Essential The Official Comic Book Discussion Thread [Support @Neuromancer’s book!]

[WhenWeWereKings]

why should he trust people that dont trust him? he has no problem with mutants or trusting them. theres been a bunch of xmen on avengers squads. and what goal posts have i moved? if the avengers arent to be trusted, then it damn sure shouldnt be the xmen pointing the finger




when your mutant leaders are fine with the most of them living in the sewers until they want to mobilize a force, then they need to be side-eyed. when they constantly take in a flip flopping terrorist, they need to be looked at funny



im not gonna trust someone who constantly tells me to fukk off, no one would. and thats been scotts mo for a minute. say what you want about hank, clint, other scott, and other imprisoned avengers, but not only have they paid their debt to society, but theyve made attempts to earn caps respect.

This is the very definition of moving the goal posts and muddying the water.

Once again the original point was that Cap shouldn't trust the X-men because they have members that have done bad things. But I correctly pointed out that it's a hypocritical stance because there are lots of Avengers who've done bad things and Cap trusts them just fine.

How did we get on the Morlocks, and trying to justify Avenger's bad deeds and which team deals with their own better is beyond me....seems like just some good ol splainin' to me...….yanno, deflection, goal post moving, muddying waters....

Reminds me of the "bu bu bu what about Chicago" critics...….

 

[parallax]

This is the very definition of moving the goal posts and muddying the water.

Once again the original point was that Cap shouldn't trust the X-men because they have members that have done bad things. But I correctly pointed out that it's a hypocritical stance because there are lots of Avengers who've done bad things and Cap trusts them just fine.

How did we get on the Morlocks, and trying to justify Avenger's bad deeds and which team deals with their own better is beyond me....seems like just some good ol splainin' to me...….yanno, deflection, goal post moving, muddying waters....

Reminds me of the "bu bu bu what about Chicago" critics...….

im not trying to justify a thing. trust isnt given, its earned, and key mutants have earned caps trust. but as a whole, he has no reason to trust the xmen because their isolationist ways keep them from being trusted.

 

[Primetime]

Oh my

Marvel make it happen

Avengers Creators Assemble: Jonathan Hickman and Tom Brevoort

Oh my God

 

[Mr. Negative]

you CANT travel to the future and meet yourself!

The moment you leave for the future, you're gone until you arrive in the future!

 

[Mr. Negative]

The Avengers who've done bad stuff "get called out" yet Cap still trusts them however; the mutants he can't trust because they've done bad stuff.. Lotta goal post moving on your behalf....




Getting a whole lotta of splainin' going on for Steve's behavior towards mutants...…..

Somebody in your family fukks up, you're prolly gonna look for reasons. If you find feasible ones, you're prolly gonna forgive, be weary and move on.


If that person is from somebody else's family, though? You prolly arent gonna. If their people forgive them, you prolly aren't gonna trust them either.


This overused ass smiley got nothing to do with that.

 

[nieman]

im not trying to justify a thing. trust isnt given, its earned, and key mutants have earned caps trust. but as a whole, he has no reason to trust the xmen because their isolationist ways keep them from being trusted.

But at the same time, where was Cap during all of the other ish the X-Men went through? Gov't had them registering, Cap didn't care, Gov't sent sentinels, had sentinels monitoring them, Cap didn't care. The cure, gov't experiments, kill squads, Cap didn't care. If he acknowledges what the X-Men (not X-force or any others) stood for, he should've been backing them the entire way. Hell, how many press conferences did they have to give, that he still didn't back them?

Also, the X-Men put plenty of their own on trial. Scott has been "we will trial & judge our own" when he realized nothing was gonna change with them being sent to camps. Scott didn't absolve people for their past crimes until after M-Day, and even then, gov't kept sending folks to annihilate them. Cap would still not let them put Wanda on trial.

Cap is very political. That title is very political, which is what Sam learned the hard way. He didn't back them in public until he formed his own X-Vengers squad, and even then, he booted them from being Avengers. So why should the X-Men trust Cap? It really is mutual.

 

[BXKingPin82]

 

[parallax]

But at the same time, where was Cap during all of the other ish the X-Men went through? Gov't had them registering, Cap didn't care, Gov't sent sentinels, had sentinels monitoring them, Cap didn't care. The cure, gov't experiments, kill squads, Cap didn't care. If he acknowledges what the X-Men (not X-force or any others) stood for, he should've been backing them the entire way. Hell, how many press conferences did they have to give, that he still didn't back them?

Also, the X-Men put plenty of their own on trial. Scott has been "we will trial & judge our own" when he realized nothing was gonna change with them being sent to camps. Scott didn't absolve people for their past crimes until after M-Day, and even then, gov't kept sending folks to annihilate them. Cap would still not let them put Wanda on trial.

Cap is very political. That title is very political, which is what Sam learned the hard way. He didn't back them in public until he formed his own X-Vengers squad, and even then, he booted them from being Avengers. So why should the X-Men trust Cap? It really is mutual.

