Essential The Official Boxing Random Thoughts Thread...All boxing heads ENTER.

LauderdaleBoss

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Pretty much...although the stuff that I saw I posted in the anthony joshua andy ruiz threads was very eye opening to say the least :mjpls:..unless you were a Mexican poster in that case I get it cuz yall were waiting for that heavyweight champion:pachaha:


nikkas be telling on themselves in those fight threads and then come back here like nothing happened. :mjlol:

I don't know why people just can't like who they like. :mindblown:
 

aceboon

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Yeah I’m and I’m European, never made it a secret but why are we talking about race now when the comment said accross the pound like he roots for Wilder cause he’s from the same continent as him?

I never-ever rooted for a fighter just cause he’s European, in fact most of my favorite boxers all time are American. Could care less about being accross the pond. It’s different with each person but the overdriven nationalism/patriotism was always funny to me, including all the ppl who do it in my own country.
Because he had to speak in code so non-Black folks wouldn't start crying about race, if you're not a Black American specifically you're not going to understand.
 

patscorpio

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The 2nd for sure. The first I don’t know

this was at the height of victor conte and BALCO and his designer roids...the cream and clear shyt :heh:..definitely the 2nd fight he was on the shyt..think he also took EPO too
 

LauderdaleBoss

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this was at the height of victor conte and BALCO and his designer roids...the cream and clear shyt :heh:..definitely the 2nd fight he was on the shyt..think he also took EPO too

I remember the boxingtalk interviews where this nikka Shane was saying he was bench pressing 400 lbs.

Not saying that shyt was impossible, but a nikka at his weight pushing that much had me raising an eyebrow. :mjpls:

He didn't even need it since the judges did all the heavy lifting the night of that rematch. :pachaha:
 

patscorpio

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I remember the boxingtalk interviews where this nikka Shane was saying he was bench pressing 400 lbs.

Not saying that shyt was impossible, but a nikka at his weight pushing that much had me raising an eyebrow. :mjpls:

He didn't even need it since the judges did all the heavy lifting the night of that rematch. :pachaha:

yeah ive never even attempted a 400 lb bench press and a cat doing that at 150 something pounds...like you said its not impossible...ive seen a few cases live in the gym myself but yeah its something

#facts on the judges remark :dead:
 

patscorpio

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im not surprised...i said how that shyt is going to play out for him in the charlo bros ppv thread..nothing is going to change at mw unless some upsets happen

i bet you anything if someone on the lesser rung of PBC..esp PBC 160 goes off the platform and takes a belt off GGG or Murata or Andrade...Haymon will make that unification with Mall ASAP

just like how we are getting Charlo-Castano for the undisputed title at 154 thanks to Castano going off the platform to beat Teixeira
 

Derek Lee

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How Vernon Forrest, Al Haymon’s first boxer, set the foundation for PBC’s future empire

Lance Pugmire 5h ago
Vernon Forrest routinely jogged to the top of Georgia’s steeply treacherous Stone Mountain to strengthen his legs and fortify his spirit for the endurance test that was being a world champion boxer.

One bright afternoon, he invited his then-girlfriend, Kitoy Johnson, to join him on the rigorous trek. He held her hand tightly to calm her fear of the staggering heights and turned to her at the peak.

“There’s nothing you and I can’t do together,” Forrest told her, divulging an emotion he so often felt alone and now wanted to share.

“Ever since that day I had such mad love for him,” she recounted recently. “He was so giving and caring. There was nothing he wouldn’t do for you.”

The sort of love that Forrest displayed on the top of Stone Mountain should have continued deep into the future. He had so much more to give. But sadly it didn’t happen that way.

Next month marks the 12-year anniversary of Forrest’s death, and those closest to him are intent to remind that his career accomplishments are enough to spawn a deeper consideration of the two-division champion’s Hall of Fame credentials.

Forrest was the first man to ever defeat then-No. 1 pound-for-pound king Shane Mosley, repeating that unanimous decision victory later in 2002.

While he was defeated twice by crazed strongman Ricardo Mayorga and edged in a majority decision by Sergio Mora, Forrest avenged that loss to Mora by unanimous decision in 2008, winning back the WBC 154-pound title in what would prove to be his final bout.

