Dravidians. Though they were still considered slightly different. That still does not deflate the historical concept of black or the argument of people of the Arabian peninsula having what we call "burnt skin" similar to Africans next door...
Anyways back to the Arabs. Again like I said "Arab" is a pan-ethnicity. Matter fact its hard to argue who the original Arabs were. To be honest a better argument would be who were the original people of the Arabian Peninsula. One must be cautious of the "Arab" identity as it can be confusing. As ANYONE can be Arab. And yes that includes BLACKS such as those from Northern Sudan. To me the Arab concept is like "Hispanic" as anyone who speaks the language as a native language and practice some form of the culture. This is why you have Northern Sudanese claiming to be Arab.
In a stricter sense it would really be anyone whose ethnicity derives from the major tribes of Arabia. But not all Arabians are "Arabs" since there are minority groups who are considered outcasts because their genealogy/pedigree is not derived from certain divisions.
But again note that there are indigenous black Arabians thus there were blacks among the Arabs and in some myths these were considered to be the original 'Arabs' while others say the Arab ethnicity lay else where. Again this whole Arabs being black thing did NOT repeat did NOT start with the "Afrocentric" camp. But to get back to the point, this is why arguing whether the early Arabs were black or not is confusing. There could have always been black indigenous Arabians living in southern part of the Peninsula, but the concept of "Arab" could have originated somewhere else or more north; by people who are not "black".
Though whatever the case may be it is interesting that the legends about Muhammad describe how Muhammad's apostle Khalid bin Al-Walid slayed the three great goddesses of the Arabs described as black women!
But like I said there are still indigenous black Arabians, especially parts of the Peninsula as @Poitier even noted. Such as the Tihama people.
Then you have the Mahra people.
Again there have always been native black Arabians...
But to get to the point. Here are early texts on the Arabs.
-Al Jahiz 9th century
Al Jahiz who was an Arab himself IIRC...
Assertion of 13th c. grammarian Ibn Manzur or Mandhur, 13th century in Lisaan al Arab, Vol. 4 (born in Tunis or northern Egypt).
Ibn Abd Rabbu of Cordoba born 9thc. in El Iqd el Farid (The Precious Necklace), quoting Shuraik el-Qadi a 7th century Arab of the clan of Nakha’l of the Maddhij in the Yemen.
- Al-Jahiz.of Iraq 9th century Book of the Glory of the Blacks
Again this is the early periods and there is much more.
Anyways you guys can take this post anyway, I'm just stating my 2cents. Dont really care who the original Arabs were, just stating that the argument is NOT illogical and there is evidence to back it up.
A more interesting argument imo is who the original people of the Arabian Peninsula were...
Now this is the million dollar question...
I think there is a strong case for Yemen and Israel being just as African as Madagascar or Cape Verde.
Isreal and southern Levant shares tectonic plates with Africa, but Yemen IDK...
Doesn't have to do with plates but actual walking distance...
Yemen and Horner migration have gone on since forever. Heck, 10,000 Yeminis have fled to Puntland in the past couple months. There is a huge phenotype overlap, as well.