Whips-n-Chains
Chi
You aint wrong breh... What do you think people wanted? I think they did a solid job (besides gravel pit, which ironically was a hit) of giving fans a year 2000 version of a grimy Wu release.
Was '99 the year when Wu Tang started to show cracks in the armor with jawns like Rae's Immobilarity, GZA's Beneath the Surface, Dirt's Ni$%a Please+
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Devil Plisken…CMS
Veteran
Musically it lacked energy & pace to me but ultimately like others have said nikkax just wanted to hear the hot crews of the time
The W was instrumentally amazing w/ how RZA themed the album off percussion. The drawback was the crew took a back step lyrically b/c they thought that was a criticism of Forever. So you have an album that's sonically stellar but half the crew isn't rhyming their ass off anymore.
False b/c the affiliates either shopped their own deals (Sunz- Red Ant/ KP- Geffen under GZA/ La independent) or were signed to Wu owned imprints (Cappa- Razor Sharp/Sony, Killarmy & the rest on Wu-Tang Records indy dist by Priority). Meanwhile Deck had an existing deal on Loud, which made sense as he was the second half of the biggest single CREAM, but it meant you couldn't negotiate as freely as you could on your own shyt. So, besides the flood delay, you owe an album to a label to get together, Deck was in his producer phase by then and wanted to showcase it & the rest of the Clan was doing their own thing to fulfill their own deals, so you don't end up with that fully collaborative Wu-Tang Clan solo you would have gotten a couple years before. That's not on RZA & Divine- that's on circumstance.
Would I have loved the crew to circle the wagons and get fully behind Deck's debut in the era showcasing one of their top tier members who sparked the whole movement by leading off PYN & closed out their biggest group single in CREAM? Of course. And everyone involved has admittingly regretted it didn't turn out that way, but I don't think any specific person is to blame for how the cards fell in the moment. Maybe except whoever failed at waterproofing RZA's basement.
Awesome Wells
The Ghost of Jack Tripper
I don’t even know, man.
But I think sticking together and having the same vision would've helped. RZA said by the time they started doing the solos, everybody started basically making their own plans and it wasn't like how they were when they first started. That's a lot of dudes and they weren't all in the same position, career-wise. So I know it was hard for him to manage all of them and keep them on the same page.
Wu was just way too divided to last long. Seems they still are.
I love Latina women
Veteran
Facts
Hell its hard enough for duos to stick together let alone groups and that’s for a variety of reasons
Creative differences
Money
Ego
Jealousy
Etc etc
Wu was kinda old news by then
They could still sell a million copies off their name and rep but wasn't equipped to compete commercially far as radio and video presence in a marketplace dominated by Eminem, Outkast, Nelly and Ja Rule.
Still think it was a dope back to basics, last stand type album for them that hold up well. Iron Flag was a major step down, ain't been a fan of any of their group albums since.
Awesome Wells
The Ghost of Jack Tripper
Exactly!
RZA told Questlove that after awhile he just couldn't manage all of the egos, lol. They were only like a year into their career, and they were on video fighting over who got more time on stage and on camera and sh*t. That whole situation just seemed like it was always divided and headed for disaster.
I love Latina women
Veteran
Yup
And if we’re being honest
It’s a miracle they stayed together from 93 to 97
RZA had a lot of responsibilities on his hands
Majestyx
Duck Season
forever is GOAT'dpeople wanting wack jiggy shyt is really the culprit.
the only albums dropped to me that were disappointments were immobiliarity, and tical 2000.
there was no way beneath the surface was going to be better than liquid swords, but its very good, and has one of darkman's best verses.
I'm dapping people left and right in here on both of the Forever sides.
My opinion now - it's an excellent album that marks a significant point in time for the Clan and Hip Hop in general. There is no album like it, and the fact that these dudes with Rza at the helm made the albums they made from early 90's until this will forever (no pun intended) GOAT them for me.
At the time - I was 10 years old and had no idea what most of it was about, even though I funked with it. 36 Chambers (and the subsequent solo albums and Gravediggaz) blew my mind as a kid so I remember rushing home knowing my brother would have this album. As soon as we turned it on we were hit with that intro like
So I get both sides.
I think 36 Chambers is an all time classic in any genre of music, and stands up there with shyt like Thriller and Illmatic for what it did musically.
I think Forever is a HipHop classic.
36 Chambers is on another level.
It's like Illmatic vs It's Was Written, Chronic vs 2001 etc.
My opinion now - it's an excellent album that marks a significant point in time for the Clan and Hip Hop in general. There is no album like it, and the fact that these dudes with Rza at the helm made the albums they made from early 90's until this will forever (no pun intended) GOAT them for me.
At the time - I was 10 years old and had no idea what most of it was about, even though I funked with it. 36 Chambers (and the subsequent solo albums and Gravediggaz) blew my mind as a kid so I remember rushing home knowing my brother would have this album. As soon as we turned it on we were hit with that intro like
So I get both sides.
I think 36 Chambers is an all time classic in any genre of music, and stands up there with shyt like Thriller and Illmatic for what it did musically.
I think Forever is a HipHop classic.
36 Chambers is on another level.
It's like Illmatic vs It's Was Written, Chronic vs 2001 etc.
For the premise of the thread, other than production etc it was the lack of unity that hurt the newer albums.
Low key all the mid-90 albums are just group albums but one or two mc's take center stage. Once most of them had to feature their own clicks rather than the Clan and look for non-Rza producers...they kind of got exposed.
