The king of “America Bad” geopolitical analysis Noam Chomsky, likely on his way out.

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Here is David Irving, probably the foremost academic in the area of Holocaust denial and Nazi revisionism


He too was a respected historian and widely quoted like Chomsky.


Notice how, once again, you didn't post jack shyt about Chomsky but are deflecting by posting someone whose statements about the Holocaust are THE EXACT OPPOSITE of what Chomsky has said about it. You haven't once posted a rebuttal of Chomsky's position on an issue you actually care about, you haven't once addressed your own title for the thread, because we all know from previous conversations that you're a lightweight who doesn't know shyt about history beyond, "Rah Rah American Military is Awesome!"


How about we listen to the opinion of someone who isn't a clown? Adam Jones is the author of "Genocide: A Comprehensive Introduction" and numerous other books about genocide, editor of "Journal of Genocide Research" and "Studies in Genocide and Crimes against Humanity", executive director of the NGO Gendercide Watch, and named as one of "Fifty Key Thinkers on the Holocaust and Genocide"


Here is a paper he wrote for Genocide Studies and Prevention entitled "Chomsky and Genocide"



Conclusion

Noam Chomsky’s approach to the discourse of “genocide” may best be described as conflicted. On one hand, he is justifiably cynical about the manipulative and politicized ways in which the term has often been employed, notably by those in positions of political power and media prominence. This is intensified by the term’s deployment against designated enemies (frequently in the context of “humanitarian” interventions); and, contrastingly but correspondingly, the resolute avoidance of “genocide” to inure great powers and their allies to condemnation, and to evade a moral reckoning with the consequences of their own actions, past and present. In one of his most recent comments on the subject, in the foreword to Herman & Peterson’s The Politics of Genocide, Chomsky even suggests that the term should be “expunge[d] ... from the vocabulary,” until these self-serving manipulations can be addressed and rectified.

No-one would expect the modern era’s most renowned linguistic scholar to be inattentive to language, and Chomsky’s critique displays a profound concern with the way political language can be twisted and abused. At the same time, his activist sensibility, combined with the extraordinary rhetorical power of “genocide,” leads him to a passing – but cumulatively significant – deployment of the term in his huge corpus of work. By referencing a few key statements and assembling numerous fragments, it is possible to discern a framing that favors a totalized or near-totalized understanding of the concept. However, with the exception of Nazi genocide, the destruction of indigenous peoples in the Americas, and possible future genocides, Chomsky’s use of “genocide” is hedged with key reservations and qualifications: one is much more likely to find references to “near-genocide,” “virtual genocide,” or “approaching genocide,” and he is readier to cite others’ claims of genocide, albeit supportively, than to advance them without the attendant quotation marks.

Chomsky, then, offers a reasonably coherent and often forceful critique of the misuse of “genocide,” and he also uses it for rhetorical and political effect, with the caveats noted. But this is as far as he has been interested and prepared to go. Unlike a couple of his coauthors (Herman and Pappé), Chomsky displays no particular desire to engage meaningfully or systematically with the genocide framing, or to analyze its applications and possible utility. For the most part, one explores this aspect of his writing and speaking not to understand genocide as a concept, but to better understand Chomsky.

But this would be an unsatisfactory note to end on. Chomsky is hardly the first or the only political critic to evince skepticism toward “genocide,” and to downplay or avoid it in his own work. To the extent that Chomsky has addressed it, he has provided some useful insights into how, like the other politically-loaded terminology he analyzes, it has been prone to misrepresentation, evasion, and obfuscation, often for nefarious reasons. Much more significant is the formative value of his decades of critique in helping generations of questing, activist-inclined minds – including my own – to penetrate the layers of lies and propaganda that envelop us. Many of us would be less hesitant to label as “genocide” atrocities for which Chomsky generally adopts different terms, or to which he assigns a “genocide” framing only with qualifications. In so doing, though, we would be well advised to draw on Chomsky’s painstaking, exhaustive documentation and dissection of such mass crimes – from East Timor to Guatemala and El Salvador, and to varied forms of structural and environmental violence. His is a major, even unparalleled contribution to the study of mass atrocities worldwide, and for this he merits recognition and gratitude.




If you read the full paper, it is clearly objective and careful research by someone who cares a LOT about genocide and is a hugely respected scholar in the field. The purpose of the paper is not to support Chomsky or to destroy Chomsky, but to determine his actual position on genocide across the board. It's real research, rather than the social media bullshyt that's been posted so far.

This is a Higher Learning forum and a few prejudiced idiots are trying to treat it like Twitter.
 

