The Untold Story of Men in "Mad Men"

Zapp Brannigan

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You're dealing with intelligent people. You need to understand that people comprehend your arguments fully, they just think they're bullshyt.

Feminism is a "hateful ideology" :wtf: Feminism at its core is just a social movement for equal socioeconomic and political statusfor women after centuries of it being denied. You can argue that the movement has gone astray, or been too co-opted by short-sighted or extremist strains, or that much of its focus or motivations have become outdated, but to label the entirety of feminism a "hateful ideology" is fukking absurd and you seem too smart too say something like that.

You're obviously very emotionally invested in this for reasons only you know. Your posts on gender remind me of Gundam's posts on race.

:ld: Pretty much. It's been hijacked. The feminism of today isn't your and the rest of our mothers' feminism. I'm still blown away that despite all I've written about the false rape statistics, labor stats, education stats, and prison stats, that people just don't get it. I have to assume that it's because they don't want to.

If you want me to give one big concession, here it is: I might spend too much time on Reddit and Tumblr, strongly influencing my views on modern feminism, but Feminism in its original state has achieved pretty much everything it's needed to. Anything beyond the maintenance of rights previously attained just seems very encroaching to me.
 

Dusty Bake Activate

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:ld: Pretty much. It's been hijacked. The feminism of today isn't your and the rest of our mothers' feminism. I'm still blown away that despite all I've written about the false rape statistics, labor stats, education stats, and prison stats, that people just don't get it. I have to assume that it's because they don't want to.

If you want me to give one big concession, here it is: I might spend too much time on Reddit and Tumblr, strongly influencing my views on modern feminism, but Feminism in its original state has achieved pretty much everything it's needed to. Anything beyond the maintenance of rights previously attained just seems very encroaching to me.

Well why don't you tell us specifically tell us how feminism is oppressing men today. Not stats to try and support the case that men have trials and tribulations that are not acknowledged, but rather what deleterious impact feminism is having on the everyday lives of men? Because I fail to see how me or any man I know is oppressed by feminism in any substantial way.

And if you mention child support and alimony, I will agree that those are legitimate gripes and they need legal reform. But they're not a product of feminism, as they were established in the 1700's when most women weren't working, and should be updated to reflect new conditions.
 

Will2x

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I gotta say I'm impressed by Daygo's sources backing up his points. Even though he's getting ganged up on, I feel his argument is the strongest.
 

Zapp Brannigan

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Well why don't you tell us specifically tell us how feminism is oppressing men today. Not stats to try and support the case that men have trials and tribulations that are not acknowledged, but rather what deleterious impact feminism is having on the everyday lives of men? Because I fail to see how me or any man I know is oppressed by feminism in any substantial way.

And if you mention child support and alimony, I will agree that those are legitimate gripes and they need legal reform. But they're not a product of feminism, as they were established in the 1700's when most women weren't working, and should be updated to reflect new conditions.

Feminists fight AGAINST men's rights. Here are some examples to prove my point.

Father's rights group want shared parenting (equal custody) to be the default if both parents want custody and neither parent is unfit. They feel that men should not be punished for being men, and that women should not be awarded custody to their kids simply for being women. Currently women are awarded primary custody almost all the time, even if the husband was the stay-at-home Dad and the woman was the breadwinner.

Feminists fought against this, as can be seen here:

Michigan NOW Declares 'Action Alert' Against Shared Parenting Bill; PBS Campaign Aftermath | GlennSacks.com

Men want protection against false rape allegations. They feel that a man's life should not be ruined simply on the allegation of a woman who may be a vindictive liar. Currently, a woman can accuse a man of rape for no reason, and the man's name is splashed in the paper and his life is ruined. So, they fought for laws granting men anonymity until charged with the crime of rape—not convicted, just charged.

Feminists fought against this as can be seen here:

BBC News - Rape charge anonymity pledge dropped

We OBJECT to plans to grant anonymity to rape defendants

Men want an end to the justice system favouring women simply because they are women, and giving men harsher sentences simply because they are men.