“I believe Vernon would’ve been the first guy to beat Mayweather — at 154 pounds, not 147,” said Forrest’s final trainer, Hall of Fame fighter Buddy McGirt. “Against Floyd, mentally, Vernon would’ve been at a whole new level. He had that style. That long range. He could do it all.”

International Boxing Hall of Fame Executive Director Ed Brophy said Forrest has never been nominated for the final ballot, noting that “it’s always a judgment call by the historians and writers on our panel.”

Forrest, a 1992 U.S. Olympian from Augusta, Ga., also claims a distinguished place in boxing history as the first pro fighter ever managed by the man now considered the most powerful person in the sport, Al Haymon.



Jermell Charlo, managed by Al Haymon, defends his WBC middleweight title against Juan Macias Montiel on Saturday in Houston. (Esther Linn / Showtime)
Haymon, a reclusive Harvard-educated lawyer who doesn’t speak to reporters, proceeded to represent Floyd Mayweather Jr. and then expanded his roster into the Premier Boxing Champions empire that has broadcast deals with Fox and Showtime. One of his 12 active world champions is Jermall Charlo, who will look to defend his WBC middleweight title against Juan Macias Montiel on Saturday.

PBC ambassador Sam Watson informed Haymon that this story was being published. Haymon maintained his policy of not speaking to reporters. But following a conversation with Haymon regarding Forrest, Watson told The Athletic:

“Of course, Vernon Forrest should be in the Hall of Fame. When we first found Vernon, all he wanted to do was fight … and he delivered, by beating Sugar Shane (Mosley) twice, by becoming a two-division champion. He was the first fighter we ever had. He proved what he could do, he made us so proud and he deserves now to be in the Hall of Fame. No doubt.”

Charlo’s connection to Forrest, however, goes way deeper than just a shared manager.

Back when Forrest trained under veteran cornerman Ronnie Shields at Houston’s Savannah Boxing Club, Charlo was a kid in the same gym.

“I recall everything Vernon did. I’d sit on the side and watch him work with Ronnie, and I was just so happy to meet a professional,” Jermall said. “The way he embraced me and my twin brother (three-belt 154-pound champion Jermell), talking to us at the gym, taking us to the mall to buy me some school shoes … just a nice, authentic guy.”

The uphill climb
Forrest defeated Mosley in the 1992 Olympic Trials and entered the Summer Games in Barcelona as a gold-medal favorite. Unfortunately he was struck by food poisoning and lost his first-round match to British fighter Peter Richardson, whom he had defeated a year earlier at the World Amateur Boxing Championships.

As Oscar De La Hoya parlayed his gold medal that year to worldwide prominence and a fast track toward a championship belt in 1994, Forrest scraped through $4,000 fights (before expenses were deducted), winning his first 13 bouts. He then reached out to his Atlanta stablemate Evander Holyfield and executive assistant Charles Watson for career assistance.

By raising nearly $30,000, Watson facilitated a buyout of Forrest’s contract with a Las Vegas duo who were directing his career.

At Holyfield’s encouraging, Shields worked Forrest through a regimen of hitting pads and quickly became impressed. Forrest, always confident, asked Shields if he could be used as a sparring partner to welterweight champion and pound-for-pound occupant Pernell Whitaker and former welterweight champion Meldrick Taylor.

Whitaker talked trash in an attempt to pierce Forrest’s psyche, and Forrest responded with a biting retort. He didn’t acknowledge fear or intimidation tactics.

“Vernon had a really good jab, and because he was (6-foot), his jab was long, so that gave Pernell some problems,” Shields said. “Vernon had good defense and hand movement and really knew exactly what to do.”

Shields asked Whitaker after their first spirited session, “What’d you think?”

Whitaker replied, “Man, that guy’s a world champion.”

“I felt if he could do that well against Pernell, he could do that well against anybody,” Shields said. “I was in awe every day as they went back and forth. A little after that, I started training him full time.”



Vernon Forrest pressures Sugar Shane Mosley against the ropes in their fight in 2002. (Jesse D Garrabrant / Getty Images)
Holyfield knew young boxers from Augusta hailed from the best amateur program in Georgia, a system devoted to keeping youth from the trouble of street life.

