Islam led the way to modern civilization, period. From mathematical, scientific, and philosophical studies ... to freckin hygiene... where do you think the West got all that from? Christianity didn't lead the way to Civilization in the West. Read a book... Starting with Charles the Hammer Christianity led the way to colonization, elimination, and mental destruction of any people out side of Europe. Why don't we have Native American's walking around? Because people used Christianity to justify the genocide of an entire race of people --- when exactly has Islam done that? Muslim slaves from Africa were forced to adopt Christianity or be beaten to death..... hmmm I wonder y that is?
Why do Muslims feel the need to respond violently to everything which "offends" Islam
- Thread starter FijiWatr
- Start date
Hulk Hogan
THE HULKSTER BROTHER
THEN WHAT ACCURATE MANUSCRIPT DID YOU COMPARE THEM TO, BROTHER? ARE YOU JUST TALKING ABOUT ENGLISH TRANSLATIONS, DUDE? HOW MANY LANGUAGES CAN YOU READ, MEAN GENE?
SOURCE, BROTHER? THE HULKSTER CAN'T READ GREEK OR LATIN, JACK!
Hulk Hogan
THE HULKSTER BROTHER
THERE'S NO WAY TO VERIFY THAT, BROTHER!
YOU SAY IT WAS VERY THOROUGHLY TRANSCRIBED BY MEN AND THEN YOU'RE AMAZED IT WAS PROOFREAD, DUDE? I'M JUST ASKING IF YOU'RE CLAIMING KNOWLEDGE OR FAITH, MEAN GENE!
I can read two languages.. both of which are irrelevant to this sh1t. But I've studied religion. I know what I'm saying is true..
the real question you should be asking is why the trinity doctrine was included centuries later..... or why Jesus was born in a random stable.. when he wasn't. Or why sexism was added. or Mary had to have a baby without giving any p*ssy up... or y Intercession pray was add ($$) , OR why it went from just straight up saying Jews kill Jesus to the Romans did it with the help of others. ....(oldest bibles say Jews), Plus they took out a story of a woman who was about to be killed by the Jews for getting smashed... until Jesus stepped in. There are social reasons for these changes.
Also, because many of the bibles today are based of KJ translations and corruptions.. we are left with BS. Roman leaders started the process of Biblical canonization and CAC have been flipping ideas and scriptures ever since.
Hulk Hogan
THE HULKSTER BROTHER
I'M JUST ASKING FOR YOU TO SOURCE THE THINGS YOU'RE SAYING, BROTHER! THESE ARE RATHER BOLD CLAIMS AND YOU'RE SUPPORTING THEM WITH NOTHING SO FAR, DUDE!
:obama3:
You can't be serious with these comments.
Christianity led the way in the civilization of the west which led it to spreading across the world. (Check the flags of
former super power England...It has a cross in it)
Also check the British flag. The cross is right and center
If Islam led the way to modern civilization why is most Islamic countries sh!tholes?
Islam stifles innovation, you cannot be a productive member of society when you have to bow down 5 times a day to a fraudulent being.
Every country which has Islam as a dominate force will never see any scientific and technological advancements because all innovations will be stifled.
You refuse to look at the mountain of evidence which shows Islam is destructive force not a productive one in the modern world.
My source is the Qur'an itself. Why don't you read it and the hadiths? You probably don't want to because you already have a bias.
As the Revelation progressed, the Prophet and the believers following him recited the text by heart and it was also written down by the scribes in his following. It therefore starts off with two elements of authenticity that the Gospels do not possess. This continued up to the Prophet's death. At a time when not everybody could write, but everyone was able to recite, recitation afforded a considerable advantage because of the double-checking possible when the definitive text was compiled.
The Quranic Revelation was made by Archangel Gabriel to Muhammad. It took place over a period of more than twenty years of the Prophet's life, beginning with the first verses of Sura 96, then resuming after a three-year break for a long period of twenty years up to the death of the Prophet in 632 A.D., i.e. ten years before Hijirah and ten years after Hijirah. [Muhammad's departure from Makka to Madina, 622 A.D.]
The following was the first Revelation (sura 96, verses 1 to 5) [ Prophet Muhammad was totally overwhelmed by these words. We shall return to an interpretation of them, especially with regard to the fact that Muhammad could neither read nor write.].