Feminists fought against this, even asserting that women who had murdered multiple people shouldn't be held to the same standard:

BBC News - Women's prisons should close, says justice taskforce

Women's prisons 'should all close within a decade' - News - London Evening Standard

Men want equal treatment when victims of domestic violence, and to not be arrested for the crime of "being male" under primary aggressor policies. Feminists violently resisted this with a scare campaign:

http://pubpages.unh.edu/~mas2/V74-gender-symmetry-with-gramham-Kevan-Method 8-.pdf

And sadly, they were successful in this effort of propaganda. For decades, and continuing today, violent men are (rightfully) convicted and punished by the state, while violent women are left to freely terrorize and harm their partners. Sadly, largely it's only men are the targets of the justice system as a result.

http://www.law.fsu.edu/journals/lawreview/downloads/304/kelly.pdf

Men want female rapists to be arrested, charged, and convicted with rape. In Western countries, women are rarely punished when raping men, due to the biased legal system. In some countries, women cannot be punished when raping men, since rape is defined as a "male-perpetrated" crime. Feminists fought against this globally:

Rape law amendment:

Women

Men want equal economic support and help from the government. When the recession hit, male-dominated fields like construction lost millions of jobs, while female-fields like education and healthcare gained jobs. So the government proposed an economic stimulus for those fields. Feminists successfully fought against this, seeing it as a threat somehow to them.

No Country for Burly Men | The Weekly Standard
 

Robbie3000

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To be fair certain elements in modern feminism have become too extreme.

Also, life can be hard for both genders. It doesn't have to be a binary choice.
 

No_bammer_weed

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Feminists fight AGAINST men's rights. Here are some examples to prove my point.


Men want protection against false rape allegations. They feel that a man's life should not be ruined simply on the allegation of a woman who may be a vindictive liar. Currently, a woman can accuse a man of rape for no reason, and the man's name is splashed in the paper and his life is ruined. So, they fought for laws granting men anonymity until charged with the crime of rape—not convicted, just charged.

Feminists fought against this as can be seen here:

BBC News - Rape charge anonymity pledge dropped

We OBJECT to plans to grant anonymity to rape defendants

Wait a minute...criminals who are simply accused of a crime --- whether drug related, violent offense: murder, child abuse, etc. have their likenesses and names published in this society, as it is an accepted collaboration between our justice system, and the media. Why is it that you are singling out rape, exclusively? You are asking for a wholesale deviation in the way the media reports on crime, but only for one specific offense.
 

The Real

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Feminists fight AGAINST men's rights. Here are some examples to prove my point.

You didn't answer VVD's question. How is your own, everyday life affected by this evil feminist battle against men?

Furthermore, the way you're going about this is all wrong. Posting a smattering of unconnected incidents from different times and places is a very bad way to prove that anything is good or bad, and makes you look like a conspiracy theorist who is asserting that there is some massive, global, feminist push against men, which is laughable.

Father's rights group want shared parenting (equal custody) to be the default if both parents want custody and neither parent is unfit. They feel that men should not be punished for being men, and that women should not be awarded custody to their kids simply for being women. Currently women are awarded primary custody almost all the time, even if the husband was the stay-at-home Dad and the woman was the breadwinner.

Feminists fought against this, as can be seen here:

Michigan NOW Declares 'Action Alert' Against Shared Parenting Bill; PBS Campaign Aftermath | GlennSacks.com

And for good reason. This idea basically suggests that any parent should be given equal custody as long as the court deems them "fit." If we go by your own scenarios, there are a number of women (and men) who are abusive, violent, and unfit but get deemed fit for custody by the courts. More specific standards would be superior, but this bill wants to generalize them by default. The correct answer here is to make the standards even more specific, not to generalize.

Men want protection against false rape allegations. They feel that a man's life should not be ruined simply on the allegation of a woman who may be a vindictive liar. Currently, a woman can accuse a man of rape for no reason, and the man's name is splashed in the paper and his life is ruined. So, they fought for laws granting men anonymity until charged with the crime of rape—not convicted, just charged.

Feminists fought against this as can be seen here:

BBC News - Rape charge anonymity pledge dropped

We OBJECT to plans to grant anonymity to rape defendants

Your first link doesn't work.

First off, the idea that false rape accusations are an easy tool is just plain wrong. It's well-documented that rape charges have very serious social effects on the person doing the accusing, whether male or female. There's social stigma attached to being a rape accuser, which is exactly why men underreport rape.

Second, why should rape defendents be given anonymity? If it were true that a large number of rape accusations were false, then this measure may be worth considering, but that isn't the case. As I pointed out before, using the corrected infographic, even if you assume ALL accused who don't reach trial are innocent (which is obviously not true,) the number of true charges is still over 5 times higher than the number of false charges. In short, this measure would protect more rapists than innocent people.

