The specter that still haunts capitalism

[ill]

Capitalism isn't starving or under-nourishing of a large chunk of the world's population, even as enough food is produced to feed everyone?

Capitalism is far from perfect but its a far better alternative. Capitalism is the reason the world is rising out of poverty. Less poverty = less hungry people.

 

[Madvillain]

Capitalism is far from perfect but its a far better alternative. Capitalism is the reason the world is rising out of poverty. Less poverty = less hungry people.

I made a thread about this
http://www.thecoli.com/threads/exposing-the-great-poverty-reduction-lie.345644/#

Very debatable. Soviet agriculture sucked for a number of reasons, all of them being the same reasons tsarist agriculture sucked; backwards methods, shytty tools, horrendous infrastructure. The famines of 1930s werent, by in large the results of collectivization, so much as simply a shytty harvest compounded on by a following really shytty harvest. The preceding and following harvests were adequate.

I add a disclaimer that I mean no offense to you if your family was affected by those shortages. And I also admit I may be biased in that one of my professors is a leading critic of the holodomer as genocide thesis.

Was in a Leninist group in college and they put me on some stuff to read, and Reddit's Communist sub has some literature on this too. I'll be honest, it's not at the top of my list of pressing things to read but I'm still interested. We'll have a good thread about this one day.

 

[Tate]

Was in a Leninist group in college and they put me on some stuff to read, and Reddit's Communist sub has some literature on this too. I'll be honest, it's not at the top of my list of pressing things to read but I'm still interested. We'll have a good thread about this one day.

The amount of literature that has came out challenging the narrative on the ussr is noteworthy. I'm not sure how far I go with believing it but I've seen some crazy shyt. You ever see where Stalin tried to resign like 3 times but was rejected? Now of course the question of earnesty is there but still it gave me pause.

 

[☑︎#VoteDemocrat]

I made a thread about this
http://www.thecoli.com/threads/exposing-the-great-poverty-reduction-lie.345644/#



Was in a Leninist group in college and they put me on some stuff to read, and Reddit's Communist sub has some literature on this too. I'll be honest, it's not at the top of my list of pressing things to read but I'm still interested. We'll have a good thread about this one day.

Wait, so it wasn't the fact that they had admittedly shytty resources...but that the weather was bad?



Dude skipped right over ACTUAL flaws and blamed it on the climate

 

[☑︎#VoteDemocrat]

Very debatable. Soviet agriculture sucked for a number of reasons, all of them being the same reasons tsarist agriculture sucked; backwards methods, shytty tools, horrendous infrastructure. The famines of 1930s werent, by in large the results of collectivization, so much as simply a shytty harvest compounded on by a following really shytty harvest. The preceding and following harvests were adequate.

I add a disclaimer that I mean no offense to you if your family was affected by those shortages. And I also admit I may be biased in that one of my professors is a leading critic of the holodomer as genocide thesis.

The weather fam?

Really?

 

[Berniewood Hogan]

Communism/socialism doesn't work. It never will because of human nature.

THE RISE OF ORGANIZED LABOR UNIONS LED TO BETTER LIVES FOR MILLIONS AND MERELY INCONVENIENCED THE WEALTHY, BROTHER! I DOUBT ANYBODY HERE IS SERIOUSLY PROMOTING CAPITAL C COMMUNISM, BUT WE CAN'T DENY THAT SOME SOCIALISM HAS WORKED FINE AND PEOPLE PREFER IT, DUDE! HOW DO YOU FEEL ABOUT THE SCANDINAVIANS' HYBRID CAPITALIST/SOCIALIST GIMMICK, MEAN GENE?

 

[ill]

THE RISE OF ORGANIZED LABOR UNIONS LED TO BETTER LIVES FOR MILLIONS AND MERELY INCONVENIENCED THE WEALTHY, BROTHER! I DOUBT ANYBODY HERE IS SERIOUSLY PROMOTING CAPITAL C COMMUNISM, BUT WE CAN'T DENY THAT SOME SOCIALISM HAS WORKED FINE AND PEOPLE PREFER IT, DUDE! HOW DO YOU FEEL ABOUT THE SCANDINAVIANS' HYBRID CAPITALIST/SOCIALIST GIMMICK, MEAN GENE?