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He doesn't seem very invested in criticizing other empires though... odd.


Wasn't aware of his position re the Khmer Rouge for some reason. That is actually insane. That isn't a hangup on language that is gross distortion of history and facts and people were aware of what was actually happening there at the time.
 

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He doesn't seem very invested in criticizing other empires though... odd.


Wasn't aware of his position re the Khmer Rouge for some reason. That is actually insane. That isn't a hangup on language that is gross distortion of history and facts and people were aware of what was actually happening there at the time.

He also wrote a forward for a book denying the Rwandan genocide.

The Politics of Genocide: Foreword by Noam Chomsky​

by Edward S. Herman and David Peterson
$12.75 – $15.00

New Edition includes “Reflections on The Politics of Genocide,” a new preface by the authors

“In this impressive book, Edward S. Herman and David Peterson examine the uses and abuses of the word “genocide.” They argue persuasively that the label is highly politicized and that in the United States it is used by the government, journalists, and academics to brand as evil those nations and political movements that in one way or another interfere with the imperial interests of U.S. capitalism. Thus the word “genocide” is seldom applied when the perpetrators are U.S. allies (or even the United States itself), while it is used almost indiscriminately when murders are committed or are alleged to have been committed by enemies of the United States and U.S. business interests. One set of rules applies to cases such as U.S. aggression in Vietnam, Israeli oppression of Palestinians, Indonesian slaughter of so-called communists and the people of East Timor, U.S. bombings in Serbia and Kosovo, the U.S. war of “liberation” in Iraq, and mass murders committed by U.S. allies in Rwanda and the Republic of Congo. Another set applies to cases such as Serbian aggression in Kosovo and Bosnia, killings carried out by U.S. enemies in Rwanda and Darfur, Saddam Hussein, any and all actions by Iran, and a host of others.

With its careful and voluminous documentation, close reading of the U.S. media and political and scholarly writing on the subject, and clear and incisive charts, The Politics of Genocide is both a damning condemnation and stunning exposé of a deeply rooted and effective system of propaganda aimed at deceiving the population while promoting the expansion of a cruel and heartless imperial system.”


In The Politics of Genocide (2010), writers Edward S. Herman and David Peterson, while not denying the scale of the killing during the period of extreme violence of April–July 1994, questioned the distribution of the victims for those months, arguing that Hutus comprised the majority of the dead, not Tutsis.[22] Their detractors have charged them with genocide denial,[23][24] accusations that have been rejected by Herman and Peterson.[25][26]

Their book goes much further than others who have questioned the consensus view of the genocide; it states that common knowledge is not simply partly incorrect, but is actually "a propaganda line ... that turned perpetrator and victim upside-down."[27] The two men are critical of fundamental aspects of the Human Rights Watchreport by Alison Des Forges,[28] and maintain that she obfuscates the issue of who assassinated Habyarimana (they argue it was clearly the RPF) and that, contrary to the conclusions of Des Forges's report, the only well-planned regimen of massive violence perpetrated after the assassination was the RPF's invasion to drive the Hutu from power.[29] Herman and Peterson ultimately conclude that the RPF were "prime génocidaires", while the Interahamwe were "the RPF's actual victims."[30]

Their book argues that the accepted version of the events of 1994 implies Rwanda is "the first case in history in which a minority population, suffering destruction at the hands of its tormentors, drove its tormentors from power and assumed control of a country, all in the span of less than one hundred days", a narrative Herman and Peterson deem "incredible in the extreme."[31]

Africa specialist Gerald Caplan criticized Herman and Peterson's account, charging that "why the Hutu members of the government 'couldn't possibly have planned a genocide against the Tutsi' is never remotely explained".[32] Herman and Peterson's position on the genocide was found "deplorable" by James Wizeye, first secretary at the Rwandan High Commission in London.[33]Adam Jones has compared Herman and Peterson's approach to Holocaust denial.[34]


 

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He doesn't seem very invested in criticizing other empires though... odd.

That's a total lie. He criticized British empire throughout his work. He condemned the European genocides of Native Americans in the strongest terms. He was instrumental in exposing the crimes of Indonesia in East Timor and helping set in motion East Timor's independence from Indonesian oppression. He has repeatedly and strongly criticized Israel's treatment of Palestinians to the point where many Jews consider him a race-traitor. He despises Saudi Arabia's actions in Yemen and says it has one of the worst human rights records in the world. He has openly criticized Turkey's actions against the Kurds. He says that World War II was the last justifiable American war as it was necessary to stop Nazi imperialism. And, as I already pointed out, he called the Russian invasion of Ukraine a war crime.

