World's Greatest Empire? (poll)

World's Greatest Empire?


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If we are talking about historical influence, and Ancient Greek City-States and Macedonia are not considered an empire, then it would definitely have to be the British Empire.

Their contributions to science, math, literature, civil law, legal system and branching of colonies is unparalleled.
 

superunknown23

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1. Christianity spread really in-spite of the Roman Empire....not because of it.
Christianity wouldn't be around today if Constantine didn't convert and the Roman Empire eventually followed suit :beli:
The US is the greatest empire simply because we do our shyt undercover (no need for old school colonialism) :win:
 

Shogun

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Christianity wouldn't be around today if Constantine didn't convert and the Roman Empire eventually followed suit :beli:

The Romans did their best to stomp out Christianity for 300 years. The fact that Constantine converted in 312 is more representative of the unstoppable force Christianity had become than anything else. Constantine was desperately attempting to drum up eastern support in yet another Roman civil war.

It was more a case of Constantine following suit.....

:beli::beli:

Which brings up another point why I wouldn't choose the Romans...
Everyone make so much out of their military might, yet they ignore the fact that over the course of the Empire Roman soldiers killed far more Roman soldiers in civil war than they did enemy soldiers. Most enemy armies simply capitulated via political maneuvering.
 

superunknown23

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It was more a case of Constantine following suit.....
bullshyt.
Without his conversion, christianity would've faded away from persecution just like the dozens of other non-pagan religions at the time.
His conversion and favoritism toward christianity ended the persecution of christians and made it preferable for Roman officials to convert too, in order to get promotions and favors within the Empire.

His conversion was the single biggest act that helped the spread of christianity.
 

Techniec

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very good conversation you guys are having, can both of yall bring some sources or documentation to back your claims?
 

Shogun

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bullshyt.
Without his conversion, christianity would've faded away from persecution just like the dozens of other non-pagan religions at the time.
His conversion and favoritism toward christianity ended the persecution of christians and made it preferable for Roman officials to convert too, in order to get promotions and favors within the Empire.

His conversion was the single biggest act that helped the spread of christianity.

very good conversation you guys are having, can both of yall bring some sources or documentation to back your claims?

Super, I respectfully disagree with your bolded. It will take me a while to properly lay out this argument (while chasing my son around at the same time), but will do my best to properly source it.

response in progress...
 

Shogun

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To say that Constantine's conversion was "the single biggest act" that helped spread Christianity is an over simplification, and essentially false. Such a statement suggests several assumptions which can be thoroughly proved false (given the sources available). Those assumptions are as follows:

1. Christianity was weak and insignificant prior to Constantine.

2. Constantine's own conversion was complete, and his character was such that any other emperor in his same situation wouldn't have done the same.

3. Constantine's conversion drastically altered Rome's policy towards Christianity.

So lets take these one at a time;

1. Christianity was weak and insignificant prior to Constantine.

Despite the best efforts of Rome, Christianity had clearly established a power base prior to the reign of Constantine (r. 272-337 ce). Roman persecution of Christianity in its initial centuries is well documented, particularly under the so called "bad emperors" such as Caligula (r. 37 - 41 ce) and Nero (r. 54 - 68 ce). During Nero's reign historian Tacitus, writing in 64 c.e. addresses the situation as follows:

...neither human resources, nor imperial generosity, nor appeasement of the gods, eliminated the sinister suspicion that the fire had been deliberately started. To stop the rumor, NERO, made scapegoats--and punished with every refinement the notoriously depraved CHRISTIANS (as they were popularly called). Their originator, CHRIST, had been executed in Tiberius' reign by the Procurator of Judaea, PONTIUS PILATUS (governor from 26 to 36 A.D.). But in spite of this temporary setback, the deadly superstition had broken out again, not just in Judaea (where the mischief had started) but even in Rome. All degraded and shameful practices collect and flourish in the capital. First, NERO had the self-admitted Christians arrested. Then, on their information, large numbers of others were condemned--not so much for starting fires as because of their hatred for the human race. Their deaths were made amusing. Dressed in wild animals' skins, they were torn to pieces by dogs, or crucified, or made into torches to be set on fire after dark as illumination.... Despite their guilt as Christians, and the ruthless punishment it deserved, the victims were pitied. For it was felt that they were being sacrificed to one man's brutality rather than to the national interest.
CHRISTIAN BEGINNINGS