They lived in different worlds. and were constantly dealing with their own problems, the only time they really interacted was during events. while i feel cap should have done something about genosha, it wasnt like the us govt was on the up and up about that place to begin with

wanda would never stand trial with the xmen, unlike pietro shes always been an avenger, and seeing as how she was constantly being manipulated by either pietro or max, the downfall of mutants was brought on by those two. but their involment is never spoken about.

cap is political but he will put government shyt aside if things are wrong. if the mutants on his squad would have told him about genosha, do you honestly think he would have just left shyt as is? he has never shown to have a problem with mutants and has made efforts to try for peace, which his unity team has shown. i mean it took cosmic fukkery to completely dissolve the team, and it showed that cap was willing to to make the effort.

 

[Mr. Negative]

Blue Devil lookin like Jon Snow out here.

 

[nieman]

They lived in different worlds. and were constantly dealing with their own problems, the only time they really interacted was during events. while i feel cap should have done something about genosha, it wasnt like the us govt was on the up and up about that place to begin with

wanda would never stand trial with the xmen, unlike pietro shes always been an avenger, and seeing as how she was constantly being manipulated by either pietro or max, the downfall of mutants was brought on by those two. but their involment is never spoken about.

cap is political but he will put government shyt aside if things are wrong. if the mutants on his squad would have told him about genosha, do you honestly think he would have just left shyt as is? he has never shown to have a problem with mutants and has made efforts to try for peace, which his unity team has shown. i mean it took cosmic fukkery to completely dissolve the team, and it showed that cap was willing to to make the effort.

You're right. But I feel as if he still knows certain things are going on, and never stepped up, or at least had the back of the X-Men in public. All he had to do was say "I stand with the X-Men. They lay their lives on the lines protecting the world like us."

As for Wanda, whether or not that would've came to the forefront we'll never know, since it ended as it ended.

But Cap has known about shady gov't ish, and I'm not saying he did the wrong thing, because as you said, they're in different worlds. He does fight for the greater good. He just hasn't shown to really care about the little things, if it doesn't cross his path. Perfect example was the MRA vs SRA. Same thing, and even more beneficial for capes over mutants. He took a moral ground against the SRA, but was quiet for the gov't sanctioned MRA. And that's really the history of Cap. He fights for the US' problems, but not the US problems. That Unity Squad was a BS peace-offering, but by then, the damage was done. Cyke has every right to be on some "FYM" after everything. But once again, while the distance has widened over the years, Cap is also right to see them as "wanting to do their own thing" and stay out of it, out of respect. The only problem is that he picks bad times to want to care.

 

[parallax]

You're right. But I feel as if he still knows certain things are going on, and never stepped up, or at least had the back of the X-Men in public. All he had to do was say "I stand with the X-Men. They lay their lives on the lines protecting the world like us."

As for Wanda, whether or not that would've came to the forefront we'll never know, since it ended as it ended.

But Cap has known about shady gov't ish, and I'm not saying he did the wrong thing, because as you said, they're in different worlds. He does fight for the greater good. He just hasn't shown to really care about the little things, if it doesn't cross his path. Perfect example was the MRA vs SRA. Same thing, and even more beneficial for capes over mutants. He took a moral ground against the SRA, but was quiet for the gov't sanctioned MRA. And that's really the history of Cap. He fights for the US' problems, but not the US problems. That Unity Squad was a BS peace-offering, but by then, the damage was done. Cyke has every right to be on some "FYM" after everything. But once again, while the distance has widened over the years, Cap is also right to see them as "wanting to do their own thing" and stay out of it, out of respect. The only problem is that he picks bad times to want to care.

the problem is that cap has no real power outside of fukking someone up. he could denounce until hes blue in the face, and the powers that be would not only brand him a traitor, but outright replace him. look at his interactions in civil war, or his dealings with the illuminati. when people in power think are doing what they want, they dont give a shyt what the boy in blue. scott has every right to be mad at the us, but cap isnt his issue. hes making him the face of his problem since he has no one else to lash out at. the sra isnt more beneficial for capes. that was one of the points of civil war. shyt they were super crooked. i mean mvp died, and instead of doing the right thing, they just clone him because his dna was too valuable. not to mention how th took a girl like cloud 9, broke her and turned her into a soldier, when all she wanted to do was fly on her clouds and how the unity squad a bs peace offering?

 

[AquaCityBoy]

Heroes is Crisis is probably one of the worst comics I have ever read.

This last issue made me legit angry reading it.

 

[richaveli83]

Sir it not muddy the waters it one of the core of conflict between captain america and cyclops IMO and I think another one is that captain america and cyclops come from two different worlds captain america is a member of a traditional superhero team while cyclops is a member of a freedom fighter team. Seeing how hated mutants are in their world cyclops and the rest of the x-men members have adopt the mindset that so long as your willing stand up for mutants to live in peace. it does not matter what evil things you done before of your own free will.so long as you’re willing fight for mutants rights to live in peace your good in their book. While captain america being a more traditional superhero who live in different from the one the mutants have to deal with has the mindset of "The good does not wash the bad nor the bad the good." .

Also Cap was born in the 1920s and came of age during the depression and World War 2. His mentality is still somewhat more traditional than others.

 

[verbalkint]

Heroes is Crisis is probably one of the worst comics I have ever read.

This last issue made me legit angry reading it.

I was digging it but I'm not feeling what they're doing with Wally....at all. My man lost his entire family and catches shoulder shrugs across the board lol.

 

[Bigbigguy]

I honestly think DC pushed Tom Kong to be an star writer too fast

He was getting hot off Omega Men then more so with Vision then they pushed him to the big books where his style doesn't work