The king of “America Bad” geopolitical analysis Noam Chomsky, likely on his way out.

PoorAndDangerous

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The amount of reverence Tankies give a linguists takes on international politics shows that you need someone of Chomsky’s academic cache to give credence to your economic, geopolitical and social policies that have never been applied successfully.

So yes, he’s directly quoting your God who literally called the USA worse than the Soviet Union where you can do this


And not immediately be black bagged and put in one of Chomsky’s “repression centers” that aren’t as bad as Gaza :mjlol:


Cambodian refugee’s “omg they are killing us!”

Chomsky “have you considered you’re CIA? I’m a linguist”

‘your God who literally called the USA worse than the Soviet Union’

He has never said this; your complete lack of nuance is a very unattractive trait
 

LOST IN THE SAUCE

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You tankies often over estimate your cognitive abilities, thus your blathering ridiculousness is often seen as some grand take down of the state when actuality you just sound pathetic and wrong to the average sane person, has to why you wield zero real world political power and only succeed in amplifying the far right who politically you are very much aligned.
GOjEVKFW8AAGT1R
 

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‘your God who literally called the USA worse than the Soviet Union’

He has never said this; your complete lack of nuance is a very unattractive trait




Did you think that was a response to his claim because you're that stupid or because you expect everyone else to be?

He did not "literally call the USA worse than the Soviet Union." Your own link has him saying that ONE ASPECT of access to information in American culture is worse than what was available to Soviet citizens. Either you have no idea what you wrote and don't even know what "literally" means, or you're a disingenuous fool.

Reporters Without Borders gives the USA a press freedom score far below that of Jamaica. Does that mean that Reporters Without Borders is claiming that the USA is a worse country than Jamaica is? Or just that they're worse on ONE aspect of freedom to information?
 

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Sad to see.

I'm not familiar with his entire body of work, but from what I have seen he's usually on point.


Truly one of the greatest of all time.

man illuminated me to reality.

The man is a genius, look at his contributions to linguistics and computer science ( automata theory) . He’s not always on the money with his political commentary, but he has said some really prescient shyt. Plus we share a birthday :wow:

Only read three of his books but loved all of em. A true intellectual giant. :ehh:

@Toussaint is always accusing other people of being propagandists when he might be the worst one on here.

He's not wrong. If US refuse to call what Israel is doing in Palestine where they massacre 40,000+ people as genocide why they consider Srebrenica as Genocide? This is not saying Serbians are innocent but it seems genocide label only apply when you're US adversaries.

America has done a lot of horrible shyt and Noam Chomsky has lived a full and left a lasting legacy.

A rare jew I'll be sad to see gone

A remarkably bad thread about a fascinating scholar and activist who is nearing the end of his life.

Chomsky has been more right about world history in an hour-long debate with Buckley than you'll likely ever be.

Truly insane to distill Chomsky down to tweets 😂😂😂



I do thank y'all for putting some respect on Chomsky's name and breaking up the Gish Gallop of character assassination that was attempted in this thread. I hope the people who step into the thread without being aware of Chomsky take a look at how many people were greatly influenced by him, as well as the depth of venom spit by his enemies here, and consider what kind of person would provoke that level of reaction from some of the worst posters in HL.

Notice the extensive paper I posted on Chomsky and Genocide, written by one of the world's leading experts on genocide, and how not a single one of Chomsky's critics engaged with that paper at all? Or the extensive background I posted on him and how they don't have a single word to say about it, but respond only in social media links and one-liners? Notice how many times one of the Chomsky-haters has been caught lying in this thread, and how they never have a comeback a single time they're caught? See how the entire premise of the thread is that they hate Chomsky because he says "America Bad", yet they have spent the entire thread without even trying to make a single coherent argument against Chomsky's criticisms of American policy and propaganda?
 

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Brilliant takedown of Chomskys attempt to run interference for the Pol Pot regime and any excuse that he was just being skeptical. It’s many pages long so I just cut out some relevant bits.



