Womanhood

[Elle Driver]

They NEVER discuss deadbeats here. Contrary to popular Coli logic all types of men can be deadbeats not just "thugs". Then when you point out that whit mothers of mulatto children are often left single mothers they go quiet. There is a pervasive problem that's not being addressed.

Hotep nikkas be like: "the black woman is God and must protect her womb". But then, at the same time, they be talking about wanting to impregnate, go raw in a chick, protect they assets (). The deadbeat is actually being perpetuated by them when they say that shyt themselves.

and this is a great thread even with all the side tracks

I wonder if she feels the same way about herself. Does she know that life doesn't always work in a way that you want it to? I've always been confused by women that bought into that, like of course I can understand why a man would think that, it's a controlling mechanism, make women think that they're nothing if they aren't submitting to a man. But why would a woman think that? or teach her daughters that? That's how women end up relationships with men that are molesting/raping their children and they stay, or end up with men that cheat on them and abuse them but they won't leave because they believe they're nothing without them.

I think, again, the issue is subservience and black women are just not naturally subservient women. We can be submissive yes, but not in the harmful way that men tend to believe and think. Marriage is a partnership. See that's another problem. Did you peep that marriage thread in the Root Juicy? One dude said he'd rather be a single father than be married. Black folks are just not getting married as much, because in the beginning we lost our bonds because we were being sold separately, and then black men became victim to the prison system so we had to make due. But not believing in the sanctity of marriage but wanting children is very harmful. And yet, they make complaints about child support. Where is the logic?

 

[PlainSight]

and this is a great thread even with all the side tracks

I wonder if she feels the same way about herself. Does she know that life doesn't always work in a way that you want it to? I've always been confused by women that bought into that, like of course I can understand why a man would think that, it's a controlling mechanism, make women think that they're nothing if they aren't submitting to a man. But why would a woman think that? or teach her daughters that? That's how women end up relationships with men that are molesting/raping their children and they stay, or end up with men that cheat on them and abuse them but they won't leave because they believe they're nothing without them.

It's likely indoctrinated to the point where it's carried via DNA (speculative opinion, not backed by research!). There are a lot of women who are happy to uphold traditions considered to be patriarchal in nature. You still see remnants of this in those corny instagram & facebook pictures about what a "queen" does or does not do.

 

[Ashley Banks]

It's likely indoctrinated to the point where it's carried via DNA (speculative opinion, not backed by research!). There are a lot of women who are happy to uphold traditions considered to be patriarchal in nature. You still see remnants of this in those corny instagram & facebook pictures about what a "queen" does or does not do.

I honestly see nothing wrong with upholding traditions, believing in gender roles, wanting to be submissive etc. I usually have the same 2 problems, 1. those women think all women should be like them and shyt on any woman that feels differently and 2. they don't think about the damage it does when they tell women they're nothing without a man. Not all men are good, there are men actively look to hurt women or make them miserable, when you tell a woman she's nothing past 28 if she doesn't have a man, what do you think she's going to do when she's 30 and in a relationship with a man that rapes her and abuses her?

and I always cringe at those "queen"" and "king" FB/IG pictures. lmao

 

[Remote]

This thread is enlightening

 

[Elle Driver]

I honestly see nothing wrong with upholding traditions, believing in gender roles, wanting to be submissive etc. I usually have the same 2 problems, 1. those women think all women should be like them and shyt on any woman that feels differently and 2. they don't think about the damage it does when they tell women they're nothing without a man. Not all men are good, there are men actively look to hurt women or make them miserable, when you tell a woman she's nothing past 28 if she doesn't have a man, what do you think she's going to do when she's 30 and in a relationship with a man that rapes her and abuses her?

and I always cringe at those "queen"" and "king" FB/IG pictures. lmao

That's thing about womanism, it's supposed to represent all spectrums of the black woman, we're not just supposed to uphold one part of gender roles. That's harmful because not all of us want that and not all of us want to live up to that at all.

 

[Elle Driver]

It's likely indoctrinated to the point where it's carried via DNA (speculative opinion, not backed by research!). There are a lot of women who are happy to uphold traditions considered to be patriarchal in nature. You still see remnants of this in those corny instagram & facebook pictures about what a "queen" does or does not do.

It is indoctrination and it's a lot of pressure to live up to an idealized norm, that's why I consider it harmful.

