The Official APOSTLE PAUL thread

2 Up 2 Down

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Ok fair enough. But I think your understanding of Christianity is a subjective one and doesn’t define it.

Your Christianity isn’t “my Christianity”. And I’m actually a follower of Jesus so naturally I’d know better than you (although you haven’t made it clear what you believe :patrice:).

Belief in Paul isn’t what defines someone as a “Christian” neither is it a condition to get “eternal life”

Why is Paul so important to Christianity in your eyes?

I’d say Muhammad is the second most important person in Christianity currently. If you study him and Islam it opens the door to a deeper understanding of the Bible and early Christian history

And considering how Islam is the “fastest growing religion” in the world today, why aren’t you studying the historical Muhammad and Arabia?

Muhammad is more influential and relevant in todays current religious landscape than Paul.

Or do you have special interest in Christianity alone because you USED TO BE one?
Without Paul opening up Christianity to where gentiles didn't have to make changes to join, Christianity would've been a forgotten subset religion of Judaism
 

DoubleClutch

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Without Paul opening up Christianity to where gentiles didn't have to make changes to join, Christianity would've been a forgotten subset religion of Judaism
Breh, Jesus opened up faith in “the father” to everyone by proving it was never closed to begin with.

Now you’re thinking like a 1st century Jew.

Judaism is the story of God setting the stage and paving the way for the messiah to come so people who will know him.

Read the Bible :snoop:

Paul is just relaying the message/teachings of Jesus to “spread the gospel to all ends of the earth”.

“Jesus would’ve failed without Paul”

It nice that this is your opinion. History proves otherwise:

History accounts Jesus death, resurrected, prophethood and title as “king of Jews”….. and that he was Jewish.

Moving on…..

So are you gonna answer:

Were you once a Christian? Raised Christian?

You said you’re not religious but that doesn’t mean anything.

What do you actually believe?

If you’re a Hebrew Israelite just say it :heh:

If you’re Jehovah Witness that fine with me :manny:

Seems like Paul is just a proxy for you to justify not believing in Jesus like mainstream “Christians” do.

You can’t attack Jesus so you aim at Paul and try rewriting history….. excluding Paul.

The problem is, your argument is from pure speculation, imagination and “what if” scenarios in an alternate timeline.

Purely hypothetical. Mental gymnastics.

All this trouble because you have some issue with Christians or the Church? :youngsabo:

Clearly this is the “root” of your Paul obsession.

I could be wrong though :hubie:
 

DoubleClutch

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A little breakdown for those who don’t want to or didn’t watch the video above:

I think the issue that some Jews, Muslims and Hebrew Israelites who think like @2 Up 2 Down
have is with history

They are unsatisfied or just plain envious with how history panned out and that essentially Paul “WON” while not understanding the simple fact that those who write the history typically WIN.

Paul wrote first and was influential. People who can’t accept “losing” I guess…. Are mainly who are non Christians and are angry simply because history didn’t happen in their favor.

They cant change history so they argue from silence or hypotheticals and try to rewrite it.

to do this they jump through hoops and perform mental gymnastics to create fantasy narratives/alternate universes….. and even entire new religions in some cases.

Paul is like the “wrench” in their plans

^ This is the simple answer

But all this ignores the real issue of importance and that is “theology” and what is the foundation of CHRISTIANITY

In the Bible, Galatians 3:2 asks, "Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?":

What Paul taught is based on the “teachings of Jesus” that had existed for years and preexisted his own belief in Jesus

It even predated the term “Christianity” of you look back at the historical accounts

We are talking the early formation years of the new FAITH or Covenant in Judeo- Christian terms

And what people need to understand is BEFORE Paul’s writings was written and even circulated to have the influence it has had today, there already existed:

The original apostles of Jesus who was the foundation of the “BELIEVERS” movement

A community of messianic/Jewish followers of Jesus after news of his resurrection spread

Many new apostles establishing churches based on teachings of Jesus by other apostles

And basically Jesus teachings circulating over years which would be the source of what the four Gospels (we now are familiar with) would draw from and it’s writers used later.

^ despite all this, the way history plays out, PAULS writings are the earliest we have intact of this period and historically a great documentation of early proto Christianity.

Yea the church may have benefited heavily from Paul’s writings as it expanded to Gentiles because of him more than any other writer or Apostle….. I agree. This is a historical fact.

But does this mean PAUL WASNT A CHRISTIAN, his message was heretical or ANTI Jesus or even more so insinuated that “his interpretation of Jesus message” was LESS Jesus based than anyone else’s (you could argue it’s more).

Was he not considered a TRUE Apostle by his peers or fellow Christians?

The ONLY reason Paul consistently has to defend himself is for those who wrongly assume becoming an Apostle is designated by MAN and not GOD.

Should other apostles need to Co Sign someone to preach the Gospel or should those receiving the message be the judge?

2 If to others I am not an apostle, at least I am to you, for you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord. 2 Even if others think I am not an apostle, I certainly am to you. You yourselves are proof that I am the Lord's apostle.

^ the evidence of Paul’s apostleship is his success in spreading the Gospel and winning believers in JESUS

People like @2 Up 2 Down act like Paul was out there teaching “Paulianity” when all Paul does is give Jesus message as it was already understood at the time by ALL The Apostles

The issue of keeping the Law is secondary and a side debate which was is already made clear by Jesus to those who accept HIS teachings.

And that should answer the questions regarding Works vs Faith which Paul addressed:

For if righteousness could be gained through the law, then Christ died for nothing" is a verse from the Bible, Galatians 2:21:

Galatians 2:21 New International Version (NIV)I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!”

^ THIS is the Gospel.

Paul didn’t die for the sins of humanity. And you don’t need Paul for ANYTHING.

No person who call’s themselves “Christian” believes the above.

Don’t confuse Paul’s mission in history with GODs mission in sending Jesus.

This, however, is all assuming you are a believer in Judaism or Jesus as the JEWISH messiah. And my question to anyone NOT identifying as either a Jew or Christian is:

Of what importance is Paul to you anyways?
 
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