Too poor for pop culture

[DEAD7]

As @acri1 has pointed out "libertarians" really don't have a finger on the pulse of HUMANITY and like to apply number theory to often unpredictable people.

Companies don't hire when taxes are low, it makes no sense.

People don't save even though it's in their best interest. People don't go to college even though it's in their best interest. They don't eat correctly. Hell take a look at the vast majority of america and based on health, credit score, education level, divorce rates, etc, etc can you really say they do what is in their best interests vs what they BELIEVE is in their best interests?

See again, The problem isn't that people make bad choices, the problem is that any system of governance should take into account that simple undeniable truth.

A completely free market devoid of regulation doesn't take into account people.

in a perfect world a complete and utter free market where all people act like robots and "do the right thing" then sure, that would be teh way to go. But, in a world with greedy ass people who can't see past their own self interest, well, we need regulation.

making it so they individuals dont have to worry(as much) about making extremely poor decisions doesnt seem like much of a solution... or like the role of govt. but I concede people will do bone head things.

I'd also argue that the fact people are not robots is why we are where we are, and that a unregulated market free from the force of bone head individuals would be superior in almost every regard.
I know i'm not gonna sell you on the free market i'm just sayin.

If people are gonna do stupid things, why put enormous economic power(govt.) in their hands?

 

[Dusty Bake Activate]

Lol@everybody completely ignoring that bullshyt racist essay gundumb wrote.

 

[Brown_Pride]

making it so they individuals dont have to worry(as much) about making extremely poor decisions doesnt seem like much of a solution... or like the role of govt. but I concede people will do bone head things.

Yes and no. So the gov doesn't need to make it so individuals don't have to worry, but it does need to help create a situation where when people DO fuk up it doesn't spiral out of control and destroy the country (a la what IMHO will eventually happen in America)

I'd also argue that the fact people are not robots is why we are where we are, and that a unregulated market free from the force of bone head individuals would be superior in almost every regard.

Perhaps, either way we have to rely on people to not be idiots...which thinking more is probably the fundamental issue with any real system. Which is why I say the "best" system is one that takes this into account.

I know i'm not gonna sell you on the free market i'm just sayin.

If people are gonna do stupid things, why put enormous economic power(govt.) in their hands?

I think the idea is that if the RIGHT people had the power in their hands, and by right i mean people not prone to boneheadedness, then things would function correctly, prosperously and perpetually.

 

[DEAD7]

I think the idea is that if the RIGHT people had the power in their hands, and by right i mean people not prone to boneheadedness, then things would function correctly, prosperously and perpetually.

I don't believe the "right" people exist, and I would consider anyone who felt they could fill that position grossly arrogant. I prefer to place my trust in systemic processes rather than the hearts of "a few good men".

Power always corrupts... absolutely.

 

[Brown_Pride]

I don't believe the "right" people exist, and I would consider anyone who felt they could fill that position grossly arrogant. I prefer to place my trust in systemic processes rather than the hearts of "a few good men".

Power always corrupts... absolutely.

I agree. This is the problem though is it not? Any system is by design going to be administered by people, the coalescence of power, if we look at human history, is IMHO as natural to the human condition as growing old and dying.

How then do you govern? IMHO the person who wants the job should never, EVER get it. ...and even that has it's own set of issues...

 

[DEAD7]

I agree. This is the problem though is it not? Any system is by design going to be administered by people, the coalescence of power, if we look at human history, is IMHO as natural to the human condition as growing old and dying.

How then do you govern? IMHO the person who wants the job should never, EVER get it. ...and even that has it's own set of issues...

We cant avoid this pitfall, but we can minimize the damage any one person, or group can cause. Which is ultimately what shrinking govt. is all about.

Concentrations of power like we have now, are infinitely more dangerous than concentrations of wealth. I wish more people realized this...

 

[Brown_Pride]

We cant avoid this pitfall, but we can minimize the damage any one person, or group can cause. Which is ultimately what shrinking govt. is all about.

Concentrations of power like we have now, are infinitely more dangerous than concentrations of wealth. I wish more people realized this...

You'd still see concentration of power around things like monopolies and such. Look at the Steel Barons. When you have no control you have anarchy and a potential for exploitation (not that you don't have one now...but it was worse prior to government interference.