Also like I said before, as black women we just can't win, because we even internalize this within ourselves. For ex. a stay at home mother would be looked at as a kept woman, which has not been a luxury for black women for a long time. We're supposed to "do for self". I even struggle with that thinking myself. We're told to be independent to the point where if a man wants to take care of you, you struggle with it. I've been independent since I was about 16 years old so being newly married and having a man take care of me is a struggle that I'm learning to let go of. A lot of black women deal with it too.

 

[PlainSight]

I honestly see nothing wrong with upholding traditions, believing in gender roles, wanting to be submissive etc. I usually have the same 2 problems, 1. those women think all women should be like them and shyt on any woman that feels differently and 2. they don't think about the damage it does when they tell women they're nothing without a man. Not all men are good, there are men actively look to hurt women or make them miserable, when you tell a woman she's nothing past 28 if she doesn't have a man, what do you think she's going to do when she's 30 and in a relationship with a man that rapes her and abuses her?

and I always cringe at those "queen"" and "king" FB/IG pictures. lmao

I think whatever dynamic works for you is the one you should seek and find balance with. If that's traditional gender roles and such, that's all cool. As you say, it is when people project their ideals onto others and shame them for not living up to it when those ideals are the wants of others rather than the self - and I find it's something that both genders suffer from, but it seems to affect women in a far more insidious way. Even women who don't identify as feminists clock that dynamic in action.

It is indoctrination and it's a lot of pressure to live up to an idealized norm, that's why I consider it harmful.

Also like I said before, as black women we just can't win, because we even internalize this within ourselves. For ex. a stay at home mother would be looked at as a kept woman, which has not been a luxury for black women for a long time. We're supposed to "do for self". I even struggle with that thinking myself. We're told to be independent to the point where if a man wants to take care of you, you struggle with it. I've been independent since I was about 16 years old so being newly married and having a man take care of me is a struggle that I'm learning to let go of. A lot of black women deal with it too.

A woman I talk to was worried about turning 30 and still being single, I actually had to reassure her it didn't matter but I could only give her my word because a lot of vindictive people are content to damage the self worth of others with a harmful narrative. Once indoctrinated, the story remains prevalent in your mind, because you repeat the story to yourself. Even the slut-shaming dynamic is similar - torn between a desire for a varied sex life but repressing it out of fear of ridicule and disrespect. I think it's important that women are in a position to dictate their own narrative.

Spoiler: referencing man specifically

The peak thing is that one of the reasons why it's difficult for guys to support womanism from an ally perspective is that one is subject to ridicule also, which discourages any man from being adequate support. Hence why I understand why women are skeptical about men aligning themselves with feminism and the like. I've lost count the amount of times I've brought these topics up around solely men and been called a white knight or a p*ssy beggar

 

[agnosticlady]

I guess your definition of sexism is different from the dictionary definition. Even you're sexist to women, yet you don't think sexism is rampant. You've called multiple women cat ladies, old hags, and bitter because they disagreed with you. Something a lot of men (including black men) do. But I deal with sexism allll the time,Thinking I should be submissive just because I'm a woman, being told I shouldn't make my career more important than finding a man and getting married, being told my education and my career aren't more important than serving a man, being told I will be worthless after a certain age (something you agree with so I guess this isn't sexism to you), being told that the only reason I'm successful is because I'm attractive, telling me I can't wear certain things because I'm too "distracting" and a ton of other shyt but you get the point.