“The kids from there who start boxing at a young age often focus on skill, not power — not just knocking someone out,” Holyfield said. “I had a jab, I had combinations. And Vernon learned skills like that first. Those with skills learn how to apply them and know you can’t knock out every great fighter. It’s a skillful sport, emphasizing endurance and knowledge.”

McGirt recalls being especially struck by Forrest’s dedication to the purest elements of the sweet science.

“Watching him shadowbox was remarkable. He shadowboxed as if he was fighting, and that’s something the old-school fighters did. These kids today don’t,” McGirt said. “I had an old man come to my gym just to watch him shadowbox, not spar.

“Vernon would shadowbox 10 rounds a day during the last week of training. He’d be saturated, dripping wet. If I could get another fighter to shadowbox like him now, they’d be a superstar.”

Bound and determined
Whether it was standing his ground with Whitaker, pushing for greater challenges in the ring or protecting what was his, Forrest was principled.

Holyfield accompanied Forrest to an event connected to the 1996 Olympics in Atlanta when someone snuck up behind Forrest and snatched away his hat. Forrest chased the person down “and beat the daylights out of the guy to get the hat back,” Holyfield said.

The heavyweight counseled his younger stablemate.

“Vernon, you can’t really do that, man. You’re a boxer. You’ll get locked up,” Holyfield said.

“He’s the one who started it. He snatched my goddamn hat,” Forrest replied.

“You’re right, he shouldn’t have done that,” Holyfield answered. “But, man, you gotta look over some things. I have, and I never went to jail. People try to get you off balance. Don’t you realize people plot to do these things?”

Another time near Atlanta, a white man approached Holyfield, bothering him for some money.

“You ain’t got to give him nothing. Do you want me to handle him? They don’t know me,” Forrest said to Holyfield.

“Look, if anything happens, they’ll think I told you to beat him up,” Holyfield responded.

Forrest stewed but nodded that he understood.

“I tried to smooth out these rough edges he had. He didn’t play,” Holyfield said. “If you crossed him or you tried to mess with him, he’d get you. … Vernon had that mentality that if you’re going to do something bad to him, he’s going to do it right back. But his death came just that way.”

The castle’s foundation
Shifting from the concert promotion business to boxing management, Al Haymon first targeted Mosley, a then-lightweight champion who would proceed to defeat De La Hoya twice. Moseley said Haymon offered a $100,000 signing bonus, but they never found an agreement.

Forrest, meanwhile, had issues with his promoters at the time. He had felt crossed, then-manager Watson said, by Main Events promoter Kathy Duva, who told him after three years in the fold without a title shot that he’d “have to pay his dues” in the fourth year before the opportunity would arrive.

“Pay my dues?” Forrest bellowed. “What do you think I’ve been doing?”



Vernon Forrest celebrates with the crowd after defeating Shane Mosley on July 20, 2002. (Brian Bahr / Getty Images)
Hearing Duva’s slight after taking less money on other deals earlier in his career ate at Forrest, and he told trainer Shields, “I’m talking to someone now. I’ll let you know who it is later, but everything’s going to be good.”

He later signed with Haymon as his first client.

After Forrest had been successfully courted, he was dining at a Beverly Hills restaurant with Haymon’s close friend, Sam Watson, when R&B singer Patti LaBelle of “Lady Marmalade” fame walked by. Watson introduced the pair, and LaBelle told Forrest, “I don’t know about fighting, but if you’re with Al Haymon, you’re going to win.”

Charles Watson was in complete agreement.

“Al’s whole goal was to change the sport of boxing by putting more of the power and the decisions into the fighters’ hands,” Watson said. “That’s what Al did with Vernon, and that’s what Al has done for his guys since.”

Charles Watson said he was happy Haymon would take over the agonizing and time-consuming managerial responsibilities like contract crafting and purse negotiation while Watson served as Forrest’s strength and conditioning coach.

Forrest, with a large network of boxer friends, spread the word that Haymon paid him well, flew him first-class and eased his mind from outside-the-ring business so he could concentrate on fighting.

The unbeaten Forrest finally landed his first title shot in 2000, meeting Raul Frank for the IBF welterweight title. And then Forrest cried his eyes out, thinking the nasty cut he suffered from an accidental head-butt quashed his chance to become a champion because it triggered a no-contest outcome.