After the Cataclysm is, according to Chomsky and Herman, concerned primarily with "U.S. global policy and propaganda, and the filtering and distorting effect of Western ideology."(30)Consequently, many of Chomsky's supporters claim that it is unfair to criticize the book on the basis of the impressions it might convey about Vietnam, Laos, or Cambodia. The book includes a disclaimer to that effect: "[W]e have not developed or expressed our views here on the nature of the Indochinese regimes."(31)

This disclaimer, however, comes after nearly 300 pages of arguments that seem to be expressing a very clear set of views. This is surely inevitable: if one is to contend that a particular viewpoint is "filtered" or "distorted," one must have some opinion of what constitutes an unfiltered or undistorted view.

Near the beginning of the chapter on Cambodia, Chomsky and Herman note that "it is surely worthwhile, if one is going to discuss Cambodia at all, to try to comprehend what has in fact taken place there, which is quite impossible if critical standards are abandoned and 'facts' are contrived even out of honest anger or distress."(32) Given that Chomsky and Herman spend the next 150 pages discussing Cambodia, one can assume that the authors are indeed trying to comprehend what had taken place under the Khmer Rouge. Their claim -- that the media was distorting the truth about the Khmer Rouge -- necessarily implies that the image painted by the media was inaccurate.

Falsehoods and misrepresentation abound, according to Chomsky and Herman, and "evidence about Cambodia has a way of crumbling when one begins to look at it closely, a fact that should raise some questions about the examples that have not been investigated because of their lesser prominence in the international campaign."(33)

This theme is consistent throughout the book: the widely accepted view of the Khmer Rouge was based on dubious evidence. Chomsky and Herman begin painting their alternative picture in the book's Preface:

“The ferocious U.S. attack on Indochina left the countries [of Vietnam, Laos, and Cambodia] devastated, facing almost insuperable problems. The agricultural systems of these peasant societies were seriously damaged or destroyed... With the economies in ruins, the foreign aid that kept much of the population alive terminated, and the artificial colonial implantations no longer functioning, it was a condition of survival to turn (or return) the populations to productive work. The victors in Cambodia undertook drastic and often brutal measures to accomplish this task, simply forcing the urban population into the countryside where they were compelled to live the lives of poor peasants, now organized in a decentralized system of communes. At heavy cost, these measures appear to have overcome the dire and destructive consequences of the U.S. war by 1978."

The reference to "brutal measures" suggests that Chomsky and Herman were beginning to back away from the stance in their Nation article, which had implied that Hildebrand and Porter's "very favorable picture" of the Khmer Rouge was more accurate than Barron and Paul's and Ponchaud's negative views. Nonetheless, Chomsky and Herman still seemed unaware -- or unwilling to admit -- that the regime had been an unmitigated disaster. Moreover, they seemed determined to deflect blame away from the Khmer Rouge. Thus, they imply that the Khmer Rouge were forced to implement these "drastic" measures in part because foreign aid had been terminated. They neglect to mention that the foreign aid was terminated by the Khmer Rouge. Francois Ponchaud pointed this out in Year Zero, noting that the Khmer Rouge even refused a transport plane which had been previously loaded with urgently needed medical supplies.(35)

There is similar sophistry in the claim that the urban population was "forced to live the lives of poor peasants." Peasants in years prior to the Khmer Rouge did not suffer the repression imposed upon the evacuees (the "new people") by Angkar. The population was not forced to live the lives of peasants: they were forced to live the lives of slaves.

The claim that the policies implemented by the Khmer Rouge managed to "overcome" the difficulties of the damaged economy is contradicted by the evidence. Khmer Rouge economic policies, if they can even be called that, were brutal, naive, inefficient, and often downright destructive.

In The Quality of Mercy, describing his visit to Cambodia in 1979, William Shawcross noted that there was no way to evaluate the rice production during the Khmer Rouge years:

"Rather astonishingly, rice was being exported again, but the Cambodian people themselves were being deprived of adequate rations throughout much of the country. Afterward, peasants claimed that the vast new fields, dams, and canals that they had been ordered to build rarely worked. Instead they upset the ecological balance of the countryside.
"Once, I was in a boat steaming up a narrow river, just off the Great Lake. I was being taken to see a fishery in one of the richest of the fishing areas. Along with rice, fish is a staple food in Cambodia and the most important source of protein. Long before our old boat came around the bend of the river, an extraordinary smell came wafting out to greet us. The river was jammed with hundreds of thousands of dead fish, packed tight as ice floes. What had happened? I asked. 'Pol Pot' came the reply.
"It turned out that the Khmer Rouge had built a huge dam just upstream from here and the water in this ancient fishing village was now far shallower than it had ever been before. In the heat of the dry-season sun the fish had, quite simply, cooked."