That's what made Ghost stand out.
The solo albums that recaptured that Wu magic all had Rza executive producing and major Clan presence (Supreme Clientele, No Said Date, Cuban Linx II).
Low key all the mid-90 albums are just group albums but one or two mc's take center stage. Once most of them had to feature their own clicks rather than the Clan and look for non-Rza producers...they kind of got exposed.
That's what made Ghost stand out.
The solo albums that recaptured that Wu magic all had Rza executive producing and major Clan presence (Supreme Clientele, No Said Date, Cuban Linx II).
bigillwill06
All Star
immobilarity is a lyrical classic
This is true, to this day. It's why I will always die on the Forever hill. It was them flexing the skills they developed after all the years invested in the craft. The sustained display of lyricism and rap skill. Everyone killed it but Deck, Rae and Ghost specifically put on a masterclass in emceeing throughout.
The conversations about the production are so subjective it's kind of pointless to argue. You can't talk someone into or out of liking a beat or overall approach. The album sound like it was recorded in state of the art studios, not RZA's basement, intentionally. The whole goal was to be more epic, cinematic, polished, instead of trying to recapture the rawness of the debut. To me, I always appreciated it was something unique in the catalog, trying to recapture the rawness and energy of 36 wouldn't have worked.
Bugzbunny129
All Star
*steps into phone boothBruh, anything Wu related your bias as hell about because your a huge fan of theirs
I’ve seen you say call a lot of their weak and wack albums good
You the type of nikka that would say U God’s albums are classics
You pay attention and remember who i am and what i say because i speaks FACTS from the lord and ya brain is telling you “LISTEN TO HIM” but you fight god at every turn. Thats why all you got to retort is “i follow your posts like a stan”. Go “follow” men on twitter.
The best of the best wu of 98/99 > any rap crews output at same time. Ill go track for track with anyone.
Maybe its after 7 albums, the shine wore off and you got used to it. Because even when it dropped, people called disk 1 a classic off rip. Its disk 2 that people always have a problem with.
But yall judging wu forever based on traditional commercial RAP BULLshyt. When its really a CULTURAL MILESTONE FOR THE ENTIRE GENRE. Ok so it has like 5-6 songs that get redundant after 1.5 hours of onslaught. Ya talking about an album with highs like reunited, troumph, abt, its yours, for heavens sake, impossible etc. you wont find highs like that on 85% rap albums. Did it lack some energy and need some hooks to carry disk 2 yea… for a pop album… which we established its not.
WORLD WIDE #1 album. Not amerixan #1. Wu was big across the globe. Went number 1 in dozens of countries who dont wven soeak english. And yall conparing it to 36 and the traditional rap community and rap albums based on that limited matrix. The album is bigger than reg rap music. This was going into public enemy territory. It transcended CULTURE. And people judge it cause it dont have bops for bytches.
it literally went against every rule in music making. It was a serious album with serious topics; deeper lyrically, spiritually, whatever the fukk ally over 36. 36 is nursery rhymes conpared. 36 was a lifes work vs the book end of a defining era. It was NEVER gonna be like the OG and its some of yall who will never get over that fact even if it hits ya in the face with every artist that ever existed. You expected too much. I was content in what i got. Both nas and wu pulled 180s. Look who from their era still here… nas and wu.
Yall all talking about hype and what people was saying on the block when it reached the GLOBE. an against the grain album meant to solidify the fanbase. It made lifetime fans and made the casuals bounce. Yet while wu was selling less and less, they eere still getting deals because it STAMPED them in a way few rappers been stamped before. Ghost and meth were on majors 10 years after forever dropping big projects. All while “wu fell off”.
That is why wus still around. I knew that at TEN YEARS OLD theyd be the only rappers of the era still going in 20 years based on the art of the albums. Wu shyt transcended popular music. People were tatting themselves with it. Its a cultural thing. Its biblical. Their albums were tooo strong and meant too much ti people compared to other 3 mic typical rap shyt that comes and go and has NO staying power. Yall stan flavor of the motnhs regularly here. Wu is something worth stanning. Every year they existed you can squeeze out a 60 min GEM
Brilliant move by rza in reality. He can be swayed by people 30 years after the fact. But the final tour isnt about 36. Its FOREVER.
“They wont figure it out til the year 2g” = rza already knew all this. Proving my point. What you think he thought the popa wu intro was gon get people to dance? He refused to make the cure be ause he knew he had to live it and was super serious about all of this. he used wu to drop an album about 5% talk in maknstream and risked his career and guys wanna talk about hooks and singles.
And while i do look for good in wu shyt vs bad, i do it because yall shyt on any wu album less than 4.5 mics. you cant name 3 artists with better catalog so ya goddamn right i will defend wu from these weak agendas. Thats why ugod and cap can show up to big shows and promote whatever they want in 2025 while other 90s acts who were plat gotta beg to get on.
People wanna listen to rap music and crash out. Not get a goddamn lesson. It was NEVER gon translate on a POP level, the fact it did in some way is amazing.
But yall went to summer school and i did not. Find somwthing to complaon about. Its cool. i ate my vegatables. But ill POPEYE JAMMY anyone bemsirching wu forever over the dumb bs yall do.
It went as well as it could have. To make high end hip hop AND be popular AND be the draw of draws/original/trendsetting/etc. it was never gonna last FOREVER….
Do i see tical shyttalk now? Maybe i should bring out my “TICAL > ILLMATIC” in real time” thread.
*puts wu cape on
*flys away
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