Concentration of wealth IS a concentration of power.
That explains why people will spend MILLIONS upon MILLIONS for a job that pays THOUSANDS

Makes no sense when you think about it...

 

[DEAD7]

You'd still see concentration of power around things like monopolies and such. Look at the Steel Barons. When you have no control you have anarchy and a potential for exploitation (not that you don't have one now...but it was worse prior to government interference.

Concentration of wealth IS a concentration of power.
That explains why people will spend MILLIONS upon MILLIONS for a job that pays THOUSANDS

Makes no sense when you think about it...

Market power, is influence over govt. Remove this, and what would a concentration of market power look like?

and wealth is a form of power, but its nothing like force. Govt. can force you to buy/do/accept yadda-yadda, Bill Gates, wal-mart etc. cant force you to do anything.

... and I said minimal control not no controls

 

[Brown_Pride]

Market power, is influence over govt. Remove this, and what would a concentration of market power look like?

and wealth is a form of power, but its nothing like force. Govt. can force you to buy/do/accept yadda-yadda, Bill Gates, wal-mart etc. cant force you to do anything.

... and I said minimal control not no controls

walmart can't do shyt because the government wont let them.

Remove influence over politics and you don't need a free market. You've said it yourself the problem isn't capitalism it's corporatism.

Again let's look to history. People with money buy influence, be it within politics or with the people. Typically it's within politics because that has been the traditional model the people have agreed (or been forced) to abide by. Why go to the people when you can go to the government controlling the people whom the people have let control them?

See the thing is in your numbers only world MONEY is seen as some benevolent metaphysical concept, truth of the matter is that since the dawn of time people have been doing ill shyt over money (or it's equivalent) all in the name of having more and using that more to get power.

It seriously appears to be part of the human condition.

 

[DEAD7]

walmart can't do shyt because the government wont let them.

Remove influence over politics and you don't need a free market. You've said it yourself the problem isn't capitalism it's corporatism.

Again let's look to history. People with money buy influence, be it within politics or with the people. Typically it's within politics because that has been the traditional model the people have agreed (or been forced) to abide by. Why go to the people when you can go to the government controlling the people whom the people have let control them?

See the thing is in your numbers only world MONEY is seen as some benevolent metaphysical concept, truth of the matter is that since the dawn of time people have been doing ill shyt over money (or it's equivalent) all in the name of having more and using that more to get power.

It seriously appears to be part of the human condition.

Absolutely, but the use of govt. places it within the law. Its a completely different animal.

What evils could wal-mart or any other wealthy entity lawfully do without the aid of the state?

 

[Brown_Pride]

Absolutely, but the use of govt. places it within the law. Its a completely different animal.

What evils could wal-mart or any other wealthy entity lawfully do without the aid of the state?

Assuming we went back to 1900 type laws with little to no regulation...

Hire people for 10 cents an hour and or store credit.
Work kids to death
Work adults to death
Force people to vote a certain way through intimidation
Provide unsafe working conditions.
Knowingly sell defective potentially dangerous shyt.
Discriminate.

Stuff like that.

 

[DEAD7]

Assuming we went back to 1900 type laws with little to no regulation...

In this day and age.

 

[Brown_Pride]

In this day and age.

My point exactly.
Isn't that what you're advocating? A time with little to no regulation?

What is it you want to see exactly?

 

[DEAD7]

My point exactly.
Isn't that what you're advocating? A time with little to no regulation?

What is it you want to see exactly?

I think its more than fair to say society today is far removed from society then in many ways. Economics today are far different then they were then.
But none of that matters, I asked for what they could do lawfully, and you listed things that are all against the law... there doesnt appear to be any real threat, just unwarranted fear.

 

[Brown_Pride]

I think its more than fair to say society today is far removed from society then in many ways. Economics today are far different then they were then.
But none of that matters, I asked for what they could do lawfully, and you listed things that are all against the law... there doesnt appear to be any real threat, just unwarranted fear.

everything i listed was legal prior to regulation. It stands to reason that without regulation we'd go back to the way things were before people were forced to change.
As proof of this let's look to what companies like Walmart, Polo, Tommy Hill, etc, etc do when they go overseas. They purposefully went to places were they could exploit workers as cost effectively as possible.

You're saying that we're more...civilized...? If we are it's BECAUSE of regulation, not in spite of it.