Update: Knowing that free will is just an illusion, how to continue living?

[MischievousMonkey]

I can guarantee you that they all had a safety net or someone helping them out. That's just reality. They certainly aren't rejecting the help or safety net though.

That is because you make a direct link of implication between not believing in free will and not giving a fukk about life and consequences.

 

[mortuus est]

If a computer is only programmed to do a b and c it'll never do d. Until you program it to do so.

oh im guessing you've never watched iRobot and the terminator

 

[Pazzy]

That is because you make a direct link of implication between not believing in free will and not giving a fukk about life and consequences.

I think you're confused. They actually give a fukk believe it or not and they also have someone else around that does too. They don't give a fukk in a sense where they know they can fall and take risks and have someone pick them up. It might be different if they didn't have that net or person around them.

 

[Wildin]

I agree

I think you also perfectly described what a man is. A very, very complex computer, with an incredibly high number of inputs that are perceived both consciously and unconsciously, prompting an incredibly high number of reactions and effects combining themselves to lead to a result we call "choice".

The safe driver you described had inputs that led him to hit the brakes, slow down or go faster. These inputs go from his education (stocked in his memory), his feelings, his personality, etc to the visual and auditory cues he perceives, and there are plenty others. All of them combine instantly in his brain through his to produce what we call a "choice". The rationalization you mention is the analytical part of his brain (exactly similar), located in the pre-cortex I believed, going through some of these cues and ending up providing a diagnostic he will then follow or not, because like I said, plenty other inputs are to be taken into account.

Same reasoning can be applied to the firefighters and me seeing a person go off the road.

Experiences are an input. Genes, the way your brain is built, are other inputs.
Geneticists often refer to the genetic code as a program.
Cerebral plasticity shows how your brain constantly evolves and adapt to experiences, just like a sophisticated AI does.



You said it yourself: no choice happens for no reason. If that's the case and these reasons are outside of your sphere of influence, then free will just can't exist.

Computers can't adapt on there own, like our brains. Computers have limited numbers of inputs. windows 98 can only do so much before it's obsolete.

I don't believe that our brain is limited. We've know 100% of the brain but we've only discovered what, 10% of our brain is useful for. What we don't know is all the interconnectivity therein lies the biggest part.

I don't think we have telepathy or the ability to move objects or anything. But things like fixing depression or curing alheimers, parkinsons, multiple sclerosis. We can see how these diseases and disorders effect the brain but they aren't curable, you can treat the symptoms.

As far as the brain, minus any disabilities one can learn to read or do math. I don't think there's a point where your brain has reached its capacity like "welp this is all the math your going to be able to learn"

While there are some good computers out there they all have there limits, such as

this calculator and this one

They are both calculators but they have different limits in how they can perform.

Although math has been around longer than both of these devices at one point the former was acceptable or adequate. Much like Windows 3.1 was great when it came out but compared to Windows 10 or whatever it's obsolete .

Windows 3.1 can't adapt to today's standards. The brain can, and we as far as our thoughts feelings and actions can change how we interact.

Windows 3.1 probably can't open pdf's definitely can't install iTunes or something.

A persons brain could have been developed in 1310 and if somehow preserved and utilized in 2018 still be able to adapt.

 

[MischievousMonkey]

Computers can't adapt on there own, like our brains. Computers have limited numbers of inputs. windows 98 can only do so much before it's obsolete.

I don't believe that our brain is limited. We've know 100% of the brain but we've only discovered what, 10% of our brain is useful for. What we don't know is all the interconnectivity therein lies the biggest part.

I don't think we have telepathy or the ability to move objects or anything. But things like fixing depression or curing alheimers, parkinsons, multiple sclerosis. We can see how these diseases and disorders effect the brain but they aren't curable, you can treat the symptoms.

As far as the brain, minus any disabilities one can learn to read or do math. I don't think there's a point where your brain has reached its capacity like "welp this is all the math your going to be able to learn"

While there are some good computers out there they all have there limits, such as

this calculator and this one

They are both calculators but they have different limits in how they can perform.

Although math has been around longer than both of these devices at one point the former was acceptable or adequate. Much like Windows 3.1 was great when it came out but compared to Windows 10 or whatever it's obsolete .

Windows 3.1 can't adapt to today's standards. The brain can, and we as far as our thoughts feelings and actions can change how we interact.

Windows 3.1 probably can't open pdf's definitely can't install iTunes or something.

A persons brain could have been developed in 1310 and if somehow preserved and utilized in 2018 still be able to adapt.

You're talking about old and modern computers while I'm saying we are just more advanced computers. Old and modern computers can't do what we do as of now, but that's not what I'm arguing. What I'm saying is that we function in the exact same way when it comes to inputs and programs. The limitations you described don't negate that.

By the way, people working right now on quantum computing are building computers that will have power unfathomable before.



And computers can very much so adapt if they've been programmed to do so. But your brain and its abilities have been programmed too, literally programmed, by your genetic code. DNA contains the full list of commands and programs that make up your brain's functions.