"Read: In the name of thy Lord who created,
Who created man from something which clings
Read! Thy Lord is the most Noble
Who taught by the pen
Who taught man what he did not know."
Professor Hamidullah notes in the Introduction to his French translation of the Quran that one of the themes of this first Revelation was the 'praise of the pen as a means of human knowledge' which would 'explain the Prophet's concern for the preservation of the Quran in writing.'
Texts formally prove that long before the Prophet left Makka for Madina (i.e. long before Hegira), the Quranic text so far revealed had been written down. We shall see how the Quran is authentic in this. We know that Muhammad and the Believers who surrounded him were accustomed to reciting the revealed text from memory. It is therefore inconceivable for the Quran to refer to facts that did not square with reality because the latter could so easily be checked with people in the Prophet's following, by asking the authors of the transcription.
Four suras dating from a period prior to Hegira refer to the writing down of the Quran before the Prophet left Makka in 622 (sura 80, verses 11 to 16):
"By no means! Indeed it is a message of instruction
Therefore whoever wills, should remember
On leaves held in honor
Exalted, purified
In the hands of scribes
Noble and pious."
Yusuf Ali, in the commentary to his translation, 1934, wrote that when the Revelation of this sura was made, forty-two or forty-five others had been written and were kept by Muslims in Makka (out of a total of 114).
--Sura 85, verses 21 and 22:
"Nay, this is a glorious reading [In the text: Quran which also means 'reading'.]
On a preserved tablet"
--Sura 56, verses 77 to 80:
"This is a glorious reading
In a book well kept Which none but the purified teach.
This is a Revelation from the Lord of the Worlds."
--Sura 25, verse 5:
"They said: Tales of the ancients which he has caused to be written and they are dictated to him morning and evening."
Here we have a reference to the accusations made by the Prophet's enemies who treated him as an imposter. They spread the rumour that stories of antiquity were being dictated to him and he was writing them down or having them transcribed (the meaning of the word is debatable, but one must remember that Muhammad was illiterate). However this may be, the verse refers to this act of making a written record which is pointed out by Muhammad's enemies themselves.
A sura that came after Hijira makes one last mention of the leaves on which these divine instructions were written:
--Sura 98, verses 2 and 3:
"An (apostle) from God recites leaves
Kept pure where are decrees right and straight."
The Quran itself therefore provides indications as to the fact that it was set down in writing at the time of the Prophet. It is a known fact that there were several scribes in his following, the most famous of whom, Zaid Ibn Thâbit, has left his name to posterity.
In the preface to his French translation of the Quran (1971), Professor Hamidullah gives an excellent description of the conditions that prevailed when the text of the Quran was written, lasting up until the time of the Prophet's death:
"The sources all agree in stating that whenever a fragment of the Quran was revealed, the Prophet called one of his literate companions and dictated it to him, indicating at the same time the exact position of the new fragment in the fabric of what had already been received . . . Descriptions note that Muhammad asked the scribe to reread to him what had been dictated so that he could correct any deficiencies . . . Another famous story tells how every year in the month of Ramadan, the Prophet would recite the whole of the Quran (so far revealed) to Gabriel . . ., that in the Ramadan preceding Muhammad's death, Gabriel had made him recite it twice . . . It is known how since the Prophet's time, Muslims acquired the habit of keeping vigil during Ramadan, and of reciting the whole of the Quran in addition to the usual prayers expected of them. Several sources add that Muhammad's scribe Zaid was present at this final bringing-together of the texts. Elsewhere, numerous other personalities are mentioned as well."
Extremely diverse materials were used for this first record: parchment, leather, wooden tablets, camels' scapula, soft stone for inscriptions, etc.
At the same time however, Muhammad recommended that the faithful learn the Quran by heart. They did this for a part if not all of the text recited during prayers. Thus there were Hafizun who knew the whole of the Quran by heart and spread it abroad. The method of doubly preserving the text both in writing and by memorization proved to be extremely precious.