The Cambodian communists' economic plans were, at times, utterly surreal. Scholar David Chandler notes that, in a Democratic Kampuchea report on General Political Tasks of 1976, there are three lines devoted to education, and six devoted to urine. The document states that, regarding human urine, "We collect thirty per cent. That leaves a surplus of 70%."(37). These were indicative of the types of policies that Chomsky and Herman claimed had lifted Cambodia out of the ashes of war.

The Preface of After the Cataclysm sets the tone for the entire book: again and again, Chomsky and Herman apply dubious spin to reality. Commenting on the flow of boat people out of Vietnam, for example, Chomsky and Herman claim that "In a sense, the refugee flow from Vietnam in 1978 is comparable to the forced resettlement of the urban population of Cambodia in 1975."(38)How is an exodus of refugees, voluntarily risking their lives to escape a communist regime, in any way comparable to the deadly forced march into the Cambodian countryside?

Rather than expressing concerns about the fate of the Khmer people, Chomsky and Herman seem primarily concerned with the "abuse" directed at the Khmer Rouge regime:

While all of the countries of Indochina have been subjected to endless denunciations in the West for their 'loathsome' qualities and unaccountable failure to find humane solutions to their problems, Cambodia was a particular target of abuse. In fact, it became virtually a matter of dogma in the West that the regime was the very incarnation of evil with no redeeming qualities, and that the handful of demonic creatures who had somehow taken over the country were systematically massacring and starving the population

Whether or not this was a matter of "dogma" hardly seems important in the context of the larger question: was the regime really systematically murdering and starving its people? From time to time, Chomsky and Herman acknowledge that there were, perhaps, some bad things happening in Cambodia, but they quickly shift focus back to their propaganda model. After arguing that, in Vietnam, the treatment of "collaborators" has been "relatively mild,"(40) the authors allowed that the situation in Cambodia was different:

But in the case of Cambodia, there is no difficulty in documenting major atrocities and oppression, primarily from the reports of refugees, since Cambodia has been almost entirely closed to the West since the war's end... The record of atrocities in Cambodia is substantial and often gruesome, but it has by no means satisfied the requirements of Western propagandists, who must labor to shift the blame for the torment of Indochina to the victims of France and the United States. Consequently, there has been extensive fabrication of evidence, a tide that is not stemmed even by repeated exposure

 

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Continued…


Disparaging these sentiments, Chomsky and Herman and describe Lacouture's mea culpa as "deeply wrong."(67) They suggest that "Future victims of imperial savagery will not thank us for assisting in the campaign to restore the public to apathy and conformism so that the subjugation of the weak can continue without annoying domestic impediments."(68)

Apparently, contemporary victims of Communist savagery were less important than the hypothetical future victims of imperialism.

Or were the Khmer really "victims" at all? Chomsky and Herman advance a number of arguments that imply that they weren't. "...how can it be that that a population so oppressed by a handful of fanatics does not rise up and overthrow them?"(69) It is not unlikely, in Chomsky and Herman's view, that "the regime has a modicum of support among the peasants."(70) Noting that the Khmer Rouge attacked both Thailand and Vietnam, Chomsky and Herman suggest that a regime with no popular support would surely find its army unwilling to fight on behalf of their country.(71)Examining the comments of several "specialists" on the willingness of Cambodians to resist the Vietnamese during outbreaks of fighting in 1977, Chomsky and Herman again raise the same point: "It is noteworthy that in the varied attempts to find a solution to this most difficult question, one conceivable hypothesis does not seem to have been considered, even to be rejected: that there was a significant degree of peasant support for the Khmer Rouge and the measures that they had instituted in the countryside."(72)

These arguments are infuriatingly wrong-headed. Consider the implications of the first question: why didn't the population overthrow their oppressors? If the lack of a successful revolt indicates that a government was not oppressive, we must concede that Hitler's Germany, Stalin's Soviet Union, and Mao's China were actually benign. After all, their subjects did not rise up and overthrow them.