It is true that he talks much, much more about American imperialism than any other country. That is because he is an American and America has been the most powerful imperial force in the world for his entire time. He has far more influence in America than he has in Russia or China, where no one in power has to give a flying fukk about what he has to say. His goal has been to influence American policy or at the very least develop greater public awareness of American policy, and most of his political writings have been in service of that goal.

He doesn't write to virtue signal. Which, as I've pointed out before, seems to be 90% of the objective of your own posts.




Wasn't aware of his position re the Khmer Rouge for some reason. That is actually insane. That isn't a hangup on language that is gross distortion of history and facts and people were aware of what was actually happening there at the time.

That's historically false and proves you didn't read jack shyt of the debate that's already been posted. At the time he wrote that, there was still very little known of what was going on internally in Cambodia as there were hardly any outsiders in the country and American reporting from Southeast Asia was heavily distorted by propaganda. As Chomsky pointed out, several of the reports had been reported contradictorily (exact opposite positions were being attributed to the same reporter) or without any attribution at all. The book he was speaking of with some skepticism was one of the very first reports to bring the atrocities into the public eye. Even Jimmy Carter's administration didn't start condemning the Khmer Rouge's genocide until their final year in power.

I would agree that Chomsky was too slow to recognize the seriousness of what had happened in Cambodia. That slowness grew out of his massive distrust of American information after their intense propaganda campaign surrounding the Vietnamese War. They had outright lied about their involvement in Vietnam throughout the war, outright lied about their involvement in Cambodia, and gone to extensive ends to cover up their own war crimes. They had hidden their involvement in the coup that overthrew Prince Sihanouk and led to the power vacuum that allowed the Khmer Rouge to eventually take power, then lied for decades (up through the 2000s!) about the troops they had fighting in Cambodia. That massive flow of lies from their war efforts led to an innate distrust in new narratives that served American propaganda aims. Even so, Chomsky was generally careful - he didn't deny that those things had happened, but pointed out why the evidence was insufficient or contradictory and needed more sources.

That's something, of course, that you would never worry about.
 

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Found this article interesting

The Left and Genocide​

From Solidarity to Denial​


….

“If one were to trace a moral decline of the Left, one could probably do well starting with the publication of Diana Johnstone’s 2002 book Fools’ Crusade: Yugoslavia, NATO and Western Delusions. Johnstone stated in the book that no evidence exists that much more than 199 men and boys were killed at Srebrenica, and like Chomsky put much of the blame on Bosnian Muslims. The book was praised by Chomsky, along with other big-name Leftists including Tariq Ali and Arundati Roy in a letter to Ordfront. “We regard Johnstone’s Fools’ Crusade as an outstanding work, dissenting from the mainstream view but doing so by an appeal to fact and reason, in a great tradition.’ Chomsky added in a separate interview “Johnstone argues - and, in fact, clearly demonstrates - that a good deal of what has been charged has no basis in fact, and much of it is pure fabrication.”

Johnstone’s book was hardly the only such book. In 2000, Michael Parenti came out with To Kill a Nation: The Attack on Yugoslavia. Perhaps this book could be summed up by the fact that when a Serbian translation of the book appeared in 2002 it contained a forward written by none other than Slobodan Milosevic. Among the book’s claims was that the siege of Sarajevo was an act and that it was the Bosnian forces who were bombing the city. This sort of thing actually set a twisted precedent. Years later this same Leftist element would be screaming about ‘false flag’ chemical attacks in Syria committed by the rebels themselves rather than the Assad dictatorship. Some segments of the Left would also say the massacre of protestors during the Maidan Uprising in Ukraine in 2014 was a false flag to make the government look bad and facilitate a coup.

Edward Herman, Chomsky’s co-author of four books, formed the Srebrenica Research Group whose main purpose was to disseminate ‘revisionist’ views on the massacre (Herman and Chomsky of course also infamously downplayed genocide in Cambodia in an article for The Nation titled “Distortions at Fourth Hand” where they dismissed accounts of Cambodian refugees). Herman called the massacre a “gigantic political fraud”, and “the greatest triumph of propaganda to emerge out of the Balkan Wars”, falsely stating “the claims of 8000 executed have never been verified by forensic or credible witness evidence of anything like this scale of killing.”

Johnstone went on to visit Milosevic at the Hague and offer to contribute to his defense. She currently is a shill for Vladimir Putin. To this day Parenti is listed as a Co-Chairman for something called the Slobodan Milosevic International Committee (other prominent Leftists listed are the late William Blum and Harold Pinter). Edward Herman ended his days arguing that the Hutus were the real victims of genocide in Rwanda and the whole Rwanda affair was a ruse for the U.S. to exploit the resources of Central Africa.