I don't believe that women should be treated like doormats, or trash. If you were to apply to a job at an auto shop to fix cars and the manager laughs in your face saying that you can not do it then that is sexist. If you want to enter a nuclear physics brain bowl competition and they bar you from entering due to your sex that is sexist. If you want to be the next Vice President and someone tells you that you can't because you are a woman then that is sexist. Telling a woman that she should not compete in the NFL with other men because she would pummeled to the ground is not sexist. That is common sense. Men and women are not equal biologically and are not wired the same. Men are stronger than women and can easily hurt a woman in a fight. I don't even think men and women are equal. That's likes trying to make a chef and a pilot equal. No they are both great in their own respect, and should be appreciated for what they bring to the table.
Do you know what it means to be submissive as a woman? It doesn't mean to be a meek doormat. If a man truly loves you and respects you he will not talk to you any type of way. He will not go out of his way to disrespect you, or embarrass you. Most women who are with men like that knew they were like that and still chose to stay with them, so I really don't feel sorry for them.You choose who you enter a relationship with. Being submissive means knowing when to fall back and let a man lead and take charge. Being submissive is when your man asks you to fix him a plate, instead of saying sure one say's, "Why should I cook for you? You have two hands! Do it yourself!". Being submissive means not always trying to challenge someone.
Your education and career is important. No man of means wants a woman who doesn't even have a high school diploma. The issue is that a lot of women do not look at reality and play their cards right. 1. Whether or not a woman wants to admit it her youth is valuable. Is she worthless once she is 55? No not at all. If she ONLY placed value on her looks then yes she becomes worthless and bitter. When a woman is in her physical prime she should try to marry a man of means and worth. She should try to pull in attention through her physical beauty and then gain the mans appreciation with her personality and ethics. When a woman is physically attractive men will approach her. So when a woman is 45 and single, never married, there were no good men at all?? 2. There are many women who get a masters in social work or early education and act as if they are the best thing since sliced bread. Some of those women aren't even making over $50,000 a year yet they feel as if their fading looks (your looks do fade no matter how attractive you were), terrible personality (they never worked on it), and ok salary should get them any man they want. I rarely see men ever do this. The only time I see men act as if they are better than others because of their degree is when they get one from an Ivy League University. You can get a good man while focusing on school and working. I will say this - from what I have seen most men do not marry the CEO career women, because they tend to devote all their time to work and not the family.
Lastly if you dress like a whore please do not be shocked when a man approaches you as if you are undeserving of respect and only good enough to be a jump off.

 

[MoonGoddess]

Fishy fishy....

 

[Ashley Banks]

That's thing about womanism, it's supposed to represent all spectrums of the black woman, we're not just supposed to uphold one part of gender roles. That's harmful because not all of us want that and not all of us want to live up to that at all.

I even agree with some of the traditions, like I love cooking for my fiance and I have no problem following his lead, if I agree but I refuse to be submissive I'll die before that happens. But I would never belittle a woman because she felt differently.

I think, again, the issue is subservience and black women are just not naturally subservient women. We can be submissive yes, but not in the harmful way that men tend to believe and think. Marriage is a partnership. See that's another problem. Did you peep that marriage thread in the Root Juicy? One dude said he'd rather be a single father than be married. Black folks are just not getting married as much, because in the beginning we lost our bonds because we were being sold separately, and then black men became victim to the prison system so we had to make due. But not believing in the sanctity of marriage but wanting children is very harmful. And yet, they make complaints about child support. Where is the logic?

I think a lot of them just don't know what they want to do. I've seen them say that you don't need to be married to have a family then turn around and shyt on women that have children out of wedlock. They're just all over the place. They want children but they're not willing to get married and give those kids a chance at a decent life because they're scared.

 

[Elle Driver]

I even agree with some of the traditions, like I love cooking for my fiance and I have no problem following his lead, if I agree but I refuse to be submissive I'll die before that happens. But I would never belittle a woman because she felt differently.







I think a lot of them just don't know what they want to do. I've seen them say that you don't need to be married to have a family then turn around and shyt on women that have children out of wedlock. They're just all over the place. They want children but they're not willing to get married and give those kids a chance at a decent life because they're scared.

Submissiveness is more code word for throwing your own needs to the wayside because we are "responsible for a man's happiness".

 

[agnosticlady]

I'll humor you, being that you're Nigerian, but let's talk about single motherhood. Black women are shamed for being single mothers but we barely hear the same rhetoric about dead beat fathers because the blame is put on the woman for going through with her pregnancy and keeping the baby.

I'll be honest and blunt. MOST women know what they are dealing with when the decide to enter a relationship. The thing is many think that they can change the man when they are in the relationship. They know he's a bum. lazy, Dope boy, disrespectful, rude, abusive, and etc. Many choose to overlook it out of fear of being alone or feel like they won't be able to get another man. Some women enjoy that behavior. Now these young ladies enter relationships with men they are not married to, and WILLINGLY have unprotected sex with them. Then they get pregnant and there is a baby. Now the bummy immature dude she was with doesn't want to be a father. Are you really surprised? I knew several chicks like this in high school, and I know several now. I know one chick who got pregnant AGAIN by a bummy ass dude who sits up and smokes weed all day. He can't even hold down a job. She is going crazy looking for a job that pays more, yet she still stays with this dude. If you touch fire once you would know not to touch it again. If you get pregnant once by a bum and while you are not married why would you do it again?
Now it's one thing if you have 1 kid out of wedlock. I get it sometimes we meet a person and think we will be with them forever. Sometimes the parents don't give you great advice when it comes to relationships. I understand when it comes to the first child, but let's be real some of these women go on to have to 2+ kids, but with dudes that owe them no loyalty. That is why I say that women need to get married to good men before having kids. A boyfriend owes you know loyalty at all. He can up and walk away whenever he chooses to. A husband is totally different.
So, honestly I rarely ever feel sorry for women who complain about their no good baby daddies that are dead beat and don't help take care of the kids. I'm not talking about women who got divorced. I'm talking about women who have kids out of wedlock. MOST women know the guy is worthless form jump. If the women stopped procreating with the guy those men would die off and have no seeds. Unless you are raped a man can not get you pregnant without your consent.

