The Untold Story of Men in "Mad Men"

[The Real]

This entire post just states what you've set out to prove. In any case, the infographic that you've posted is horribly misleading and despite Christina Hoff Summers receiving criticism from her book, you still didn't address the actual arguments in any of the articles.

And really? I'm an atheist myself, but that doesn't mean that I'm going to immediately discount something for coming from a Christian perspective.

Maybe you should do less ad hominem and practice what you preach regarding innocent until proven guilty before you make completely unsubstantiated claims like, "there are good reasons to believe those were indeed rapists!"

Sounds like you've missed the point. As I showed above, you don't need to believe that any of the accused were rapists to show how weak your argument is. I also posted something which corrected the very infographic you're talking about, and that makes your argument look even worse. As for the articles you posted, I already addressed what was relevant about them (very little,) since none of them addressed the original stats, but tried to attack other surveys and studies.

 

[Zapp Brannigan]

Sounds like you've missed the point. As I showed above, you don't need to believe that any of the accused were rapists to show how weak your argument is. I also posted something which corrected the very infographic you're talking about, and that makes your argument look even worse. As for the articles you posted, I already addressed what was relevant about them (very little,) since none of them addressed the original stats, but tried to attack other surveys and studies.

You posted the infographic with the intent to show how few falsely accused rapists there are, and I showed you several articles that showed that the rape statistics that you might see in feminist propaganda like you posted was a total lie. I even explained to you that it was complete nonsense that you'd assume that a man was a rapist even though he may have been let off the hook for lack of evidence of such a crime. Then you went on to get defensive over assuming that the innocent were guilty even though you couldn't even defend against a criticism of the idea behind your initial post.

Nothing about what I wrote made my argument look worse, but I suppose that when you believe anything that the feminists will tell you, you'll end up putting your foot in it the way you do.

 

[TLR Is Mental Poison]

Again, who said that this was me embracing and wallowing in victimhood?

I am.

And who said that I said that white men in the 50's were the biggest victims?

Nobody did

I just point it out that in the gender debate, things were not easy because of the intensity of the work involved at the time and the stakes that were involved with not meeting with the societally imposed gender obligations at the time.

Men were and still are far freer to eschew those obligations. A man doesn't start a family, so what. A woman in the 50s doesn't get married, she will die poor. And to a large degree that double standard still exists.

1. Women are treated better in all aspects of the legal system. For instance, women receive lighter sentences and a higher chance of acquittal, simply for being women.

Legitimate.

2. Men are significantly more likely to be the victims of violent crime (of which rape is included) than women.

Men commit far more violent crimes too, and generally put themselves in higher risk situations. Can you substantiate the allegation that men get raped more than women w/an unbiased source?

3. Despite domestic violence being equally committed by women, for the most part only male perpetrators are arrested.

Again, source.

4. The feminist definition of domestic violence has skewed arrest and prosecution philosophies, resulting in having mostly male batterers criminally pursued, and female batterers left alone.

Laughable

5. It is legal to circumcise male babies against their will. In some places, laws have been passed which forbid any attempts to make male circumcision illegal. Meanwhile, female circumcision is completely illegal, even though some types of female circumcision are equivalent in harm to male circumcision, and other types (a symbolic prick to draw blood) are non-harmful.

Either way, its involuntary on the kid's part. It should all be illegal. Plus it is the parents' choice, not the laws. There are no laws forcing male circumcision, only allowing it.

6. Men comprise 95% of workplace deaths.

At the hands of women? Or because we are overrepresented in industries (mining, construction, etc) that are dangerous? Where is the feminist conspiracy keeping women from working in coal mines?

7. Men commit suicide at over triple the rate that women do.

Again, how is feminism responsible?

8. The vast majority of prisoners are men.

Makes sense, the vast majority of criminals are men.

9. Men are doing worse in all aspects of the educational system, from kindergarten to university.

Feminist conspiracy link please?

10. Men who are falsely accused of rape can have their names published and their lives ruined even if they are not convicted or charged - their accuser is protected and is likely to face no punishment, or a light one.

For the 10th time, false rape accusations are numerically insignificant in the context of unreported rapes.

11. Reproductive rights. Men have none. Simply read this story.

Men have the right to vasectomies. Men biologically are able to, and do flee. Men can use condoms. Like I told you before men aren't "forced" to impregnate anybody, just as you regularly argue that women aren't forced to sleep with deadbeats. Being that a woman goes through the pregancy and will be responsible for the baby if the man disappears, makes sense that a woman holds the rights to her uterus.