I didn't deny that some socialism worked. I even said some of its ideals are great for humanity. A hybrid model is the obvious solution but for me, it leans heavily towards the capitalist side. The Scandinavian system is unique because of their location, traditional cultures, and low immigration rates. I think they lean too heavily on the socialist side and that their quality of life is greatly misrepresented.

By late 1992, during the world recession, the country's budgetary problems culminated in frenzied speculation against the Swedish krona. In November of that year the central bank Sveriges Riksbank was forced to abandon fixed exchange rates and let the krona float freely. The currency immediately devalued by 20%, interest rates shot up by a world-record-breaking 500% and unemployment flew to 14%; the government fought back with tax hikes, punishing cuts to the welfare budget and the scrapping of previously relaxed immigration rules

Read more: History of Sweden - Lonely Planet Travel Information

 

[OsO]

I mean, that is a completely ahistorical and contrived scenario - "everyone" meaning the entire working class or including the bourgeoisie? And because reality is created through the course of events and struggle, my projections with regards to specifics would be meaningless. Further, there are many hypothesized forms of organization with regards to your questions on who makes decisions and how resources are distributed. Essentially, those are things that have to be decided by the working class itself in the course of experience and people's preferences.

Not to mention, socialism has to be a global development -- but, if it started in the U.S., that would rock the very foundations of capitalism as the U.S. is the capital of capital ()... the repercussions in the rest of the world after something like that are unpredictable. It would be an amazing inspiration to and opportunity for the working classes in other countries.

So do you think it's even possible to go from our current state to a socialist society ? You're not sounding too confident

I am personally interested in syndicalism, council communism, and De Leonism lately. Basically I identify as a Libertarian Marxist. I lean towards syndicalism as a form of organization but am open to some form of market socialism consisting of worker-owned cooperatives. I am not necessarily opposed to markets.

I'd imagine there would be some parallel institutions, for labor/production and community/social interests - by that I mean that different bodies have to interlock so that there is communication of needs, grievances, etc. Democracy would be infused from the workplace up to the industrial congress and from the neighborhood block up to the highest levels. Direct democracy where possible and transparent representation where necessary (representatives are instantly recallable at all levels).

It sounds good in theory, but we both know in practice things would be different because we're dealing with people and their emotions. Egos tend to come out heavy in these kinds of situations. How do you account for that? This system you're describing would require an immense amount of collaboration and cooperation.

I like where you're going though. Reminds me a little of the old tribal structures.

 

[JahFocus CS]

So do you think it's even possible to go from our current state to a socialist society ? You're not sounding too confident




It sounds good in theory, but we both know in practice things would be different because we're dealing with people and their emotions. Egos tend to come out heavy in these kinds of situations. How do you account for that? This system you're describing would require an immense amount of collaboration and cooperation.

I like where you're going though. Reminds me a little of the old tribal structures.

I think it is possible if the working class fights for its interests. If the working class does not, I think social and ecological catastrophe will occur. I am not someone who believes that capitalism will naturally give way to socialism as it collapses under the weight of its own contradictions. Hence the motto, "socialism or barbarism."

I'm don't decide what happens, the working class does in the process of struggle. What we know is that the masses of people are suffering, despite the immense wealth their labor creates. We know the source of this suffering: exploitative relations of production (private control of the means of production produces social ills such as unemployment, crime, various forms of social divisions stoked by the ruling class such as racism and sexism, etc.). Dealing with the issues means dealing squarely with the problem of the exploitation of labor. There is no way around it.

In the process of fighting to end the exploitation of labor by capital, we can find what works and what doesn't. Some fairly equal mix of planning and markets perhaps. Maybe market socialism is the best that can be accomplished, with worker-operated enterprises producing for exchange in a marketplace (perhaps with some democratic consensus or input). Maybe mostly planning with a splash of market dynamics in there. I can't claim to know because I haven't lived in a revolutionary situation or in a post-revolutionary world. No one can know at this point. Like anything else, it requires doing.