In spite of this brutal treatment at the hands of the Emperor, Tacitu's makes evident that Christianity was spreading at an impressive rate, even achieving a noticeable population in the "Eternal City" itself as early as the 60's ce.

Less than 50 years later we already begin to see a shifting attitude towards the increasing Christian population in the Empire. In the year 112, Pliny the Younger, governor in the Roman province of Bithynia (modern day Turkey), faced a number of Christians in his court. It is unclear what the initial charges are, but he ultimately decided, despite the fact that the Christians seemed generally harmless to him, that he should execute them if they refused to recant their faith. Because he is unsure as to whether he can kill them legally for no other crime than their faith, he writes to the Emperor for advice. (Pliny's original letter can also be seen at the previous link). The Emperor Trajan's response marks an already sharp turn in Roman policy:

You have followed the right course of procedure, my dear Pliny, in your examination of the cases of persons charged with being Christians. For it is impossible to lay down a general rule to a fixed formula. These people must not be hunted out. But if they are brought before you and the charge against them is proved true, they must be punished. But in the case of anyone who denies that he is a Christian, and makes it clear that he is not, by offering prayers to our gods, he is to be pardoned as a result of his repentance--however suspect his conduct may have been in the past. But pamphlets circulated anonymously must play NO part in any accusation. They create the worst precedent, and are quite out of keeping with the spirit of our age.
CHRISTIAN BEGINNINGS

While Trajan does affirm Pliny's actions, he also instructs him to avoid actively hunting Christians and to allow convicted Christians every opportunity to recommit themselves to Roman gods. If you consider the Roman affinity for custom and tradition, this is a very drastically different approach than 50 years prior.

Additionally, at a time when correspondence between a provincial governor in Anatolia and the Emperor in Rome was far from easy, why would Pliny waste time worrying about Christians in his province if they were, to that point, and insignificant population?

To this effect, by the year 200 ce Christianity was well established in the eastern half of the Roman empire.

Map_-_Spread_of_Christianity_200-400.jpg


It is also worth noting that by 200 ce the eastern half of the empire was quickly becoming the economic and cultural base of Rome. So much so, in fact, that by Constantine's reign at the the turn of the 4th century he moved the capitol of the Roman Empire from Rome to his own, new city of Constantinople (modern day Istanbul) om the European side of the Turkish Straights.


2. Constantine's own conversion was complete, and his character was such that any other emperor in his same situation wouldn't have done the same.

It is well documented that even Constantine himself never truly committed to Christianity. This can be proved quickly:
Follis-Constantine-lyons_RIC_VI_309.jpg

Here is a coin minted 5 years after Constantine's conversion. The perfectly pagan deity Sol Invictus can be readily identified standing on the reverse side of the coin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sol_Invictus). In fact, Christ was simply another Diety in the polytheistic pantheon sponsored by Constantine.

This bring's into question Constantine's motives for conversion. At the time of his conversion Constantine was embroiled in a bloody civil war against the other would-be emperor Maxentius. In the year 312 Constantine seemed to be on the losing end of this struggle when, according to him, he saw a vision of the Greek chi rho symbol, which he interpreted as a message from Christ to accept him as a god. Now, If you would like to believe that fine, however the more logical situation would be that Constantine was making a play to drum up support from the increasingly substantial Christian population in the eastern half of the empire.

Had his conversion been genuine he surely would have followed its first commandment, Thou shalt have no other gods before me, Which he clearly did not, as proven by the coin above, and the fact that Constantine was deified after his death.