12. Parental rights. Men have virtually none. See below.
A woman can name any man she likes as the father, he gets a letter in the mail, if he does not prove he isn't the father within 30 days—(suppose the letter gets lost by the USPS?)—he is now the father and must pay. He cannot contest it.

How often does that happen? Why can't he get a DNA test?

- A boy who is the victim of statutory rape must pay child support to his rapist.

Link?

- A man who is raped while unconscious must likewise pay child support.

How can a man get raped unconsciously and ejaculate????

- A man who fathers a child and wishes to take custody may have his child adopted out against his will and essentially kidnapped

What percent of child custody cases end up this way?

13. The majority of homeless are men.

How is this the result of feminism?

14. Despite men's need being arguably greater than women, government spending to help women
is 10 to 100 times greater than that to help men. That figure is unrelated to medical spending.

Often because women are stuck with kids men refuse to take care of.

15. In 2009/2010 it was $1,516,460 toward men and $57,562,373 toward women. In 2010/2011 it was $3,740,800 toward men and $48,331,443 toward women. In 2008/2009 the province dedicated $561,360 toward men's resources and $98,983,236 toward women's resources. (figures are for British Columbia, Canada, but representative of Western society).

14 and 15 are 1 point you clown. And what exactly does this "help" entail?

16. Female-owned businesses get free government money for literally no reason other than being a woman (i.e. all other factors are equal, same size of business, same income, etc. etc. but the owner's gender is different = money or no money.

And? Black businesses get free money, Asian businesses get free money, Latino businesses get free money. So why is it only a problem if women get it?

17. On some airlines, men were banned from sitting next to kids on airplanes, simply because they were men. Why? Because men are pedophiles, obviously. This ban remains on some airlines, such as Air New Zealand.

Do you dream of sitting next to a kid on a flight???

18. Under a recent federal directive, men are convicted of rape in university campuses if the investigating board finds that the chances they committed the rape are at 50.00001% or greater.

Link?

19. The DOE policy in practice: Caleb Warner was accused of rape and expelled from the University of North Dakota, then his accuser was charged with filing a false report. He remained expelled as of June 2011.

Again, why are you separating points? Did you just google 'how are men mistreated in western society' and number each paragraph?

20. Selective service. Enough said.

Men voluntarily sign up for military service way more than women too. I suppose that's a feminist conspiracy as well.

So you want to cry about men not being able to sit next to kids on airplanes, but downplay underreported male on female rape reporting. But yea, you aren't going out of your way to victimize Western males

 

[zerozero]

the in-thread rigmarole aside, it's actually a good article

 

[The Real]

Jesus Christ. You're really bad at this.

But I'm the one resorting to ad-homs. Ok.

I said that "patriarchy hurts men, too" is a lie, I wasn't denying that they made this patronizing, minimizing statement

Actually, that's exactly what you did. You said that "I'm saying that there are shytty things that men have to deal with and that feminism tries to deny this using lies and propaganda." Then you said there was a "bullshyt lie that "patriarchy hurts men, too" because by definition it doesn't and wouldn't hurt men to begin with."

So you want to claim that feminism lies to deny men's suffering , but then right after, you claim that feminism promotes the idea of male suffering... through lies. If you can't see the simple inconsistency of these two statements, I don't know what you tell you. Either feminism accepts or rejects that men suffer. Whether their explanation for that suffering is right or wrong is a separate issue- you've just contradicted yourself.

We've reached a point where you can't even decide what you're arguing against. It's clear that something is preventing you from being able to discuss this issue rationally. Not sure what that is, but I'd suggest you calm down before you try having these discussions.

this patronizing, minimizing statement that only vilifies men to an even greater extent for things that they don't have control over.

How are men vilified when it's pointed out that they suffer from gender roles? It would be vilifying them to say that they didn't suffer at all. But wait, you don't know whether you're saying that feminists deny or affirm male suffering, so this whole point is moot.

And stop using the false equivalency regarding race. Sheeze, you even violated Godwin's law. The argument you're making about patriarchy could be used for almost any modern advocacy group for different people.

I didn't use any equivalencies in that post. Read slower. A general structural homology is not the same thing as equivalence. And yes, it could be used for many different groups, though not all advocacy groups.

 

[Dusty Bake Activate]

Why do you get so salty and assume that I hate women for pointing this all out to you?

I'm the salty one here? I think everyone reading this thread is wondering what's got you so tight.

And when did I say anything that indicated an assumption that you hate women?

 

[Zapp Brannigan]

I am.

Nobody did


Men were and still are far freer to eschew those obligations. A man doesn't start a family, so what. A woman in the 50s doesn't get married, she will die poor. And to a large degree that double standard still exists.


Legitimate.


