Ya Sinning Mane
Superstar
i feel you OP.
coming back to this thread later.
ive been contemplating pre destination recently.
coming back to this thread later.
ive been contemplating pre destination recently.
Update: Knowing that free will is just an illusion, how to continue living?
- Thread starter MischievousMonkey
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BlackJesus
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If responsibility doesn't exist, why would it be practical?
Guilt is an emotion. It's not the same as liberty, responsibility and merit. Two completely unrelated things you are trying to compare.
Liberty, responsibility and merit are societal. A merit is something bestowed upon someone else as would a demerit. Responsibility is man made, some people feel it's imperative to pay bills, care for the elderly, woman and children. There's no right or wrong, these are choices.
People can feel guilty about eating meat. You'll never find a wolf that for one reason or another won't eat meat but only beans and grass.
Above all we have choices. You chose to make this thread. You weren't forced, there was nothing wired before you were born that you had no control over that led you to this day that made you sign in and create. It was your choice.
Your body will tell you when your hungry, you have a choice whether you want to eat and drink. If you choose not to, your body where deteriorate to the point where you physically won't be able to eat. You could still be alive but you will no longer have the choice.
Responsibility is completely man made. Cutting your grass is a responsibility. You could not cut it and let it grow or cut it it would be your choice and you would assume responsibility for it either way, or you could let someone else do it and hold them responsible and blame, but that's a whole nother topic similar to responsibility where it's a choice. You choose to accept or deny.
Birds routinely feed their babies by putting food into their mouths, cats lick themselves to clean and maintain their coat. If a bird didn't or wasn't feeding their baby or your cat wasn't cleaning itself, you wouldn't say "they aren't being responsible."
Those are things they are wired to do, instinctual, a cat can respond to immediate stimuli and not clean it's coat, or stop cleaning it's coat, but it can't or won't make a decision or choose to do it later. It certainly could when it wanted to, there's nothing that would prevent it from not doing it, but the way they operate there's something that tells them to do it and they do.
Unlike us, our bodies tell us "your hungry, your thirsty, your tired" we choose when and how to eat, drink and sleep.
Animals cant use rationale. They can make decisions based on experiences or stimuli. Like putting a piece of chicken in one hand and steak in the other, a dog might eat both, but why he eats one before the other such as the chicken before the steak or the steak before the chicken isn't based on a myriad on factors like me offering you a small piece of steak vs a small piece of chicken. For the dog we may never truly know why but it's not complex. The decision will be, he smelled the both one smelled better than the other, or he smelled both and at the second one because it was already by his mouth.
You have choice, reasons, rationale for your actions.
This is the overall question
Nut up in that and you’ll learn at least an interpretation of responsibility real fast.
This sounds like the end result of some mental rubix cube juelzing that an incredibly irresponsible person came up with..Of course we have free will and make choices, that’s literally all life is, a series of choices
MischievousMonkey
Gor bu dëgër
You didn't quote me correctly. I acknowledged what you're first talking about by using the word "considered". I did it on purpose, because indeed, good and bad are societal meters used for practicality.
Crimes are a societal thing. One crime in a society won't be one in another. I'm not talking about society, I'm talking about predisposition. I do agree that murderers and rapists are predetermined to do what they do. Now how we act about it is our prerogative as a society. The model we "chose" is believing in free will, choice, etc. so as to justify casting them off and punishing them, because it always was way more practical to do so for our societies.
Now please correct my argument, show me what you got
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MischievousMonkey
Gor bu dëgër
Yeah, I messed up with the translation. The word I was looking for was culpability I believe. My bad.
I agree with you on the notions of responsibility, merit etc., like I said in the OP. Man made.
I totally disagree on choice and I don't feel like you disproved what I said in the thread. Like I said in a precedent post:
This is not the only experience like that. There are numerous other examples.Yes, down to this
Moods don't pop out of nowhere, there are the results of multitud of stimuli unconciously processed by the fast brain. Studies show it. Daniel Kahneman and his book Thinking Fast and Slow showed that something as simple as making read to people series of words containing (not exclusively) vocabulary linked to old people (old, grey, rest, shyt like that) while giving words more related to sports to another group of people made a major difference: he then told the people who he gave the lists to to go to another room where the test would continue, knowing that they would have to walk a long corridor to get to that room.
Well almost all the people who were given the energetic list walked that corridor noticeably faster than the group with the old list, who took it slow.
Plenty other expériences confirmed how much we are influenced by our environment and expériences. The sun, the temperature, songs passing on the radio, dreams you had, things going on in your life, whether you're hungry or not, the last show or video you saw on the internet with a pizza ad on...
All this shyt is registered by our brain whether you're aware of it or not. Combine it with your personality and you get the explanation for every choice you ever made, down to the pizza toppings.
Like I said, we're just extremely complex machines telling ourselves we're more than that.
People didn't "choose" to walk fast or slow.
Hence why actions as insignificant as "how to eat, drink and sleep", "whether to eat or drink" are all prompted by "a myriad of factors". Choice is an illusion produced and encouraged by the fact your brain cannot consciously analyze and pinpoint all these stimulations.