Your brain adapts "on its own" because it was programmed to do so, just like a computer.

 

[MischievousMonkey]

I think you're confused. They actually give a fukk believe it or not and they also have someone else around that does too. They don't give a fukk in a sense where they know they can fall and take risks and have someone pick them up. It might be different if they didn't have that net or person around them.

shyt I must be. I don't know the people you're talking about but saying all determinists in the world and in history needs safety nets if they don't want to be failures, based on your experience with these people, is quite the Piccolo reach in my humble opinion lmao. I don't believe a "school of thought" dooms you to this or that.

 

[HabitualChiller]

Reading this thread let me know that I'm not the most knowledgeable person on here.

You nikkas going so in-depth on a concept that I never even considered.

Only thing I can get deep on are people, literature and grammar.

 

[Wildin]

You're talking about old and modern computers while I'm saying we are just more advanced computers. Old and modern computers can't do what we do as of now, but that's not what I'm arguing. What I'm saying is that we function in the exact same way when it comes to inputs and programs. The limitations you described don't negate that.


And computers can very much so adapt if they've been programmed to do so. But your brain and its abilities have been programmed too, literally programmed, by your genetic code. DNA contains the full list of commands and programs that make up your brain's functions.

Your brain adapts "on its own" because it was programmed to do so, just like a computer.

Once a computer is programmed, that version of it is done. It has a limited number of inputs it can accept or commands it can execute. Like Microsoft 3.1 can't run iOS jaguar or one of its operating systems. It cannot load files designed for Windows 10.

You say computers can adapt if they've been programmed to do so. Well our computers adapt, we update our phones and our pcs download updates , we install new software. You can completely change your operating system if you want to.

You can't change your genetic code, you can't change your DNA.

Technology becomes obsolete and newer versions come out, it doesn't adapt. The people being born today are the same genetically and DNA is the same as in the 1300's, modern medicine and better food sources have made it so we can live larger, longer, and throughout more injuries, illnesses and such but we are the same humans/people.

You wouldn't argue that a tube television is the same as a HD flat panel. A cell phone isn't the same as a traditional telephone which isn't the same as a Telegraph. They are all phones and TVs and have been with us for generations.

Humans are the same. People are still making babies the same ways, and in new ways but with the same components (sperm and egg).

We adapt and in real time. You move to Colorado in higher altitude your body will adapt, you could move to a hotter or colder climate, your body will adapt. It may take years, there's times when your body won't adapt, move to chernobyl. There were people exposed to radiation during Hiroshima that lived, grew up and had kids later that came out messed up.

Human life is malleable. Don't get me wrong animals are resilient even plants, bacteria and other organisms, but human life tops it all.

 

[MischievousMonkey]

Once a computer is programmed, that version of it is done. It has a limited number of inputs it can accept or commands it can execute. Like Microsoft 3.1 can't run iOS jaguar or one of its operating systems. It cannot load files designed for Windows 10.

You say computers can adapt if they've been programmed to do so. Well our computers adapt, we update our phones and our pcs download updates , we install new software. You can completely change your operating system if you want to.

You can't change your genetic code, you can't change your DNA.

Technology becomes obsolete and newer versions come out, it doesn't adapt. The people being born today are the same genetically and DNA is the same as in the 1300's, modern medicine and better food sources have made it so we can live larger, longer, and throughout more injuries, illnesses and such but we are the same humans/people.

You wouldn't argue that a tube television is the same as a HD flat panel. A cell phone isn't the same as a traditional telephone which isn't the same as a Telegraph. They are all phones and TVs and have been with us for generations.

Humans are the same. People are still making babies the same ways, and in new ways but with the same components (sperm and egg).

We adapt and in real time. You move to Colorado in higher altitude your body will adapt, you could move to a hotter or colder climate, your body will adapt. It may take years, there's times when your body won't adapt, move to chernobyl. There were people exposed to radiation during Hiroshima that lived, grew up and had kids later that came out messed up.

Human life is malleable. Don't get me wrong animals are resilient even plants, bacteria and other organisms, but human life tops it all.

In fact, you can indeed change your genetic code, or should I say how it expresses. Epigenetics show just that.

Human DNA today isn't the same as it was in the 1300s. The chemicals used stay the same, but evolution clearly shows that new sequences pop up all the time.

When I'm talking about adaptation of computers and AI, I was definitely not talking about a newer model coming out, or a new update or software, etc. No, I'm saying that computers can be programmed to learn and adapt, just like AI.

Your phone can learn and adapt on basic levels. That's partly how the autocorrect function works. It adapts to the words you use.

Here's a basic AI you can talk to:

https://www.cleverbot.com

Its name is cleverbot. It's not that clever to be honest, but it tries its best. It collects information obtained through conversations with users, stock them, and use them as an input to refine its responses in future discussions.