Men commit far more violent crimes too, and generally put themselves in higher risk situations. Can you substantiate the allegation that men get raped more than women w/an unbiased source?

Again, source.


Laughable


Either way, its involuntary on the kid's part. It should all be illegal. Plus it is the parents' choice, not the laws. There are no laws forcing male circumcision, only allowing it.


At the hands of women? Or because we are overrepresented in industries (mining, construction, etc) that are dangerous? Where is the feminist conspiracy keeping women from working in coal mines?


Again, how is feminism responsible?

Makes sense, the vast majority of criminals are men.


Feminist conspiracy link please?


For the 10th time, false rape accusations are numerically insignificant in the context of unreported rapes.


Men have the right to vasectomies. Men biologically are able to, and do flee. Men can use condoms. Like I told you before men aren't "forced" to impregnate anybody, just as you regularly argue that women aren't forced to sleep with deadbeats. Being that a woman goes through the pregancy and will be responsible for the baby if the man disappears, makes sense that a woman holds the rights to her uterus.


How often does that happen? Why can't he get a DNA test?


Link?


How can a man get raped unconsciously and ejaculate????


What percent of child custody cases end up this way?


How is this the result of feminism?


Often because women are stuck with kids men refuse to take care of.


14 and 15 are 1 point you clown. And what exactly does this "help" entail?


And? Black businesses get free money, Asian businesses get free money, Latino businesses get free money. So why is it only a problem if women get it?


Do you dream of sitting next to a kid on a flight???


Link?


Again, why are you separating points? Did you just google 'how are men mistreated in western society' and number each paragraph?



Men voluntarily sign up for military service way more than women too. I suppose that's a feminist conspiracy as well.

So you want to cry about men not being able to sit next to kids on airplanes, but downplay underreported male on female rape reporting. But yea, you aren't going out of your way to victimize Western males

Violent crime victim source: Sex differences in crime - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Male Victims of domestic abuse:
REFERENCES EXAMINING ASSAULTS BY WOMEN ON THEIR SPOUSES OR MALE PARTNERS: AN ANNOTATED BIBLIOGRAPHY

Female Batterers left alone:
http://www.law.fsu.edu/journals/lawreview/downloads/304/kelly.pdf

I guess that if you allow some form of genital mutilation, it's not a moral hazard as long as you're not forcing it.

Workplace deaths are a gendered issue. It doesn't have to do directly with feminism. Taking these dangerous jobs is part of the reason men get paid better than women, but feminists won't let you know that big secret!

Suicide is also a gendered issue, doesn't have to be a direct result of feminism.

The vast majority of prisoners are men because of the first point I made.

Doesn't have to be a feminist conspiracy against boys to have them do worse in school, but again, it is a gendered issue and needs to be discussed and addressed.

If a man is going to be expected to devote 18+ years of his life to the creation of another, he deserves rights. The fact that only one party carries the fetus isn't a good enough reason for such a lopsided view of this.

Statutory rape link:
Legally Obscene: Rape, Statutory Rape, and Child Support | A Voice for Men

If a man unconsciously has his sperm taken one way or another, he's legally obligated to said child.

Does it matter how often these child custody cases end up? Sheeze. The rule is bad and even if it happens only a few times, it's still grossly unfair.
Again Utah Forces Adoption on Fit Father’s Child « Fathers & Families

Majority of the homeless being men is a gendered issue that feminists (they say they're for equality between genders lol) refuse to address.

Gender isn't as class-stratified as race or ethnicity.

What a fukking assholish response. No, I don't give a shyt about sitting next to a kid, what I do care about is that men are assumed to be potential rapists everywhere we go and it's so bad that people wouldn't let a (gasp) man sit next to one on a plane.

Rape on university campuses link:
False Rape Society Archives: Criticisms of the Department of Education's April 4, 2011 'Dear Colleague' letter

Selective service isn't a big deal to you? Google "white feather girls" and develop a better idea of what's expected of men in society. Learn about how men were able to get the voting age lowered for them because they were drafted and it was only fair that they got the right to vote. Women on the other hand just demanded it and they didn't get any additional responsibility for it.

Yeah, men have some extra privilege in some way, but they also have added responsibilities. It used to be that men were celebrated for meeting their obligations. Now... we gotta hear about how women need men like fish need bicycles and how all men are rapists and pedophiles.

 

[Zapp Brannigan]

I'm the salty one here? I think everyone reading this thread is wondering what's got you so tight.

And when did I say anything that indicated an assumption that you hate women?

We've gone over this before. We know what you really think about people that think like me.