Shields calmed Forrest by explaining that an immediate rematch would follow. Eight months later, at Madison Square Garden, Forrest dominated Frank and cruised to a unanimous decision triumph to win the belt — in his 33rd pro fight, seven years after De La Hoya won his first strap.

Haymon had watched his boxer brother, Bobby, compromised by the boxing business, but in his new role as a fighter advocate, he immediately began righting some of those wrongs as his fondness for Forrest heightened.

One of Haymon’s first acts was to bring Forrest to HBO’s then-senior vice president Lou DiBella.

“Al doesn’t do anything half-ass. He does research, meets people, makes relationships and then makes up his mind he’s going to do something,” said DiBella, now a veteran promoter. “Vernon was Al’s friend first and a very important person to Al because, prior to Al being a big player in the sport, he had Vernon. He had met the guy, he’d liked the guy, thought he was a good fighter and wanted to make it work for him.”

More than 20 years later, Haymon has guided Mayweather through involvement in the richest prize fights in history against Manny Pacquiao, Conor McGregor, Canelo Alvarez and De La Hoya. PBC currently counts Pacquiao, former heavyweight champion Deontay Wilder and unbeaten welterweight champion Errol Spence Jr. in its powerful stable.
 

Derek Lee

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Sweeter than ‘Sugar’
Wearing a belt, Forrest found his advances toward De La Hoya rebuffed, so he went after his former amateur foe who had just upset “The Golden Boy” in 2000: Mosley.

Even in his position as pound-for-pound No. 1, Mosley had found that beating “the man” doesn’t make you “the man,” settling for three obscure title defenses before he saw Forrest chiding him at a post-fight news conference. Staging a rematch of their Olympic Trials bout as professional unbeatens struck Mosley as the publicity boost his career needed.

“Ok, Vernon, I’ll fight you,” Mosley declared.

Mosley emphasized his “A” side status by donning red, white and blue trunks like Apollo Creed. Forrest kept it simple and savage. Black trunks, cornrow hair, determined expression at the opening bell.

An accidental head-butt caused a cut that bothered Mosley early in the second round, and Forrest pounced. He battered him with flurries punctuated by hard right hands to score two second-round knockdowns en route to a wide unanimous-decision victory that made Forrest the WBC champion.

“With the (nearly 4-inch) height difference, he was like Deontay Wilder with that ability to get the right hand in,” Mosley said. “Me fighting at lightweight for so long, I was used to fighting guys either shorter or the same height as me.

“That was the one thing I didn’t overcome in the first fight, and it still gave me problems in the second because he’d wrap me up with a forklift type of defense, getting both of his arms under mine, raising my hand so I couldn’t really punch. That was a great strategy.”

Those high-profile victories made Forrest the 2002 Fighter of the Year and positioned him for a lucrative shot at two-belt 154-pound champion De La Hoya.

Shields recalls Haymon advising Forrest, “That’s the best fight for you. If you beat Oscar, you can give up the welterweight title, stay at 154 and you’ll be the king there.”

But Forrest admired unified light-heavyweight champion Roy Jones Jr., and Jones suggested Forrest could elevate himself further for De La Hoya by trying to unify the glamorous welterweight division.

“It doesn’t work that way,” Shields recalls Haymon telling Forrest. “Oscar’s the main man right now. He’s going to make all the money.”

Forrest considered it, then returned to his push for a unification against Nicaraguan madman Mayorga, telling Haymon and Shields, “Roy’s right. If I unify, I’ll make more money.”

Training camp for Mayorga was a nightmare because Forrest had taken his Mosley profits to start a limousine service, banking on big business connected to that year’s NBA All-Star Game in Atlanta.

“I’m wrapping his hands and he’s on the phone, cussing at his guys over the cars,” Shields recalls. “Him and I would get into it every day.”

Veteran Olympic coach Al Mitchell assisted Shields, and the wise trainers would plead with Forrest, “Pay attention to what we’re telling you. Don’t take this guy lightly. Do your business after the fight.”

“Don’t worry,” Forrest would respond. “It’s not going to be a hard fight for me. It’s going to be OK.”

