Update: Knowing that free will is just an illusion, how to continue living?

[MischievousMonkey]

Yes. Humans have choice free will. We can ignore stimuli, or choose how we want to react for the most part, and we can rationalize.

The things we don't aren't random. We have many choices and options to do what we do. Think about moving your right hand to scratch your right ear. A straight line by bending your elbow and slightly lifting your shoulder doesn't seem like it requires a lot of thought. If your ear actually itched and you scratched it by using that movement you wouldnt have broken it down into several options of how to get your hand to your ear. But if you sit in your chair you can think of 10 different movements to get your right hand to your right ear. We can think of and choose many options and choices in our life, we can literally define or redefine our experiences.

Cool! Last question I have fore answering it all is what's free will to you?

 

[Wildin]

Cool! Last question I have fore answering it all is what's free will to you?

I hate the term free will, for some reason it has a connotation with me of a higher power, maybe religion.

All it is, is a synonym for choices.

What we boil down to, after our genes and DNA is choices. The only thing we can really control are our thoughts, feelings and actions. We might not being able to control initial stimuli, such as what triggers a thought, a feeling or cause to to act, but we can control our reactions. That's what can get us anywhere in the world, that's what can move us up and down social ladders. That's is our greatest tool for survival.

 

[MischievousMonkey]

I hate the term free will, for some reason it has a connotation with me of a higher power, maybe religion.

All it is, is a synonym for choices.

What we boil down to, after our genes and DNA is choices. The only thing we can really control are our thoughts, feelings and actions. We might not being able to control initial stimuli, such as what triggers a thought, a feeling or cause to to act, but we can control our reactions. That's what can get us anywhere in the world, that's what can move us up and down social ladders. That's is our greatest tool for survival.

Thanks for answering my questions. I agree on everything you said for the most part, on a surface level.

What I usually do in my life, because I like to dig deeper, is ask the question "why?". To everything.
Why does such thing happen? Why does an event occur this way? etc.

There's a thing the question "why?" "hates". Randomness. Why did the coin that I tossed end up on this side and not the other? Randomness: "because. Could have happened the other way around. The result just popped out of nowhere".

The thing is, logic and understanding show us that randomness actually doesn't exist in reality. If that coin ended up on this particular side, this is because you tossed it with this particular force, causing this particular friction with the air also due to this particular temperature, without forgetting to consider the wind... There are no randomness in reality but causes and effects, right? That means we can always ask the question "why" to go back up the chain of causes and effects.

Why do the coin...? Force, wind... Why do the wind...? Differences in temperature from a region to another. Why temperature...? Sun rays reflecting on different surfaces. Why...?

Etc etc etc.

Everything happening in the universe is an effect and has a cause, whether we know this cause or not.

Now, if we agree on all this, and consider the case of the human, who is an element of this reality...

Each decision. Each action made by a person has one or several causes, because there is no randomness like you said. But what happens if I try to go back up this chain of causes and effects???

Well what happens is that I soon or later end up quitting the sphere of human consciousness, even the sphere of mankind, to find out that the causes that are responsible for the actions we undertake are out of our control.

You "chose"/"decide" to save a person in danger. Why? Because you are brave. Why? Because you've been raised that way and saw examples of people helping others when needed during your childhood. And you have no control over these events, these causes and effects, that made you brave and made you take this decision. You were made and molded by life to take this decision. Thus the reason why we cannot talk of free will, because the reasons you did that are all outside of your control. You don't have control.

The many choices and options are an illusion, because like you said, you always choose something for a reason. And if I look up the reason of that reason, and then the reason of that reason, etc... I'll end up concluding that the primary reasons were outside of your reach.

You can think of 10 different ways of scratching your ear. You'll do that because you're imaginative and because you want to prove to that poster that free will exists. You're imaginative and wanted because... You know the rest. All I have to do is go back up the chain of reasons.

You'll choose one manner of scratching your ear rather than another for a reason. If I go back up the chain, I'll know exactly why and it will be because of something you had no control over at the end of this day.

For free will to exist you have to have randomness. It cannot work without it. Because without randomness, everything is causes and effects. Down to the actions men commit.

 

[Hellmont]

No shyt?

 

[Roid Jones]

Choice doesn't exist. So if your best friend slams ass with your girl, you're not gonna be mad at him?

"Choices don't exist. I had to do it, breh."