 

[TLR Is Mental Poison]

O and @DaygoTaco I asked for examples you knew of personally. When is the last time you or anyone you know was oppressed by feminism? Half the examples you gave have nothing to do with feminism, 2/5ths were statistically insignificant and 1/10th weren't even examples- just continuations/expansions of examples. So for such a pervasive force in society you should have no problems pointing out examples in your actual life, not from a frantic Google search

 

[TLR Is Mental Poison]

@DaygoTaco there is no responsibility a man is forced to take on that a woman isn't. For example men and women are both responsible for providing some means of sustenance for themselves. A man does not have to start a family/get married just like a woman doesn't have to. So crying that men are not being celebrated for taking on voluntary responsibilities and staying on top of them just seems silly. More emotionally driven nonsense w/no bearing in logic. If you want to marry or start a family so society can celebrate you, do yourself and everyone else a favor... don't.

 

[Zapp Brannigan]

But I'm the one resorting to ad-homs. Ok.



Actually, that's exactly what you did. You said that "I'm saying that there are shytty things that men have to deal with and that feminism tries to deny this using lies and propaganda." Then you said there was a "bullshyt lie that "patriarchy hurts men, too" because by definition it doesn't and wouldn't hurt men to begin with."

So you want to claim that feminism lies to deny men's suffering , but then right after, you claim that feminism promotes the idea of male suffering... through lies. If you can't see the simple inconsistency of these two statements, I don't know what you tell you. Either feminism accepts or rejects that men suffer. Whether their explanation for that suffering is right or wrong is a separate issue- you've just contradicted yourself.

We've reached a point where you can't even decide what you're arguing against. It's clear that something is preventing you from being able to discuss this issue rationally. Not sure what that is, but I'd suggest you calm down before you try having these discussions.





How are men vilified when it's pointed out that they suffer from gender roles? It would be vilifying them to say that they didn't suffer at all. But wait, you don't know whether you're saying that feminists deny or affirm male suffering, so this whole point is moot.



I didn't use any equivalencies in that post. Read slower. A general structural homology is not the same thing as equivalence. And yes, it could be used for many different groups, though not all advocacy groups.

Feminism will tell you that "patriarchy hurts men, too" but only in nominal bullshyt ways that require little to no political capital to be spent on their part or when they can further blame men (patriarchy) for the problems that they suffer. Men are vilified in this sense because it's placing the blame on them for the gendered problems that they face. Does that make sense? It's a way to tell men that they're bad and the source of their own problems and allows them to minimize said issues and make it so they're not really a priority as a result.

I'd suggest that you examine your sources more carefully before you start assuming the propaganda you read is true. It just looks bad when you start resorting to violating Godwin's law and are backtracking on your false equivalency (yes, that's what it was).

 

[Zapp Brannigan]

O and @DaygoTaco I asked for examples you knew of personally. When is the last time you or anyone you know was oppressed by feminism? Half the examples you gave have nothing to do with feminism, 2/5ths were statistically insignificant and 1/10th weren't even examples- just continuations/expansions of examples. So for such a pervasive force in society you should have no problems pointing out examples in your actual life, not from a frantic Google search

I suppose that all those sources and lists I gave you were too much, huh?

@DaygoTaco there is no responsibility a man is forced to take on that a woman isn't. For example men and women are both responsible for providing some means of sustenance for themselves. A man does not have to start a family/get married just like a woman doesn't have to. So crying that men are not being celebrated for taking on voluntary responsibilities and staying on top of them just seems silly. More emotionally driven nonsense w/no bearing in logic. If you want to marry or start a family so society can celebrate you, do yourself and everyone else a favor... don't.

Never said that men had to or that women had to... what are you getting at here?

 

[Dusty Bake Activate]

We've gone over this before. We know what you really think about people that think like me.

Yeah, I think your argument is weak in general and downright bizarre in some respects.

I have no personal animus toward you.

 

[Zapp Brannigan]

Yeah, I think your argument is weak in general and downright bizarre in some respects.

I have no personal animus toward you.

You not understanding != Me not making sense at all. Your postings about me in the past strongly suggest otherwise.

 

[Dusty Bake Activate]

You not understanding != Me not making sense at all. Your postings about me in the past strongly suggest otherwise.

You're dealing with intelligent people. You need to understand that people comprehend your arguments fully, they just think they're bullshyt.

Feminism is a "hateful ideology" Feminism at its core is just a social movement for equal socioeconomic and political statusfor women after centuries of it being denied. You can argue that the movement has gone astray, or been too co-opted by short-sighted or extremist strains, or that much of its focus or motivations have become outdated, but to label the entirety of feminism a "hateful ideology" is fukking absurd and you seem too smart too say something like that.

You're obviously very emotionally invested in this for reasons only you know. Your posts on gender remind me of Gundam's posts on race.