Not long after the Prophet's death (632), his successor Abu Bakr, the first Caliph of Islam, asked Muhammad's former head scribe, Zaid Ibn Thâbit, to make a copy. this he did. On Omar's initiative (the future second Caliph), Zaid consulted all the information he could assemble at Madina: the witness of the Hafizun, copies of the Book written on various materials belonging to private individuals, all with the object of avoiding possible errors in transcription. Thus an extremely faithful copy of the Book was obtained.
The sources tell us that Caliph Omar, Abu Bakr's successor in 634, subsequently made a single volume (mushaf) that he preserved and gave on his death to his daughter Hafsa, the Prophet's widow.
The third Caliph of Islam, Uthman, who held the caliphate from 644 to 655, entrusted a commission of experts with the preparation of the great recension that bears his name. It checked the authenticity of the document produced under Abu Bakr which had remained in Hafsa's possession until that time. The commission consulted Muslims who knew the text by heart. The critical analysis of the authenticity of the text was carried out very rigorously. The agreement of the witnesses was deemed necessary before the slightest verse containing debatable material was retained. It is indeed known how some verses of the Quran correct others in the case of prescriptions: this may be readily explained when one remembers that the Prophet's period of apostolic activity stretched over twenty years (in round figures). The result is a text containing an order of suras that reflects the order followed by the Prophet in his complete recital of the Quran during Ramadan, as mentioned above.
One might perhaps ponder the motives that led the first three Caliphs, especially Uthman, to commission collections and recensions of the text. The reasons are in fact very simple: Islam's expansion in the very first decades following Muhammad's death was very rapid indeed and it happened among peoples whose native language was not Arabic. It was absolutely necessary to ensure the spread of a text that retained its original purity. Uthman's recension had this as its objective.
Uthman sent copies of the text of the recension to the centres of the Islamic Empire and that is why, according to Professor Hamidullah, copies attributed to Uthman exist in Tashkent and Istanbul. Apart from one or two possible mistakes in copying, the oldest documents known to the present day, that are to be found throughout the Islamic world, are identical; the same is true for documents preserved in Europe (there are fragments in the Bibliothèque Nationale in Paris which, according to the experts, date from the Eighth and Ninth centuries A.D., i.e. the Second and Third Hijiri centuries). The numerous ancient texts that are known to be in existence all agree except for very minor variations which do not change the general meaning of the text at all. If the context sometimes allows more than one interpretation, it may well have to do with the fact that ancient writing was simpler than that of the present day. [ The absence of diacritical marks, for example, could make a verb either active or passive and in some instances, masculine or feminine. More often than not however, this was hardly of any great consequence since the context indicated the meaning in many instances.]
The 114 suras were arranged in decreasing order of length; there were nevertheless exceptions. The chronological sequence of the Revelation was not followed. In the majority of cases however, this sequence is known. A large number of descriptions are mentioned at several points in the text, sometimes giving rise to repetitions. Very frequently a passage will add details to a description that appears elsewhere in an incomplete form. Everything connected with modern science is, like many subjects dealt with in the Quran, scattered throughout the book without any semblance of classification.
:obama3:
You can't be serious with these comments.
Christianity led the way in the civilization of the west which led it to spreading across the world. (Check the flags of
former super power England...It has a cross in it)
Also check the British flag. The cross is right and center
If Islam led the way to modern civilization why is most Islamic countries sh!tholes?
Islam stifles innovation, you cannot be a productive member of society when you have to bow down 5 times a day to a fraudulent being.
Every country which has Islam as a dominate force will never see any scientific and technological advancements because all innovations will be stifled.
You refuse to look at the mountain of evidence which shows Islam is destructive force not a productive one in the modern world.
Not really.
At its height the Muslim world was the most advanced.
The closest challenge in terms of technology and science was southern sung dynasty china,
but what is intriguing is that in the 12th century when the sung were at the top of the world in science and technology,
thy had a policy of encouraging immigration from the Muslim world, and employing Muslims.
by the start of the ming dynasty Muslims practically dominated all the technical fields of the government,
the first ming emperors armourer in charge of the production of canonns and muskets was muslim(a khawarizmi refugee actually), his 2 top generals and closest friends were muslims, the head of the imperial observatory was muslim as well as most of his staff.
Europe was a backwater while the Middle East and Africa had wealth and in those areas there was development of the sciences and technology. The Muslims were actually very innovative and if you study Muslim history and the golden age, you would know that.