I forgive you it's your genes fault

 

[Pazzy]

Responsibility does exist. Choices do exist. You can't control everything but for the things you can control, that's where those two come in. Its nothing more to it. If you live your life on some "fukk it" shyt, then you really can't complain where you wind up because you've made a choice that you'll accept whatever comes from the choice you've made from not giving a fukk. It's real out here.

Choosing to not believe in responsibility and choices exist is a choice, btw. Plenty of people think like that and you often see them in jail, broke or always in trouble looking for someone to save them. That is no way to live life. I've seen more than enough people with that mentality and it NEVER works. I've never seen any successful people with that line of thinking. I've seen plenty of failures though.

 

[Wildin]

There's a thing the question "why?" "hates". Randomness. Why did the coin that I tossed end up on this side and not the other? Randomness: "because. Could have happened the other way around. The result just popped out of nowhere".


Everything happening in the universe is an effect and has a cause, whether we know this cause or not.

Well what happens is that I soon or later end up quitting the sphere of human consciousness, even the sphere of mankind, to find out that the causes that are responsible for the actions we undertake are out of our control.

You "chose"/"decide" to save a person in danger. Why? Because you are brave. Why? Because you've been raised that way and saw examples of people helping others when needed during your childhood. And you have no control over these events, these causes and effects, that made you brave and made you take this decision. You were made and molded by life to take this decision. Thus the reason why we cannot talk of free will, because the reasons you did that are all outside of your control. You don't have control.

For free will to exist you have to have randomness. It cannot work without it. Because without randomness, is causes and effects. Down to the actions men commit.

What you're referring to is locus of control.

Like I said the only thing we can control is our thoughts feelings actions (and reactions).

You have no control over a coin toss because you have no control over gravity.

You can influence it by throwing it or dropping it a certain way but you can't control it.

It's like being a safe driver. You can control how you drive which diminishes the likelihood of you being in an accident or specifically causing one, however you can't control other drivers. You can influence them for instance by putting on your turn signal or knowing your brake lights work therefore when you brake they see your lights and know to slow down or stop. You can't make them push the pedal or turn the wheel.

Which way the wind blows and the sun coming up, rain falling, drink driver coming around the corner at 60mph that's all out of your control.

As far as helping or saving someone that a decision, generally in the heat of the moment and sometimes not thought through but its all choices.

Firemen going into a building they take time and make a plan, they rationalize and make the best decision, try practice various scenarios but there are still unknowns and things out of their control.

If you saw a car go off the road and decided to help, you'll rationalize and come to some decision whether it's to call 911, try to pull them out, grab a fire extinguisher or keep on driving.

Being brave is one of those societal based judgments.

For instance the parkland cop that hid outside, he saved his life,but he didn't sacrifice his in the chances he might not make it, people say he wasn't brave, people die in these mass shootings covering others and they say they are brave, meanwhile some people run and hide and call 911 (which is important). We as a society although not collectively pick and choose who's brave and who's not.

 

[mortuus est]

i believe some people have demons controlling them to do certain things ,

like the brehs in the no fap threads that keep relapsing on the 3rd day, they have a hormone monster controlling them

 

[MischievousMonkey]

What you're referring to is locus of control.

Like I said the only thing we can control is our thoughts feelings actions (and reactions).

You have no control over a coin toss because you have no control over gravity.

You can influence it by throwing it or dropping it a certain way but you can't control it.

It's like being a safe driver. You can control how you drive which diminishes the likelihood of you being in an accident or specifically causing one, however you can't control other drivers. You can influence them for instance by putting on your turn signal or knowing your brake lights work therefore when you brake they see your lights and know to slow down or stop. You can't make them push the pedal or turn the wheel.

Which way the wind blows and the sun coming up, rain falling, drink driver coming around the corner at 60mph that's all out of your control.

As far as helping or saving someone that a decision, generally in the heat of the moment and sometimes not thought through but its all choices.

Firemen going into a building they take time and make a plan, they rationalize and make the best decision, try practice various scenarios but there are still unknowns and things out of their control.

If you saw a car go off the road and decided to help, you'll rationalize and come to some decision whether it's to call 911, try to pull them out, grab a fire extinguisher or keep on driving.

Being brave is one of those societal based judgments.

For instance the parkland cop that hid outside, he saved his life,but he didn't sacrifice his in the chances he might not make it, people say he wasn't brave, people die in these mass shootings covering others and they say they are brave, meanwhile some people run and hide and call 911 (which is important). We as a society although not collectively pick and choose who's brave and who's not.