The hell-bent Mayorga unleashed a furious attack and stopped Forrest by third-round TKO, repeating the victory by unanimous decision six months later.

Forrest prepared fully for the second Mayorga bout, but Shields felt “things just weren’t connecting” and helped align Forrest with a new trainer, McGirt.

As Haymon proceeded to get Mayweather his defining shot at De La Hoya in what then stood as the richest pay-per-view bout in history in 2007, Forrest posted a 2006 decision victory over former welterweight champion Ike Quartey. He then captured the WBC 154-pound belt by widely defeating Carlos Baldomir on the scorecards in a 2007 bout in Tacoma, Wash.



Vernon Forrest and Sergio Mora traded blows in their WBC super welterweight title fight at the MGM Grand Garden Arena on Sept. 13, 2008. (Jed Jacobsohn / Getty Images)
The next year, he defended his belt against “The Contender” winner Sergio Mora, now a DAZN analyst.

“I didn’t really like him because he bad-mouthed me, called me ‘The Pretender’ and said I didn’t deserve the fight with him, that he was going to knock me out,” Mora said. “It felt to me that there was animosity over him not getting the big fights and feeling he hadn’t gotten the respect he deserved, maybe.”

Forrest’s pre-fight routine of running outside to trim his final pounds was betrayed by a heavy snowfall in Connecticut. He also found himself dehydrated and absent of energy after three rounds because he relied on an extended sauna stay to lose the weight.

Mora’s trainer advised him to rely heavily on a pesky jab, and by doing so, he edged Forrest by majority decision.

Haymon smartly worked for a quick rematch, and the WBC informed Mora he needed to accept a fight date three months later or he’d be stripped of his new belt.

“He caught me celebrating. I agreed to the rematch at the first Antonio Margarito-Miguel Cotto fight in Las Vegas, a drink in one hand, holding a cigar in the second,” Mora said. “I had to lose 30 pounds in six weeks.”

At the news conference faceoff announcing the fight, Forrest inspected the bloated Mora and snarled, “I’m gonna fukk you up.”

Mora would later have to shed three pounds in one hour to make weight for the fight. Forrest attended that second weigh-in, smiling at the sight of the drained Mora and whispering toward him the same words from their earlier faceoff.

“This time, I believed him,” Mora said, and his first loss followed the next night.

Reunited with the belt, Forrest showed up to watch Mosley fight Margarito in Los Angeles in January 2009. After plaster-coated hand wraps were extracted from Margarito, Mosley punished the Mexican to thrill his hometown crowd and regain a welterweight belt.

“I remember right as I came down the steps from the ring, there’s Vernon Forrest waiting for me with a big hug,” Mosley said. “‘Great job! You looked tremendous! Great job!’ It was such a great greeting. I’m forever touched. He had such a great heart.”

The extra mile
In his time away from boxing, Forrest started a passion business project that lives on today. Destiny’s Child, an Atlanta-based organization, provides 24-hour servicing and care for the intellectually disabled. He opened this by inviting some of the first clients to live in his own home.

Forrest was introduced to the need for creating such a business by his then-girlfriend Johnson’s mother, Clementine Burch, a social worker who informed him of the neglect that so many with autism, Down syndrome and other disabilities suffered with.

“Vernon’s mother is like him: compassionate, and he didn’t have a whole lot growing up,” Johnson explained. “He believed once you make it, you give back to others — not in material things, but in his time, by solving problems.”

They started a personal-care home and hired workers. Some days, Forrest was among the caregivers. Johnson recalls him being moved by the patience he was gaining in observing the everyday difficulties of those he was caring for.

This included a man who was non-communicative, wearing diapers.

Providing a cheerful, encouraging presence for the 30 clients back then, Forrest spent an abundance of time with that particular client, Johnson said. Social workers charting the man’s progress were shocked to see him progress out of the diapers, improving his communication skills and learning to eat with a fork.



Vernon Forest poses with clients of Destiny’s Child. (Courtesy of Kitoy Johnson)
Observing those breakthroughs, Forrest “would be almost in tears. It was sheer joy,” Johnson said. “He was always in there with that big smile. He told me whenever he was feeling down, he’d go see the individuals because that’s what brought him happiness.”