As for Chomsky, perhaps his defenders will plausibly say that his threshold for genocide is simply higher. Yet how does that square with him labeling the American intervention in Afghanistan on October 2001 as a “silent genocide”? Such a characterization was never used by anyone in the years since including Chomsky himself. There is another grotesque layer to this sordid affair. In August 1992, the British TV station ITN published footage of the Serb-run Trnopolje concentration camp (among the journalists reported from the area were Penny Marshall, Ian Williams, Roy Gutman, and The Guardian’s Ed Villiamy). What particularly emerged was the haunting picture of an emaciated Fikret Alic, a Bosnian Muslim. The photo, appearing on the cover of Time magazine among other places, did as much as anything to wake the world’s conscience over the horror in Bosnia.

Shortly thereafter a small British magazine called Living Marxism reprinted a half-assed critique of the photo by a witness for the defense at a subsequent war crimes tribunal claiming that the photo was fake and ITN deliberately misrepresented the story. ITN sued the magazine for libel and since Living Marxism couldn’t bring a single witness to collaborate its nonsense while ITN had first-hand journalistic accounts, Living Marxism got wiped out in the verdict. Of course, much of the Left supported the magazine.

Yet as late 2006, a decade later, there was Noam Chomsky in an interview with Radio Television of Serbia (a station that only a short time before was directly aligned with Milosevic) declaring:

Chomsky: If you look at the coverage, for example there was one famous incident which has completely reshaped the Western opinion and that was the photograph of the thin man behind the barbed wire.

Interviewer: A fraudulent photograph, as it turned out

Chomsky: You remember. The thin men behind the barb-wire so that was Auschwitz and ‘we can’t have Auschwitz again.’

Right around that time Chomsky was invited by Amnesty International to give a talk in Belfast. In response Ed Villiamy, the Guardian journalist who reported on the camps and went on to testify at ten ICTY trials, submitted a resignation letter to Amnesty, referring to a recent interview in The Guardian where Chomsky claimed Villiamy got the story wrong:

In an interview with the Guardian, Professor Chomsky paid me the kind compliment of calling me a good journalist, but added on this occasion (the camps) I had got it wrong. Got what wrong?!?! Got wrong what we saw that day, August 5th, 1992 (I didn’t see him there)? Got wrong the hundreds of thousands of families left bereaved, deported and scattered asunder? Got wrong the hundreds of testimonies I have gathered on murderous brutality?...These people pretend neutrality over Bosnia, but are actually apologists for the Milosevic/Karadzic/Mladic plan, only too pathetic to admit it.”



 

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@Toussaint is always accusing other people of being propagandists when he might be the worst one on here.


I was talking to another poster about whether @Toussaint is actually in the US military or just an insane stan of the US military. Nearly all of our arguments have revolved around him stanning some past or present action of US military forces, but with a complete and total ignorance of anything that was going on outside of what the US military happened to be doing. It's like he has a library of US military actions and US military critiques, but not the slightest information on the nations we happened to be invading at the time. EVERY time we discuss a nation other than the USA, his argument consists entirely of disjointed copy-pastes of articles he just found, often with misinterpretations due to unfamiliarity with the material and absolutely zero coherence between the different things he posts cause he's so obviously making it up as he goes along.

I've never, ever once seen him admit a nuanced position, acknowledge various perspectives, demonstrate a more general understanding of a subject above and beyond his copy-pastes, or indicate that he's changed his mind during a debate. At least not when it comes to the US military. He starts out with his position, fervently gathers the material to defend it, and resolutely ignores every single thing that anyone has to say which might conflict with this thesis that "America Rules!"
 

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Let’s move on to Ukraine





1. Chomsky claims that NATO expansion in Eastern Europe “provoked” Russia into an invasion of Ukraine.

False. Putin has stated time and time again the reasoning for his invasion are imperialist in nature and that this is a blood and soul war as he believes that Ukraine is Russia and the people there Russians. It’s the same justification Hitler made for the conquest of Czechoslovakia and Poland. The incorporation of greater Germany.

You can see in this Tucker Carlson interview he becomes visibly upset and annoyed when the subject of NATO expansion comes up in front of his imperialistic belief in Ukraines lack of ststehood



2. The Ukraine was somehow on the path to NATO membership

Once again categorically false as membership in NATO is notoriously stringent and has to be agreed by all NATO partners in accordance with the country proving its viability through crackdowns on corruption and lack of foreign conflicts. Germany was Russians largest energy importer and would’ve never signed off on a deal placing Ukraine in NATO. Nor was Ukraine ever officially or unofficially considered.