 

[Ashley Banks]

I don't believe that women should be treated like doormats, or trash. If you were to apply to a job at an auto shop to fix cars and the manager laughs in your face saying that you can not do it then that is sexist. If you want to enter a nuclear physics brain bowl competition and they bar you from entering due to your sex that is sexist. If you want to be the next Vice President and someone tells you that you can't because you are a woman then that is sexist. Telling a woman that she should not compete in the NFL with other men because she would pummeled to the ground is not sexist. That is common sense. Men and women are not equal biologically and are not wired the same. Men are stronger than women and can easily hurt a woman in a fight. I don't even think men and women are equal. That's likes trying to make a chef and a pilot equal. No they are both great in their own respect, and should be appreciated for what they bring to the table.

So you think treating a woman like trash and telling a woman she can't do something because of her gender are the only ways to be sexist. Weird but ok, I know not all people view the world the same. But sexism is more than just treatment, telling a woman should do something just because she is a woman is sexism as well.

Do you know what it means to be submissive as a woman? It doesn't mean to be a meek doormat. If a man truly loves you and respects you he will not talk to you any type of way. He will not go out of his way to disrespect you, or embarrass you. Most women who are with men like that knew they were like that and still chose to stay with them, so I really don't feel sorry for them.You choose who you enter a relationship with. Being submissive means knowing when to fall back and let a man lead and take charge. Being submissive is when your man asks you to fix him a plate, instead of saying sure one say's, "Why should I cook for you? You have two hands! Do it yourself!". Being submissive means not always trying to challenge someone.

Yes, I know what being submissive is and I don't want to do it and I shouldn't be expected to do it just because I have a vagina.

Your education and career is important. No man of means wants a woman who doesn't even have a high school diploma. The issue is that a lot of women do not look at reality and play their cards right. 1. Whether or not a woman wants to admit it her youth is valuable. Is she worthless once she is 55? No not at all. If she ONLY placed value on her looks then yes she becomes worthless and bitter. When a woman is in her physical prime she should try to marry a man of means and worth. She should try to pull in attention through her physical beauty and then gain the mans appreciation with her personality and ethics. When a woman is physically attractive men will approach her. So when a woman is 45 and single, never married, there were no good men at all??

The point I was making is not all women want to get married or think marriage is important. But if a woman talks about her goals and doesn't include a man and children in those goals, they automatically go into shaming her (kind of like you just did) talking about her prime and her looks without considering that she might be a lesbian or asexual or might not be interested in marriage and children.

2. There are many women who get a masters in social work or early education and act as if they are the best thing since sliced bread. Some of those women aren't even making over $50,000 a year yet they feel as if their fading looks (your looks do fade no matter how attractive you were), terrible personality (they never worked on it), and ok salary should get them any man they want. I rarely see men ever do this. The only time I see men act as if they are better than others because of their degree is when they get one from an Ivy League University. You can get a good man while focusing on school and working. I will say this - from what I have seen most men do not marry the CEO career women, because they tend to devote all their time to work and not the family.

@ the bold You sound like a typical coli male saying this. lol not accusing you of being one but literally multiple coli males have said this exact thing to me. However I've never come across a female with a degree that has acted like they're better than me. I've ran into more men that do that.

Lastly if you dress like a whore please do not be shocked when a man approaches you as if you are undeserving of respect and only good enough to be a jump off.

who said I was "dressed like a whore", I was at work, I was wearing a knee length dress that was 1 size too big. It's odd how you automatically assumed I was dressed like a "whore".

 

[agnosticlady]

So you think treating a woman like trash and telling a woman she can't do something because of her gender are the only ways to be sexist. Weird but ok, I know not all people view the world the same. But sexism is more than just treatment, telling a woman should do something just because she is a woman is sexism as well.