I can go see someone to build a sophisticated computer in a way that it will do exactly all you said in that post, about driving, firemen and seeing a car go off the road.

Does the computer have free will to you?

 

[horizon]

you chose to make this thread, I chose to comment

don't out think the room

 

[MischievousMonkey]

Responsibility does exist. Choices do exist. You can't control everything but for the things you can control, that's where those two come in. Its nothing more to it. If you live your life on some "fukk it" shyt, then you really can't complain where you wind up because you've made a choice that you'll accept whatever comes from the choice you've made from not giving a fukk. It's real out here.

Choosing to not believe in responsibility and choices exist is a choice, btw. Plenty of people think like that and you often see them in jail, broke or always in trouble looking for someone to save them. That is no way to live life. I've seen more than enough people with that mentality and it NEVER works. I've never seen any successful people with that line of thinking. I've seen plenty of failures though.

I didn't want to talk about that yet.

I didn't say anywhere that it was a way to live life, because I don't believe it is. Once I l know I don't have free will, what do I do? The next step is not to act like whatever or fukk it.

I'll talk about it next.

And I guarantee plenty determinists have lived great lives and done great things

 

[MischievousMonkey]

i believe some people have demons controlling them to do certain things ,

like the brehs in the no fap threads that keep relapsing on the 3rd day, they have a hormone monster controlling them

Your post and smileys are scary as shyt

 

[Wildin]

I can go see someone to build a sophisticated computer in a way that it will do exactly all you said in that post, about driving, firemen and seeing a car go off the road.

Does the computer have free will to you?

Computers do not have free will.

Computer are programmed, they have a specific number of inputs that they do and can do.

If [a] occurs execute command

The way computers and artificial intelligence works is there are a multitude of commands and executions. These can always be reworked and reprogrammed. Theres no free will with electronics they don't do what they want. You put in an input such as clicking on the start menu or pushing a button on a remote. Programming can get jammed have flaws or be reworked/remapped like when the batteries in your remote get low and you push volume up but it changes the channel or your computer opens a bunch of pop ups or have a virus.

I had an old blackberry I could change the buttons on the side and make them open apps or change volume, I could program them to do what I want. There's nothing out there that's going to suddenly do something it's not designed for. Even for things that have the same frequencies like rf, Bluetooth, WiFi, that's just a coincidence.

If a computer is only programmed to do a b and c it'll never do d. Until you program it to do so.

 

[MischievousMonkey]

Computers do not have free will.

Computer are programmed, they have a specific number of inputs that they do and can do.

If [a] occurs execute command

The way computers and artificial intelligence works is there are a multitude of commands and executions. These can always be reworked and reprogrammed. Theres no free will with electronics they don't do what they want. You put in an input such as clicking on the start menu or pushing a button on a remote. Programming can get jammed or reworked/remapped like when the batteries in your remote get low and you push volume up but it changes the channel or your computer opens a bunch of pop ups or have a virus.

I agree

I think you also perfectly described what a man is. A very, very complex computer, with an incredibly high number of inputs that are perceived both consciously and unconsciously, prompting an incredibly high number of reactions and effects combining themselves to lead to a result we call "choice".

The safe driver you described had inputs that led him to hit the brakes, slow down or go faster. These inputs go from his education (stocked in his memory), his feelings, his personality, etc to the visual and auditory cues he perceives, and there are plenty others. All of them combine instantly in his brain through his to produce what we call a "choice". The rationalization you mention is the analytical part of his brain (exactly similar), located in the pre-cortex I believed, going through some of these cues and ending up providing a diagnostic he will then follow or not, because like I said, plenty other inputs are to be taken into account.

Same reasoning can be applied to the firefighters and me seeing a person go off the road.

Experiences are an input. Genes, the way your brain is built, are other inputs.
Geneticists often refer to the genetic code as a program.
Cerebral plasticity shows how your brain constantly evolves and adapt to experiences, just like a sophisticated AI does.



You said it yourself: no choice happens for no reason. If that's the case and these reasons are outside of your sphere of influence, then free will just can't exist.

 

[Pazzy]

I didn't want to talk about that yet.

I didn't say anywhere that it was a way to live life, because I don't believe it is. Once I l know I don't have free will, what do I do? The next step is not to act like whatever or fukk it.

I'll talk about it next.

And I guarantee plenty determinists have lived great lives and done great things

I can guarantee you that they all had a safety net or someone helping them out. That's just reality. They certainly aren't rejecting the help or safety net though.