It isn't a matter of devising a foolproof plan to me. Such a thing isn't possible, even if you think about starting and running a business in today's world. You learn by doing... not having some foolproof plan is never an excuse to not move forward.

What kinds of situations do you mean, revolutionary situations or cooperative efforts? In the latter, ego can take forms other than exploitation and its accompanying brutality (war, police violence, etc.)...

 

[OsO]

Bro, mfers don't live in the world, man. They retreat into ideologies instead of finding the proper peg to fit into the hole. And the same cats thinking we on some sociopathic shyt are the people who can find a cause strong enough to latch onto that will justify spilling the blood of its enemies. They don't realize that sociopathy is not only the one thing that prevents a socialist utopia, it is the driving force behind it.

Charismatic svengalis seducing a downtrodden populace into accepting an ideology reeking of unrealistic bullshyt. It's only able to be induced once the subjects are stripped of their identities to be absorbed into the mass. That happens by weaponizing the ideology to blow holes in the subject's persona that doesn't agree with the svengali's idea of a desirable follower. shyt, look at all this "worker" nonsense. One can simply peruse the classifieds or indeed or craigslist and see a multitude of different vocations available. To toss them all together under the banner of "worker" is disingenuous as fukk.

I believe in American exceptionalism wholeheartedly. Because I am an American. I'm not an Afrikan, or a world citizen, or a worker, or a traveler or whatev tf a mf thinks they are. I live in America and have no plans of moving. I speak an American dialect of English and have no plans of seriously learning another language any time soon. These are two simple facts that make it totally counterproductive to assist a foreign entity in any activity that could threaten the best interests of this country as a whole.

I give all sorts of ideas on how I think ppl can achieve their goals, even if their goals are philosophically opposed to my world view ie suggesting black nationalists appeal to the United Nations to make an effective attempt at curtailing police brutality in America. I can do this because I know that most ppl just want to vent and complain and appear to be something rather than actually factually pterodactylly be something.

That's the American way, to achieve so much economic prosperity that superprivileged citizen travel through a logical fallacy wormhole to a zone where they are downtrodden and oppressed. It's easier than realizing ur a lazy delusionally grandiose unskilled worker a$$hole who attaches ur ego to any cause or conflict that makes u feel the endorphins of "I am useful" rush thru ur little veins. If I'm a father to the fatherless, I am the alcoholic, abusive stepfather that occasionally touches his 16 year old stepdaughters to emotionally scar them in retaliation for some perceived slight by their mother. But I occasionally take everyone out for dinner at Golden Corral so things even out.

 

[Free White & 21]

I will reply to a few posts when I get home from work tonight, but it is amazing that people on here think it is crucial to unite on the basis of race (a fukking imaginary concept, albeit one that has real effects) but not even possible or worthwhile to unite on the basis of shared material interests (class struggle by the working class).

Newsflash, racism isn't going ANYWHERE as long as we have capitalism.

The answer to racism (SYSTEMATIC White Supremacy) is justice. Are you saying that socialism is justice?

 

[Slystallion]

People in their 20s are more likely to be gullible about some central system being able to provide for everybody's needs

 

[CHL]

People in their 20s are more likely to be gullible about some central system being able to provide for everybody's needs

What part of democratic and/or market socialism is more centralised than huge corporations with monopolies and oligopolies in non-regulated capitalism?

 

[☑︎#VoteDemocrat]

What part of democratic or market socialism is more centralised than huge corporations with monopolies and oligopolies in non-regulated capitalism?

1. We don't have non-regulated capitalism
2. you're being daft if you keep trotting out conversation kill switches like talking about corporations as if they control the actual governance of society or the transition of goods among consumers.

 

[JahFocus CS]

The answer to racism (SYSTEMATIC White Supremacy) is justice. Are you saying that socialism is justice?

What does this even mean beyond some broad and vague concept that the solution to any unjust situation is "justice?"

What do you believe the origins of race and racism to be? What do you believe racism's function in society is and what do you believe is the mechanism for causing its collapse?