Men want an end to the justice system favouring women simply because they are women, and giving men harsher sentences simply because they are men.

Feminists fought against this, even asserting that women who had murdered multiple people shouldn't be held to the same standard:

BBC News - Women's prisons should close, says justice taskforce

Women's prisons 'should all close within a decade' - News - London Evening Standard

I didn't see the word feminist in either of these articles. What makes you label the one organization and one parliamentary member who support this initiatve "feminist," and furthermore, to pluralize it as if it represents some mass body of opinion? Feminism is about equality- why should something that wants to heighten and concretize gender inequality be feminist, especially when it doesn't label itself such? Are people who believe that women should be given less rights MRAs?

Men want equal treatment when victims of domestic violence, and to not be arrested for the crime of "being male" under primary aggressor policies. Feminists violently resisted this with a scare campaign:

http://pubpages.unh.edu/~mas2/V74-gender-symmetry-with-gramham-Kevan-Method 8-.pdf

And sadly, they were successful in this effort of propaganda. For decades, and continuing today, violent men are (rightfully) convicted and punished by the state, while violent women are left to freely terrorize and harm their partners. Sadly, largely it's only men are the targets of the justice system as a result.

http://www.law.fsu.edu/journals/lawreview/downloads/304/kelly.pdf

I completely agree, male victims should be helped, not that the MRA community is doing anything about it. Some of the stats in those articles are very easy to tear down, though. More troubling, anyway, is attempting to use this research to support the near-conspiratorial scenario you are implying, which actually isn't present in any of the research you posted.


Men want female rapists to be arrested, charged, and convicted with rape. In Western countries, women are rarely punished when raping men, due to the biased legal system. In some countries, women cannot be punished when raping men, since rape is defined as a "male-perpetrated" crime. Feminists fought against this globally:

Rape law amendment:

Women

Eh, the first article specifically speaks of a debate within the gender activist community in India, not an overwhelming consensus that men don't get raped and shouldn't have rape laws- it specifically talks about women supporting neutrality.

The 2nd article explains the situation: "a woman who causes or makes it possible for a person to insert his (or her) bodily organ or an object into her sexual organ will be charged with rape..." That's an absurd definition of rape and could easily be abused. Any reasonable person should oppose such a law. "Making it possible" for someone to penetrate you is a ridiculous way to define rape- as the article notes, someone could rape a woman and then use this definition to claim that the victim actually raped them.

Men want equal economic support and help from the government. When the recession hit, male-dominated fields like construction lost millions of jobs, while female-fields like education and healthcare gained jobs. So the government proposed an economic stimulus for those fields. Feminists successfully fought against this, seeing it as a threat somehow to them.

No Country for Burly Men | The Weekly Standard

The line about male and female dominated industries is perfect sophistry. Framing the issue through the number of jobs men lost in very specific industries is a great way to avoid a lot of issues: that women are still losing more jobs while men are gaining them, economic recovery is still taking longer for women than men, and women are more likely to be poor and to die from lack of access to money and resources, and that's true worldwide, not just in the US.

Economic Recession | Pew Social & Demographic Trends
Women, the Recession, and the Impending Economic Recovery | Graziadio Business Review | Graziadio School of Business and Management | Pepperdine University
"Women in the Down Economy: Impacts of the Recession and the Stimulus i" by Randy Albelda and Christa Kelleher
Off the balance sheet: the impact of the economic crisis on girls and young women
 

Zapp Brannigan

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You didn't answer VVD's question. How is your own, everyday life affected by this evil feminist battle against men?

Furthermore, the way you're going about this is all wrong. Posting a smattering of unconnected incidents from different times and places is a very bad way to prove that anything is good or bad, and makes you look like a conspiracy theorist who is asserting that there is some massive, global, feminist push against men, which is laughable.



And for good reason. This idea basically suggests that any parent should be given equal custody as long as the court deems them "fit." If we go by your own scenarios, there are a number of women (and men) who are abusive, violent, and unfit but get deemed fit for custody by the courts. More specific standards would be superior, but this bill wants to generalize them by default. The correct answer here is to make the standards even more specific, not to generalize.



Your first link doesn't work.