The brain works in the exact same way. It just has considerably more inputs to deal with and more power to process them. Human life is malleable because it's programmed to be.

 

[MischievousMonkey]

Reading this thread let me know that I'm not the most knowledgeable person on here.

You nikkas going so in-depth on a concept that I never even considered.

Only thing I can get deep on are people, literature and grammar.

I bet you know way more shyt than me on other topics That's why it's interesting to combine our knowledge via discussing and debating like that

 

[MischievousMonkey]

Next step: after having established that free will is merely an illusion, what is there to do with that information? How to live with that?

This will be the object of my next post in this thread where I'll talk about notions of fatality, hope, identity and the universe

 

[MischievousMonkey]

I briefly touched on the subject in other threads, but to reconcile this bogus vision of free will we have with our behaviors, you have to recognize and admit that humans are just another expression of the universe, a particularly complex one yes, but one of the numerous ramifications of existence still, as are plants, rocks and dark matter.

The problem of free will comes from the fact that being self reflective beings, we naturally build up identities, the "me", the "I". The notion of individuality born from this recognition of the self is a concept dear to the conscious being because like Descartes said, it's the only certainty it can have. This assessment has for implication the separation of self from the rest of the universe; ""I" am my own independent unit". I highlighted in this thread how wrong it was objectively and hinted at the fact that you cannot, still from an objective standpoint, take the person out the causes and effects ruling his actions.

(1/2)

 

[Van Cleef]

Thanks for answering my questions. I agree on everything you said for the most part, on a surface level.

What I usually do in my life, because I like to dig deeper, is ask the question "why?". To everything.
Why does such thing happen? Why does an event occur this way? etc.

There's a thing the question "why?" "hates". Randomness. Why did the coin that I tossed end up on this side and not the other? Randomness: "because. Could have happened the other way around. The result just popped out of nowhere".

The thing is, logic and understanding show us that randomness actually doesn't exist in reality. If that coin ended up on this particular side, this is because you tossed it with this particular force, causing this particular friction with the air also due to this particular temperature, without forgetting to consider the wind... There are no randomness in reality but causes and effects, right? That means we can always ask the question "why" to go back up the chain of causes and effects.

Why do the coin...? Force, wind... Why do the wind...? Differences in temperature from a region to another. Why temperature...? Sun rays reflecting on different surfaces. Why...?

Etc etc etc.

Everything happening in the universe is an effect and has a cause, whether we know this cause or not.

Now, if we agree on all this, and consider the case of the human, who is an element of this reality...

Each decision. Each action made by a person has one or several causes, because there is no randomness like you said. But what happens if I try to go back up this chain of causes and effects???

Well what happens is that I soon or later end up quitting the sphere of human consciousness, even the sphere of mankind, to find out that the causes that are responsible for the actions we undertake are out of our control.

You "chose"/"decide" to save a person in danger. Why? Because you are brave. Why? Because you've been raised that way and saw examples of people helping others when needed during your childhood. And you have no control over these events, these causes and effects, that made you brave and made you take this decision. You were made and molded by life to take this decision. Thus the reason why we cannot talk of free will, because the reasons you did that are all outside of your control. You don't have control.

The many choices and options are an illusion, because like you said, you always choose something for a reason. And if I look up the reason of that reason, and then the reason of that reason, etc... I'll end up concluding that the primary reasons were outside of your reach.

You can think of 10 different ways of scratching your ear. You'll do that because you're imaginative and because you want to prove to that poster that free will exists. You're imaginative and wanted because... You know the rest. All I have to do is go back up the chain of reasons.

You'll choose one manner of scratching your ear rather than another for a reason. If I go back up the chain, I'll know exactly why and it will be because of something you had no control over at the end of this day.

For free will to exist you have to have randomness. It cannot work without it. Because without randomness, everything is causes and effects. Down to the actions men commit.

i like fatalism because it skips all the juelzing that determinists do...

every event that has occurred in the universe since its beginning, and will occur until its end, is connected in a chain of cause and effect. This chain is unchangeable, meaning that there is no room for free will or the ability to alter the course of events. basically, everything that has happened, and will happen, is predetermined and inevitable.

 

[MischievousMonkey]

i like fatalism because it skips all the juelzing that determinists do...

every event that has occurred in the universe since its beginning, and will occur until its end, is connected in a chain of cause and effect. This chain is unchangeable, meaning that there is no room for free will or the ability to alter the course of events. basically, everything that has happened, and will happen, is predetermined and inevitable.

Even though I still agree with the gist of it, I'm farther in my reflexion on this topic that I was almost 5 years ago. I was taking baby steps here without realizing yet that what I ought to do, considering that free will as commonly though of wasn't real, was to redefine what "individual", "action", "decision" and "choice" mean, and not only in a compatibilist way. I'm putting that and other stuff down on paper nowadays. Edit: ah, I see that I was already echoeing the beginning of that in my previous post.

Goddamn, it was 5 years ago. Please don't bump threads like that no more

 

[010101]

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