3. Chomsky claims that a strongly armed NATO provoked Russia in a greater war


This flies in the face of everything we know about dictators in that weakness is seized upon. Putin has been clipping off the edges of what he believes to be the Russian sphere of influence for years largely because he was bouyed by NATO indecision and disunity.


4. Ukrainians are majority in favor of a settlement with Russia to end the war and only the procurement of arms is keeping the war going.

A cursory look at any opinion polls within Ukraine would show this is not the case. Majority of Ukrainians support the war and majority of Ukrainians do not believe that they should cede their ancestors homelands for peaceful subjugation.

Also, the US went without sending much of any aid to Ukraine for 6th months and the front did not collapse and Russia made meager games of any. Ukrainians have proven their spirit on the battlefield.



5. There were agreements made with the Russian government post collapse of Soviet Union that NATO would not expand


This is one of the most egregious falsities Chomsky has made regarding the conflict. Every treaty made on Ukraine with Russia since the collapse of the Soviet Union has been about honoring Ukraines territorial integrity’s at no point was there an agreement about how Ukraine should govern itself and what states Ukraine should freely associate with. The U.S. doesn’t do “spheres of influence” and has never influenced American foreign policy.




Further reading



 

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You can see how flippant and agitated he gets when challenged on his positions. Bails on the interview with barely any push back and threatens to cancel repeatedly.




Good on the Georgian interviewer. You can see how weak Western far leftists get when confronted with the actual victims of their benefactors.
 
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I just realized that he uses a Haitian name and Haitian picture, but has NEVER once criticized American interference and occupation in Haiti even though it's been fukking brutal. Not a single comment even mentioning it. I'm not sure he knows it exists, but if he does, he's afraid to talk about it.


I was going to post this book as an example before I even realized that Chomsky wrote the introduction. Chomsky literally cares more about Haiti than "@Toussaint" does.








The many major ways in which Haiti has been fukked up by American intervention is well-known, though I think Farmer with his duel medical/anthropology background and benefit of decades in the country does a great job of showing how American policy has driven their continued poverty and distress.

More on the USA and Haiti:








He's silent on that. Not one word even as he pretends to be a Haiti stan, because it goes against his primary goal of celebrating American imperialism.
 
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I just realized that he uses a Haitian name and Haitian picture, but has NEVER once criticized American interference and occupation in Haiti even though it's been fukking brutal. Not a single comment even mentioning it. I'm not sure he knows it exists, but if he does, he's afraid to talk about it.


I was going to post this book as an example before I even realized that Chomsky wrote the introduction. Chomsky literally cares more about Haiti than "@Toussaint" does.








The many major ways in which Haiti has been fukked up by American intervention is well-known, though I think Farmer with his duel medical/anthropology background and benefit of decades in the country does a great job of showing how American policy has driven their continued poverty and distress.

More on the USA and Haiti:








He's silent on that. Not one word even as he pretends to be a Haiti stan, because it goes against his primary goal of celebrating American imperialism.


Thanks for posting this. I had been looking for some info on this topic to share a few months back with some extended Haitian family members of mine.
 

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He's not wrong. If US refuse to call what Israel is doing in Palestine where they massacre 40,000+ people as genocide why they consider Srebrenica as Genocide? This is not saying Serbians are innocent but it seems genocide label only apply when you're US adversaries.


That's what the entire basis of his position is - the word "genocide" has become a political tool that regimes in power use to justify their actions against other nations, but one which they never apply to their allies by the same objective criteria. I posted the article twice already, and the haters have completely ignored it both times because they'd rather cherry-pick quotes that don't line up with the dominant narrative rather than actually understand his position.



This is one of the world's leading experts on genocide, writing for one of the major journals on genocide studies, breaking down Chomsky's use of the word across his career and saying that he is generally consistent in how he uses the term and makes a useful, nuanced contribution to how we view genocides and their place in political discourse:





Remember, Chomsky's #1 contribution to politics in his life was naming and explaining how regimes like America use propaganda and distortion to build support for their policies. That's what his seminal book, Manufacturing Consent, was about. The kind of people who hate Chomsky are the kind of people who don't want their techniques for manipulation to be named. That's why you don't see them engaging with the facts, you don't see them posting honest, objective criticisms, instead you see them partaking in the exact kinds of disingenuous manipulation that Chomsky warns us about.
 

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America has done a lot of horrible shyt and Noam Chomsky has lived a full and left a lasting legacy.

Not sure what you are trying to accomplish with this thread. :camby:
 
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