3. Constantine's conversion drastically altered Rome's policy towards Christianity.

As we have seen in Trajan's response to Pliny in the 2nd century, Roman persecution of Christianity was already beginning to lose intensity. Under the reign of Constantine, over 150 years later, all that was really accomplished was the Edict of Mediolanum in 313, which states:

When I, Constantine Augustus, as well as I, Licinius Augustus, had fortunately met near Mediolanum (Milan), and were considering everything that pertained to the public welfare and security, we thought that among other things which we saw would be for the good of many, that those regulations pertaining to the reverence of the Divinity ought certainly to be made first, so that we might grant to the Christians and to all others full authority to observe that religion which each preferred; whence any Divinity whatsoever in the seat of the heavens may be propitious and kindly disposed to us, and all who are placed under our rule. And thus by this wholesome counsel and most upright provision, we thought to arrange that no one whatever should be denied the opportunity to give his heart to the observance of the Christian religion or of that religion which he should think best for himself, so that the supreme Deity, to whose worship we freely yield our hearts, may show in all things his usual favor and benevolence. Therefore, your Worship should know that it has pleased us to remove all conditions whatsoever, which were in the rescripts formerly given to you officially, concerning the Christians, and now any one of these who wishes to observe the Christian religion may do so freely and openly, without any disturbance or molestation. ... When you see that this has been granted to them by us, your Worship will know that we have also conceded to other religions the right of open and free observance of their worship for the sake of the peace of our times, that each one may have the free opportunity to worship as he pleases; this regulation is made that we may not seem to detract aught from any dignity or any religion. ...

In other words, tolerance of ALL RELIGIONS was granted under Constantine.

The fact that Christianity continued to spread was indicative more of its own momentum, rather then the conspicuous conversion of Constantine. It seems likely that if any other religion had significantly taken hold in the Empire it would have been that religion which Constantine converted. Even still, the religion still didn't quite take hold amongst the notoriously ultra-conservative Romans:

population.jpg
 

superunknown23

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All that blabber... yet it still doesn't negate the FACT that Constantine's conversion was the key act that helped the survival of Christianity over dozens of other small cults of the time.

Had he converted to another non-pagan cult (there were dozens of them with equal following as christianity), that religion would've been the one to survive the persecutions.
After his conversion, if you were a Roman, it was in your best interest to convert too. He granted privileges, tax exemptions and favors to officials who followed suit. Those who didn't had to pay special taxes. That's how christianity took off in Rome.

While christianity coexisted freely with other religions of the time, Theodosius I was the one who declared it the official religion of Rome (to the exclusion and persecution of others).
 

Shogun

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All that blabber... yet it still doesn't negate the FACT that Constantine's conversion was the key act that helped the survival of Christianity over dozens of other small cults of the time.

Had he converted to another non-pagan cult (there were dozens of them with equal following as christianity), that religion would've been the one to survive the persecutions.
After his conversion, if you were a Roman, it was in your best interest to convert too. He granted privileges, tax exemptions and favors to officials who followed suit. Those who didn't had to pay special taxes. That's how christianity took off in Rome.

While christianity coexisted freely with other religions of the time, Theodosius I was the one who declared it the official religion of Rome (to the exclusion and persecution of others).

:dead:

I love the COLI

:youngsabo:
 

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To say that Constantine's conversion was "the single biggest act" that helped spread Christianity is an over simplification, and essentially false. Such a statement suggests several assumptions which can be thoroughly proved false (given the sources available). Those assumptions are as follows:

1. Christianity was weak and insignificant prior to Constantine.

2. Constantine's own conversion was complete, and his character was such that any other emperor in his same situation wouldn't have done the same.