The reason why most Muslim countries today suck is because the Muslims have become mentally weak and left the core principles of the religion i.e. we Muslims need to go back to who we are and follow our Qur'an instead of rushing trying to be like the non Muslims i.e. our colonial masters and failing with their systems for econ and politics.
Shaia is the natural law, God's manual provided for his manufactured product us.
We should ofcourse live by the manual becuase it is from the creator.
now the problem is how do we interpret this law into the various cultures and environments of the muslim lands?
People in the past did not struggle with this problem, we do because we have been all westernized and confused, even today's extremist religious scholars are unwittingly westernized.
People in the past did not find a conflict between secular and religious , the west did and they dealt with the problems of Christianity and modernity by rejecting religion and limiting the power of the church.
Once they did that they progressed.
They then conquered our lands and then our minds and exported their reasoning and thinking to us.
when alkhawarizmi was studying the science of maths, he was also a haafiz of Qur'an like all muslims scholars and men of science and he also studied hadiith and tafsiir.. The concept of secular knowledge and religious knowledge did not exist in islam it is a totally alien product.
It is useless to argue with the ignorant my brothers, let then believe what they wish, and we believe what is the truth.
Demon
Evil b*stard
Muslims are savages and their prophet is a disgusting pedophile
This is a flawed argument. Clearly that hasn't translated into the 21st century.
Most Muslim countries are hell on earth.
It is impossible for Islam to co-exist with science and technology when you have elements like Sharia law.
it is not surprising that Christian and secular societies are the most advanced in society when it comes to science and technology.
We have these threads almost every other week and most of the time I find it ironic that the Atheists always seem to be attracted to hating Islam more than any of the religions...yet know very little of it. Sounds like the Atheists are Republicans.
What I think is odd is that what Atheism brought to the world was Communism. Sadly Americans Atheists hates Communism not because it killed over 200 Million People but it was taken away their rights for making money off the mass killings. Capitalism helps that.
What I think is odd is that what Atheism brought to the world was Communism. Sadly Americans Atheists hates Communism not because it killed over 200 Million People but it was taken away their rights for making money off the mass killings. Capitalism helps that.
nikka, go read a book about history.
Muslims were practicing sharia and developing new inventions. Its proven.
nikka, go read a book about history.
Muslims were practicing sharia and developing new inventions. Its proven.
What was the end result of those "inventions"?. :obama3:
The powerful military and technological advancements can only be found in the west for one reason only.....Here it is..
The West is not Muslim!!!!
There will never be an Islamic super power like the Romans(Catholics), English(Anglicans) or Americans(Evangelicals) because the religion stifles innovation which can make a country a dominate force.
You can ignore the mountain of evidence and rely on your history of Islamic technological advancement which has not manifested somehow in the 21st century.
I'm sure you will find ways to blame the West. But just like most Muslims who blame the West, they would also like to live in the West :obama3:
I will repeat.
ISLAM and TECHNOLOGICAL ADVANCEMENT CANNOT CO-EXIST.
What was the end result of those "inventions"?. :obama3:
The powerful military and technological advancements can only be found in the west for one reason only.....Here it is..
The West is not Muslim!!!!
There will never be an Islamic super power like the Romans(Catholics), English(Anglicans) or Americans(Evangelicals) because the religion stiles innovation which can make a country a dominate force.
You can ignore the mountain of evidence and rely on your history of Islamic technological advancement which has not manifested somehow in the 21st century.
I'm sure you will find ways to blame the West. But just like most Muslims who blame the West, they would also like to live in the West :obama3:
I will repeat.
ISLAM and TECHNOLOGICAL ADVANCEMENT CANNOT CO-EXIST.
study history, the Muslim khulafas had issues with the Mongols in the East and then the reconquista of the Catholics when they massacred all of the non-Catholics in their takeover of Spain.Do you even know about Al-Andalus? You're just another ignorant nikka who doesn't even KNOW about this stuff.
A simple google search will net you results about the golden age, Al-Andalus, the advancements of math and science... all under the rule of Muslim folk who lived with other peoples.
The issue with US MUSLIMS TODAY IS THAT WE ARE NOT LIKE THOSE BEFORE US.