MischievousMonkey
Gor bu dëgër
And it's a good one. But, the fact there is no absolute definition of good and bad doesn't mean that individuals knowing this truth cannot set their own meters. After all, that's what we've been doing, and it works just fine.
Oh and before someone tackles that, when I say set their own meter etc, I'm not suddenly considering that they can choose what they do. I'm just presenting information that might influence other "machines" to act in that way.
It’s so crazy breh society just wants us to go on with life without having questions. shyt like this could change the world in a heart beat. But, everybody’s distracted. And not distracted that you snap out of it, but distracted like they don’t want to be woken up. Smh
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No, our choices are not 100% decided by our genetics.
MischievousMonkey
Gor bu dëgër
MischievousMonkey
Gor bu dëgër
That's not what I said though
I edited the OP to bold the key words, maybe I wasn't clear enough@MyopicEagle
Maybe we aren't talking about the same thing but while we are wired like animals are, what separates us from them is the prefrontal cortex.
Animals have instincts that they are born with and die with. It's not a learned behavior. There are no experiences that make them not do what they do.
Humans have reflexes but not instincts, a lot of people get them confused.
A polar bear knows to cover it's black nose to camouflage in the snow, they don't look in mirrors, mothers don't teach them that. Coyotes know how to pounce on snow to grab a rabbit out of a hole.
If a baby is for instance fed up to the point where it can maneuver an mobilize (walk, crawl) and supposing it was in an environment with appropriate food sources, it could eat enough proteins, carbs, and maybe fats to still be able to live. But that's about all it could do is eat shyt and sleep .
Talking is a learned behavior (speaking a language) while communicating isn't. Long before we talk we can communicate. Reading writing all learned behavior and yes they are repeated often and consistently throughout your life.
Once you get past the very basics, the very very basics like the word yes and no. You have the ability to rationalize. Which is what separates us from animals.
You hand a dog a bowl of water, it's simple yes or no. For humans even if they answer is yes or no there is rational behind the answer.
No I'm not thirsty
I don't want 'that' drink
No I don't like that drink
The drink is too cold
The drink is too hot
Too sweet
Too bitter
Too sour
This is all rationale
You offer a dog water it'll look at it, smell it maybe take a sip and it either wants it or not. It's an on or off switch for the animal.
If you gave a dog water that was piping hot, the dog may want to drink and it'll burn it's tongue, it'll stop drinking. The pain is a reflex which will make it stop, through conditioning it may sniff more or put a paw in, push the bowl spilling some and test that to make sure it's safe. It's not using rationale, it's responding to stimuli.
Because of rationale we have consequences ( positive, negative and man made) which are more than just reactions to stimuli. For instance a dog can step in thorns and feel pain it'll learn through that interaction not to step there. Same for humans.
As far as interacting with others and living in this world, we as human have choices and have to make choices. You can choose to go to work or not, through learned behavior there are pros and cons. But you choose, not through instinct or reflex but rationalization .
Maybe we aren't talking about the same thing but while we are wired like animals are, what separates us from them is the prefrontal cortex.
Animals have instincts that they are born with and die with. It's not a learned behavior. There are no experiences that make them not do what they do.
Humans have reflexes but not instincts, a lot of people get them confused.
A polar bear knows to cover it's black nose to camouflage in the snow, they don't look in mirrors, mothers don't teach them that. Coyotes know how to pounce on snow to grab a rabbit out of a hole.
If a baby is for instance fed up to the point where it can maneuver an mobilize (walk, crawl) and supposing it was in an environment with appropriate food sources, it could eat enough proteins, carbs, and maybe fats to still be able to live. But that's about all it could do is eat shyt and sleep .
Talking is a learned behavior (speaking a language) while communicating isn't. Long before we talk we can communicate. Reading writing all learned behavior and yes they are repeated often and consistently throughout your life.
Once you get past the very basics, the very very basics like the word yes and no. You have the ability to rationalize. Which is what separates us from animals.
You hand a dog a bowl of water, it's simple yes or no. For humans even if they answer is yes or no there is rational behind the answer.
No I'm not thirsty
I don't want 'that' drink
No I don't like that drink
The drink is too cold
The drink is too hot
Too sweet
Too bitter
Too sour
This is all rationale
You offer a dog water it'll look at it, smell it maybe take a sip and it either wants it or not. It's an on or off switch for the animal.
If you gave a dog water that was piping hot, the dog may want to drink and it'll burn it's tongue, it'll stop drinking. The pain is a reflex which will make it stop, through conditioning it may sniff more or put a paw in, push the bowl spilling some and test that to make sure it's safe. It's not using rationale, it's responding to stimuli.
Because of rationale we have consequences ( positive, negative and man made) which are more than just reactions to stimuli. For instance a dog can step in thorns and feel pain it'll learn through that interaction not to step there. Same for humans.
As far as interacting with others and living in this world, we as human have choices and have to make choices. You can choose to go to work or not, through learned behavior there are pros and cons. But you choose, not through instinct or reflex but rationalization .
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