3. Constantine's conversion drastically altered Rome's policy towards Christianity.

So lets take these one at a time;

1. Christianity was weak and insignificant prior to Constantine.

Despite the best efforts of Rome, Christianity had clearly established a power base prior to the reign of Constantine (r. 272-337 ce). Roman persecution of Christianity in its initial centuries is well documented, particularly under the so called "bad emperors" such as Caligula (r. 37 - 41 ce) and Nero (r. 54 - 68 ce). During Nero's reign historian Tacitus, writing in 64 c.e. addresses the situation as follows:



In spite of this brutal treatment at the hands of the Emperor, Tacitu's makes evident that Christianity was spreading at an impressive rate, even achieving a noticeable population in the "Eternal City" itself as early as the 60's ce.

Less than 50 years later we already begin to see a shifting attitude towards the increasing Christian population in the Empire. In the year 112, Pliny the Younger, governor in the Roman province of Bithynia (modern day Turkey), faced a number of Christians in his court. It is unclear what the initial charges are, but he ultimately decided, despite the fact that the Christians seemed generally harmless to him, that he should execute them if they refused to recant their faith. Because he is unsure as to whether he can kill them legally for no other crime than their faith, he writes to the Emperor for advice. (Pliny's original letter can also be seen at the previous link). The Emperor Trajan's response marks an already sharp turn in Roman policy:



While Trajan does affirm Pliny's actions, he also instructs him to avoid actively hunting Christians and to allow convicted Christians every opportunity to recommit themselves to Roman gods. If you consider the Roman affinity for custom and tradition, this is a very drastically different approach than 50 years prior.

Additionally, at a time when correspondence between a provincial governor in Anatolia and the Emperor in Rome was far from easy, why would Pliny waste time worrying about Christians in his province if they were, to that point, and insignificant population?

To this effect, by the year 200 ce Christianity was well established in the eastern half of the Roman empire.

Map_-_Spread_of_Christianity_200-400.jpg


It is also worth noting that by 200 ce the eastern half of the empire was quickly becoming the economic and cultural base of Rome. So much so, in fact, that by Constantine's reign at the the turn of the 4th century he moved the capitol of the Roman Empire from Rome to his own, new city of Constantinople (modern day Istanbul) om the European side of the Turkish Straights.


2. Constantine's own conversion was complete, and his character was such that any other emperor in his same situation wouldn't have done the same.

It is well documented that even Constantine himself never truly committed to Christianity. This can be proved quickly:
Follis-Constantine-lyons_RIC_VI_309.jpg

Here is a coin minted 5 years after Constantine's conversion. The perfectly pagan deity Sol Invictus can be readily identified standing on the reverse side of the coin (Sol Invictus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia). In fact, Christ was simply another Diety in the polytheistic pantheon sponsored by Constantine.

This bring's into question Constantine's motives for conversion. At the time of his conversion Constantine was embroiled in a bloody civil war against the other would-be emperor Maxentius. In the year 312 Constantine seemed to be on the losing end of this struggle when, according to him, he saw a vision of the Greek chi rho symbol, which he interpreted as a message from Christ to accept him as a god. Now, If you would like to believe that fine, however the more logical situation would be that Constantine was making a play to drum up support from the increasingly substantial Christian population in the eastern half of the empire.

Had his conversion been genuine he surely would have followed its first commandment, Thou shalt have no other gods before me, Which he clearly did not, as proven by the coin above, and the fact that Constantine was deified after his death.

3. Constantine's conversion drastically altered Rome's policy towards Christianity.

As we have seen in Trajan's response to Pliny in the 2nd century, Roman persecution of Christianity was already beginning to lose intensity. Under the reign of Constantine, over 150 years later, all that was really accomplished was the Edict of Mediolanum in 313, which states:



In other words, tolerance of ALL RELIGIONS was granted under Constantine.

The fact that Christianity continued to spread was indicative more of its own momentum, rather then the conspicuous conversion of Constantine. It seems likely that if any other religion had significantly taken hold in the Empire it would have been that religion which Constantine converted. Even still, the religion still didn't quite take hold amongst the notoriously ultra-conservative Romans:

population.jpg



Fantastic post sir.
 
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