Chomsky and Herman do not bother to explain exactly how unarmed peasants living under the most totalitarian regime in modern history were supposed to achieve this spontaneous rebellion.

The idea that Khmer Rouge attacks on Thailand and Vietnam indicate that the Khmer Rouge had popular support is bewildering. This presents a rather unique yardstick for measuring a regime's popularity: apparently, according to this logic, any country that attacks its neighbors must surely be endowed with the support of its populace.

Moreover, Chomsky and Herman's arguments ignore a very basic fact: the military was a privileged class in the Khmer Rouge regime. Khmer Rouge soldiers were not part of the suffering masses. They were part of the apparatus of control.

Finally, it is should be remembered that the book went to press after the Vietnamese invasion of December 1978. The earlier strikes that Vietnam had launched in response to the Khmer Rouge border raids had been limited, and, given that Vietnam quickly withdrew, one could claim that the attacks had been repelled. The December 1978 invasion, however, was the real thing. The result? The Khmer Rouge regime collapsed like a house of cards, in part because of a complete lack of support from the population they had enslaved.(73)

The lack of support was rooted in many things. One in particular bears comment here: the forcible removal of residents from their homes. The evacuation of Phnom Penh in particular surely ranks as one of the regime's most epic violations of basic human rights, and deserves additional discussion.

Chomsky and Herman echo the arguments advanced by Hildebrand and Porter, suggesting that, because of unsanitary conditions and food shortages in the city, the evacuation "may actually have saved lives."(74) As noted above, this claim is contradicted by the evidence. In any case, according to Chomsky and Herman, "The horrendous situation in Phnom Penh (as elsewhere in Cambodia) as the war drew to an end was a direct and immediate consequence of the U.S. assault..."(75)

A reminder is in order here: the U.S. bombing had ended a year and half earlier. And yet the situation in Phnom Penh is still a "direct and immediate consequence" of the U.S. attack... not, apparently, a consequence of the Communist encirclement, or the blockade of the Mekong, or the daily rocket and artillery attacks launched by the Khmer Rouge. The book's underlying theme surfaces again: whatever happens, the U.S. is entirely to blame.

Regardless of who was to blame for conditions inside the city, there is absolutely no evidence to support the contention that the evacuation was done for humanitarian reasons. William Shawcross, commenting on a five-hour speech by Pol Pot, broadcast on Phnom Penh radio, and in a subsequent press conference in Beijing, noted that:

"Pol Pot made no mention of food shortages or famine as the motive for evacuating Phnom Penh -- his explanation is in fact closer to that of Barron and Paul than to that of Hildebrand and Porter. He said the decision to clear the city was made 'before the victory was won, that is in February 1975, because we knew that before the smashing of all sorts of enemy spy organizations, our strength was not enough to defend the revolutionary regime.' In light of this, arguments about the precise quantities of food available in the city in April 1975 become somewhat academic."(76)
It is impossible to ignore Chomsky and Herman's double standards on the issue of the evacuation. Consider their reaction to another forced relocation: the U.S. government's "strategic hamlet" program in South Vietnam. Was the Saigon regime lauded for "saving lives" by removing people from combat zones? Of course not: Chomsky and Herman quite rightly labeled the strategic hamlets as "virtual concentration camps," and described the program as "savage."(77) The irony here is that Chomsky and Herman do indeed detect a double standard with the forced relocations instigated by the U.S., and the forced relocations instigated by the Communists... but they detect it only with regard to the West's criticisms of communist Vietnam's relocation of the Montagnards
 

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There are several points worth raising here. Chomsky and Herman's recurring theme - the unreliability of refugee testimony - is once again put forward. But the specifics here are particularly noteworthy. First, de Beer's comment regarding the executions in Oudong is simply absurd: are we expected to believe that, after confining all foreigners to the French embassy for weeks, the Khmer Rouge would conveniently drive a convoy of journalists past the corpses of those they had murdered? Moreover, there were executions at Oudong. From Ben Kiernan's The Pol Pot Regime:

"In March 1974, CPK forces captured Cambodia's nineteenth-century capital, Oudong. On Mok's orders, it was immediately evacuated. A participant recalls: 'Forty thousand people were sent in all directions. The Khmer Rouge burnt houses everywhere... Uniformed Lon Nol soldiers were executed along the way.'"(86)
Aside from the confirmation of executions, the passage from Kiernan also reinforces the point made by Ponchaud with regard to the evacuation of Phnom Penh: evacuating towns and cities under their control was standard practice for the Khmer Rouge. The evacuation was not a response to starvation: it was established policy.

It is also worth commenting on de Beer's claim that there were false reports of journalists being killed. Perhaps de Beer is correct; perhaps there was such a report. But Chomsky and Herman fail to note a significant fact: in 1970, Communist forces murdered a total of twenty-five journalists in Cambodia.(87)The consequences of this omission are predictable: readers whose only knowledge of Cambodia comes from Chomsky and Herman will confidently proclaim that the stories of the Khmer Rouge murdering reporters is an outright lie.

The inclusion of comments like those of Lundvik and de Beer again suggests that Chomsky and Herman were trying to convey the impression that conditions in Cambodia were not as dire as critics claimed. Why else would Chomsky and Herman cite the accounts of Swedish, Finnish, and Danish Ambassadors, noting that they did not see any sign of "oppression or cruelty," nor signs of starvation?(88) Are we to believe that the fact that the Khmer Rouge did not murder their victims in front of visiting foreign dignitaries is evidence that they did not murder or starve them at all? Why include Swedish Ambassador's comment that Khmer Rouge ideologue Khieu Samphan "gives the impression of being an intellectual of quality"?(89)

Continuing in this same vein, Chomsky and Herman attempt to downplay the significance of child labor by claiming that "vocational training" for twelve-year-old children is "not generally regarded as an atrocity in a poor peasant society."(90)The argument is a waste of ink. No amount of scholarly doublespeak can conceal the fact that child slavery is not "vocational training." :mjlol:

Nonetheless, this argument pales in comparison with some of After the Cataclysm's other misrepresentations. For example, Chomsky and Herman devote three pages to the remarks of Francois Rigaux, a member of a delegation from "the Association Belgique-Kampuchea" in Mid-1978. Supposedly a specialist in "the area of family life," Rigaux claimed that conditions he saw in Cambodia were (in Chomsky and Herman's words) "not unlike that of Western European villages before the industrial revolution, with a strong emphasis on family life. Children over a year of age had collective care during the work day, and he reports efforts to arrange for married couples and families to share related occupations where possible. With the extreme decentralization and local arrangements for personal affairs, bureaucracy appeared to be reduced to a minimum." Chomsky and Herman describe Rigaux's impression of health care in Democratic Kampuchea: "Similarly, medical care is not concentrated in the cities and reserved for the elite but is distributed through the most backward regions with an emphasis on preventative medicine and hygiene."(91)

 

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Brilliant takedown of Chomskys attempt


Don't pretend for a moment that you've ever cared about Cambodia, learned about Cambodia, or have the slightest ability to discern what a "brilliant" essay on Cambodia would look like. In your entire history on this forum, you've never written about the Khmer Rouge's reign of terror or shown the slightest interest in the topic. Don't fool anyone into thinking that you suddenly started caring now. That's why you continue to be limited to copy-paste.

I've spent weeks in Cambodia on multiple occasions, I've walked the killing fields, I've been inside S-21 and talked to one of the few surviving inmates who was selling copies of his book out front. Even just walking there is a harrowing experience, the kind of shyt that's difficult to recover from and never leaves you. I've read four books on Cambodia in addition to several films. During one of my trips there, I stayed with a survivor of Pol Pot's pogrom, a woman who had to flee through the jungle when she was five years old and eventually made it to a refugee camp, and heard her stories of that terror first-hand. The NGO I worked with ran small-scale educational and support programs for Cambodian street children, and in a roundabout way I am still involved in supporting an NGO doing work there. The plight of their people is burned into me and that's why I've written about Cambodia and their trauma dozens of times on this site.