Yes, I know what being submissive is and I don't want to do it and I shouldn't be expected to do it just because I have a vagina.



The point I was making is not all women want to get married or think marriage is important. But if a woman talks about her goals and doesn't include a man and children in those goals, they automatically go into shaming her (kind of like you just did) talking about her prime and her looks without considering that she might be a lesbian or asexual or might not be interested in marriage and children.



@ the bold You sound like a typical coli male saying this. lol not accusing you of being one but literally multiple coli males have said this exact thing to me. However I've never come across a female with a degree that has acted like they're better than me. I've ran into more men that do that.



who said I was "dressed like a whore", I was at work, I was wearing a knee length dress that was 1 size too big. It's odd how you automatically assumed I was dressed like a "whore".

Ok give me examples and situations of when YOU have experienced sexism

What is wrong with your boyfriend or fiance asking you to make him dinner? What is wrong with cooking for a man that you love? If your car is broken, you need a light bulb screwed in, you need a shower rod fixed, you need your lawn mowed, your car checked, you need help moving heavy objects, and etc I'm sure the man that you are with will gladly do it. Who said it had anything to do with having a vagina? What is wrong with feeding your man? The man is the protector of the family. If you're walking down the street with him and someone tries to attack you he is going to be the one to defend you.

If you do not want to get married then do not get married. Everyone does not have to get married, but one shouldn't complain when you have a kid out of wedlock and the man walks out. One should not complain when you are 55 and alone. I see women all the time crying, "Where are all the good men". If you are a lesbian or asexual OBVIOUSLY you are out of the equation. Why would you even care if you are asexual or a lesbian? You have no attraction to the opposite sex. If a woman is talking about her goals and careers I would not judge her, but if she wants to get married and have a family she should not wait until she is 33 to start looking. Everybody ages and get's old. One day Beyonce will look like compete dust. It doesn't matter how attractive you are now, because you will get old. The point is that many women waste their youth instead of taking advantage of it.

To each it's own I run into more women who act as if they are the best thing since sliced bread because they finally got a masters in psychology.

You said you should not be judged for how you dress? What man is stressing over a woman with a skirt that is one size bigger and reaches her knees. Where are you being judged for you are dressed? You mentioned being judged for how are you are dressed. The only time I see a man approach a woman with sexual intentions solely on his mind is when she is dressed like a whore.

 

[Taadow]

It's always been the same breh, only black men's struggles are allowed to be talked about. Look at you now, we're talking about womanhood and women's struggles and you guys came in here talking about "what about men". We cant even have a discussion about women's problems in the salon that was made for women without you guys taking offense to everything and bringing up whats going on with men. In threads about black men you guys are never like "but what about the things black women face" but the minute black women say anything about what we deal with it's immediately mocked and then you bring up black men. Not fair.

But to answer your questions

First off - don't come at me talkin' about what "you guys" did.
If you've got a problem with something I particularly did, let's talk about that.
Don't lump all of us together - we are not the same.

For the record - I didn't come in here to antagonize anyone.
I came in here because frankly I was curious, and as it stands I am dealing with something
comparable in my own life.

For the record, also - I didn't even "take offense" to anything - I simply asked Elle Driver for
clarification of something she said.

yes, were allowed to speak up when were talking about black men and boys and things they go through but the minute we bring up the stuff black women and girls deal with, we're swiftly reminded of how little our problems matter to most.

The point of my statement was that it doesn't matter what is seemingly "allowed", i'm sure everyone
knows that Black women are not known to hold their tongue on anything they deem unfair or wrong.

We do, we have no problem with that.

Are you sure? It seems that you would (and understandingly so, given this thread) have
problems with that...

No, we know that black men have struggles beyond racism, do we think the sexism they deal with is on the level that women deal with? No.

That's not what I asked. I didn't ask if you know that Black men have struggles beyond racism.
I asked if you thought that Black men are not just Black, but also men - as a Black woman is also a
woman.

And for that matter, why do we have to have a "who's pain is more painful" match?

Just to let you know how men get when black women bring up sexism, you just asked Elle driver these questions. She ALWAYS speaks up for black men and is never unfair to them but because she's focusing on black women in this thread, you forgot all about that.

I have no knowledge of Elle Driver's record on this type of thing because frankly,
I don't frequent many combat threads.

And again - I didn't even ask these questions in malice. I was asking her viewpoint.



That's sweet of you to stick up for your friend and all, but I was just asking...asking her.
She can answer or not.