Destiny’s Child continues its work today as a million-dollar business, with 40 staff members serving 24 individuals.

Tragic turn
Nursing himself back from a rib injury and angling for a 154-pound title date with Sergio Martinez, Forrest was spending time with his 11-year-old godson in Atlanta on the night of July 25, 2009.

A low-tire-pressure indicator light flashed on the dash of Forrest’s Jaguar, so he pulled into a gas station, telling the boy to go inside an attached convenience store to use the restroom and buy a Snickers and Gatorade as Forrest filled the tire.

Wearing his gold Rolex and a custom diamond ring he’d made for himself inscribed, “4X World Champion,” Forrest was approached from behind by a man, Demario Ware, who told the boxer at gunpoint to part with his valuables.

Forrest obeyed, but as Ware dashed away, Forrest knew he could catch him. He reached inside his glove compartment, grabbed a handgun and chased after Ware. Forrest ultimately approached another man, Charmon Sinkfield, asking if had seen Ware.

Sinkfield, who had been waiting for Ware with getaway driver Jquante Crews, lied and told Forrest no.

So Forrest turned his back and walked away.

Sinkfield then emptied his gun on Forrest, the boxer’s body riddled in the back torso and thigh with eight bullets.

Forrest, at age 38, died at the scene.

“A part of me left when he left this world,” Johnson said. “I don’t know if you’ve ever experienced crying on the inside, but I’d have that, where your chest gets real heavy, the tears start coming. It was just so sad. … I couldn’t believe he took off running, though … if he hadn’t, he’d probably still be here with us today.”

Across boxing’s wide family, cellphones buzzed spreading the horrific news.

Mosley recalled thinking, “How could anybody shoot Vernon? And kill him? … It was just so stunning. You think to yourself, ‘Life is a mystery, just live it to the fullest. Make it heartfelt.’”

Former light heavyweight champion Antonio Tarver was the first one who reached McGirt.

McGirt flashed back to the scenes that set Forrest apart, how he’d go to church each Sunday, how he presented McGirt with his own championship ring.

McGirt sat there and mourned for days.

“To be honest, at that point, a part of me wanted to get out of the game because of the bond I had formed with him,” McGirt said. “I felt in my heart there were not many guys who had that kind of work ethic.

“I guess that’s why people say, ‘Don’t get close to fighters.’ But you know, when you’ve got a great guy like him — an honest guy, a straight-up guy — you can’t help it. It took a big chunk out of me, I’m not going to lie to you.”

DiBella phoned Haymon to express his condolences, and the manager couldn’t bring himself to words as he sobbed inconsolably.

All three men involved in Forrest’s murder are serving life sentences in prison without the possibility of parole.

Johnson remembered the tightness of the Haymon-Forrest bond in family room discussions.

“Al was so down-to-earth. Not flashy, not flamboyant. So genuine, so attentive to ensuring Vernon had everything he needed. He was so dedicated to Vernon as his first fighter,” she said. “I’ve never met anyone like him. He loves boxing, he loved Vernon.

“I’ll read some articles online where it says Al Haymon’s not a real person and I’ll just laugh, thinking, ‘If you guys only knew. …’ He may not be in pictures, but I saw him at work, and from what I saw, I can tell you he’s a wonderful guy.”

Kelly Swanson, Forrest’s former publicist, continues working for Haymon.

“To this day, quite frequently when I speak to Al, he’ll start the conversation by saying, ‘I still really miss our guy,’” Swanson said.

When Jermall Charlo enters the ring on Saturday night, he’ll not only be representing himself and Haymon in the ring, but also the legacy of Forrest. As a child, Charlo emulated Forrest in the gym.

Standing the exact height as Forrest with the same 73-inch reach and a similar style, Charlo says he fights carrying Forrest in his heart.

“I go back and remember his old fights, watching him, like when he fought Shane Mosley,” Charlo said. “I know everything about him. I’ve embraced him. Out of any boxer I’ve ever met, known or studied, I’ve always liked Vernon Forrest the most.

“And when they make a movie out of his story, I’d like to be the fighter who plays him.”
How Vernon Forrest, Al Haymon's first boxer, set the foundation for PBC's future empire – The Athletic
 
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