Unlike you, who never has given the slightest indication of giving a shyt until you had an intellectual opponent you wanted to take down.

Have you even read Chomsky, ever? Do you have the slightest knowledge of his positions that didn't come from things you were told to say by your social media feed?
 

Mister Terrific

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apparently the linguist is not open to critique

:heh:
Apparently I’m supposed to revere Michael Jordan’s opinion on badminton?
Damn, brought the receipts. :huhldup:
Let’s test his theory, I’m on a U.S. VPN





Seems fine. Weird. It’s almost like the linguist was engaging in hyperbole.
 

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Seems fine. Weird. It’s almost like the linguist was engaging in hyperbole.


That's funny - you can now identify hyperbole on his part (which he does use), but can't acknowledge the falsehoods in your own claim that he "literally said the USA was worse than the Soviet Union" even after two different commenters pointed them out to you? Or were you just "engaging in hyperbole" too?
 

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Since @Toussaint thinks Chomsky is a mere "linguist" (not that @Toussaint even knows what that is) and seems unaware of Chomsky's contributions to human knowledge, I'll lay out a short summary.



* A 2005 poll conducted by Foreign Policy and Prospect, hardly bastions of left-wing thought, named Chomsky as the world’s leading intellectual.



* Chomsky is the most-cited author of the last 150 years. The only historical authors quoted even close to as often as him are Shakespeare and Marx. To this day he is continuously quoted in linguistics, psychology, philosophy, education, cognitive science, computer science, music theory, media studies, and political science, among other fields.



* Chomsky is considered the greatest linguist in history. He’s almost entirely responsible for the existence of linguistics as a scientific field – everyone who does modern linguistics is either building off of Chomsky or responding directly to him.



* Chomsky revolutionized psychology - his arguments against Behaviorism and its main proponent (B.F. Skinner) helped take down psychology's dominant school of thought at the time, modernizing a second entire field of study.



* The field of cognitive science was inspired in response to Chomsky’s writings against Behaviorism, and Chomsky is considered one of the founders of that discipline.



* The study of computer programming as a cohesive science was undertaken in direct inspiration from Chomsky’s writings on linguistics. Even the creation of certain languages like FORTRAN were undertaken using insights from Chomsky’s linguistics.



* Analytical philosophy, the philosophy of science, and most specifically the philosophy of linguistics were deeply influenced by Chomsky’s work, and he helped moved philosophy away from logical positivism while also opposing the ambiguities of postmodernism.



* Chomsky’s work on corporate media and how it is influenced by both government and cultural factors led to the propaganda model of media criticism and has been a dominant force in media studies.



* Chomsky was a major figure among intellectuals/academia in the Vietnam War protest movement, and his political activism was so threatening to US imperialism that the CIA and Nixon both maintained significant files on him.



* The attention that Chomsky drew to Indonesia’s brutal oppression of East Timor was instrumental in bringing public anger and international collaboration to the issue and helped trigger the series of events that led to East Timor’s independence.



* Chomsky is deeply influential in the anti-capitalist movement, both as an inspirational figure and as an advisor and supporter.



* A 2001 article by right-wing author and activist David Horowitz described Chomsky as, “Without question, the most devious, the most dishonest and -- in this hour of his nation's grave crisis -- the most treacherous intellect in America.” Since that diatribe, history has proven that Bush's ability to pursue the Afghanistan War, the Iraq War, and the Patriot Act and its new surveillance state were largely driven by the collaboration of media with American government propaganda, thus validating Chomsky’s warnings.




Chomsky's essay on the responsibility of intellectuals to oppose their own nation's wrongdoings




Chomsky's essay on America's long history of supporting counter-revolutionary violence




Chomsky's model of propaganda





Manufacturing Consent, Chomsky's treatise on how corporate media aligns with imperial interests

Manugactorinconsent2.jpg





The Fateful Triangle, Chomsky's history of how American-Israeli policy has impacted the Middle East

The_Fateful_Triangle.jpg





Requiem for the American Dream, on how modern capitalism creates inequality and concentrates power

Requiem_for_the_American_Dream_%28book%29.jpg



The video version

 
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