First off, the idea that false rape accusations are an easy tool is just plain wrong. It's well-documented that rape charges have very serious social effects on the person doing the accusing, whether male or female. There's social stigma attached to being a rape accuser, which is exactly why men underreport rape.

Second, why should rape defendents be given anonymity? If it were true that a large number of rape accusations were false, then this measure may be worth considering, but that isn't the case. As I pointed out before, using the corrected infographic, even if you assume ALL accused who don't reach trial are innocent (which is obviously not true,) the number of true charges is still over 5 times higher than the number of false charges. In short, this measure would protect more rapists than innocent people.



I didn't see the word feminist in either of these articles. What makes you label the one organization and one parliamentary member who support this initiatve "feminist," and furthermore, to pluralize it as if it represents some mass body of opinion? Feminism is about equality- why should something that wants to heighten and concretize gender inequality be feminist, especially when it doesn't label itself such? Are people who believe that women should be given less rights MRAs?



I completely agree, male victims should be helped, not that the MRA community is doing anything about it. Some of the stats in those articles are very easy to tear down, though. More troubling, anyway, is attempting to use this research to support the near-conspiratorial scenario you are implying, which actually isn't present in any of the research you posted.




Eh, the first article specifically speaks of a debate within the gender activist community in India, not an overwhelming consensus that men don't get raped and shouldn't have rape laws- it specifically talks about women supporting neutrality.

The 2nd article explains the situation: "a woman who causes or makes it possible for a person to insert his (or her) bodily organ or an object into her sexual organ will be charged with rape..." That's an absurd definition of rape and could easily be abused. Any reasonable person should oppose such a law. "Making it possible" for someone to penetrate you is a ridiculous way to define rape- as the article notes, someone could rape a woman and then use this definition to claim that the victim actually raped them.



The line about male and female dominated industries is perfect sophistry. Framing the issue through the number of jobs men lost in very specific industries is a great way to avoid a lot of issues: that women are still losing more jobs while men are gaining them, economic recovery is still taking longer for women than men, and women are more likely to be poor and to die from lack of access to money and resources, and that's true worldwide, not just in the US.

Economic Recession | Pew Social & Demographic Trends
Women, the Recession, and the Impending Economic Recovery | Graziadio Business Review | Graziadio School of Business and Management | Pepperdine University
"Women in the Down Economy: Impacts of the Recession and the Stimulus i" by Randy Albelda and Christa Kelleher
Off the balance sheet: the impact of the economic crisis on girls and young women

Not going to answer the question of what personally affects me here, as it's nobody's business and doesn't really add to this discussion, so stop asking. The only reason they (and apparently you) ask is because whenever this subject comes up again, you'll just say, "You're just mad because [this event] happened to you. Your point is now invalid!"

And I'm not posting these things like a conspiracy theorist, I'm pointing out that there is a noticeable trend among feminists that seems to be very anti-male.

Family courts are heavily biased (although not always institutionally) against men. Setting up a bill that would allow the parents to have joint custody is a good thing and the reason that NOW fights against it is because women will have stronger influence over the child's development and allow women to take greater advantage over child support laws.

I honestly think that defendants' identities in pretty much any criminal case should be classified until the trial is over, but particularly for rape because a rape charge is extremely serious and can quickly damage a possibly innocent person's reputation. I mean, shyt, even you assume through that infographic of yours that all those people in that square are rapists, but they just happened to walk despite not having the proper evidence to prove it.

Since when is feminism about equality? What does equality even mean in this context to you? Is it really hard to infer that advocates for closing women's prisons, namely Jean Corston, are feminists trying to make life unfairly easy for women in contrast to men?

Go ahead and tear down those stats, then. And no, doing mental gymnastics and making assumptions of things that weren't established isn't going to make it count.

"Making it possible" would be left up to a court to decide, and despite what you've heard about courtroom horror stories, it would be very difficult for people to stretch that as much as you're making it out to be.

You do realize that there's a widening gap of unemployment between women and men, right? And that said gap is a result of men being impacted to a greater extent by the industries they traditionally go to? And you do know that women are more likely to be poor because they work jobs that make less money (on their own accord)? And of course I feel for women who are poor and outright suffering for it, but you again (in your typical feminist way) seem to think that I'm okay with that because I advocate for men. Again with the extremely unfair assumptions. I guess you can do that if you want to feel like you're arguing against that rather than what I had originally said.
 
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